PTI Questions if UConn's Days of Dominance Are Done

[LoyalFanCT]

All hinges on semantics and definitions. Not unlike the endless and tiresome debates over what constitutes "generational" players or "elite" teams.

To me there's a difference between dominance and excellence.

Dominance to me implies one team head and shoulders above the rest. UConn was no doubt dominant in Stewie, Moriah and Tuck's sophomore through senior years, for example.

Needless to say, those days of dominance are over. Reaching the Final Four umpteen times in a row is certainly excellence but, with no national titles in the past 6 years, not dominance as I would define the term.

Wait till next year. Your arguments fit the men's BB team or women's field hockey team better, Geno's team was in national championship.

 

[Two for Two]

All hinges on semantics and definitions. Not unlike the endless and tiresome debates over what constitutes "generational" players or "elite" teams.

To me there's a difference between dominance and excellence.

Dominance to me implies one team head and shoulders above the rest. UConn was no doubt dominant in Stewie, Moriah and Tuck's sophomore through senior years, for example.

Needless to say, those days of dominance are over. Reaching the Final Four umpteen times in a row is certainly excellence but, with no national titles in the past 6 years, not dominance as I would define the term.

I agree, they are excellent but not dominant. They do however remain the most prominent (and in my opinion that is worth something).

 

[JoePgh]

My concern is that culturally we may not be able to recruit many of the players who will end up winning most of the time going forward. Let me be frank. A coach of color and a woman may well have a cultural advantage with a lot of the top women's players of today. Have you heard one of Staley's coaching sessions? It's like a black church with everyone interrupting constantly with amens and all sorts of interactivity. Her team is made up of a lot of Janiah Barker types. Constant banter and you don't see that in Geno's teams. It's like night and day. Can we relate to the top athletes any more if they culturally feel more comfortable in Dawn's environment? Is uconn too much of a pressure cooker? If you watch Staley coach it looks like a pressure cooker there as well but it's a matter of degrees. Maybe with Dawn it's just her rather than the entire media environment nationwide.

Generally, I completely disagree with your point of view, but I think you may be correct in some of what you say in the above paragraph. As I said in another post, I think Dawn is the first coach since Pat Summitt was in her prime to present a really attractive alternative to Geno among a large portion of top-level recruits. And I think you are generally correct about the kind of players that are attracted to her. She can and probably will build excellent, NC-contending teams from the type of players who are attracted to that culture.

It's worth noting that from about 2005 to 2010, C. Vivian Stringer tried to build her Rutgers teams from the same type of players who are now attracted to Dawn, and she was quite successful. She never won an NC, but then she never had a player like Aliyah Boston.

However, I think it's also quite possible to build an NC-contending team from recruits who are culturally from a different place than that. Aside from UConn's string of Final Fours, what about the consistent success of Stanford (who won an NC last year) and the nearly-similar consistent success of Notre Dame or Oregon? Those schools don't attract the kind of players that you say are drawn to Dawn's teams. Can you imagine Paige, Azzi, Haley Jones, Cameron Brink, Ashlynn Shade, Sonia Citron, Caitlyn Clark, Sabrina Ionescu, or the Hull sisters being drawn to Dawn's culture? I can't. Can you imagine Dawn attracting European players like Dorka, Nika, or Justine Jocyte? Neither can I. What about players like KLS and Napheesa, both of whom were undefeated against South Carolina in their college careers?

I think that you and many others on this board are overgeneralizing from one year's experience, and are failing to appreciate the "sui generis" nature of Aliyah Boston as a player. Take Boston off SC's roster and what do you think the outcome of Sunday night's game would have been (despite all their other very capable players)? I think it would have been a very competitive game that would be decided by single digits, even with UConn's roster limited as it was. If UConn had the fully healthy services of Dorka / Azzi / Evina, UConn would have been favored and would probably have won if SC did not have Boston.

So SC may be "dominant" until Boston moves on (which may not be until 2024 if she uses her COVID year). After that, all bets are off.

Much less importantly, I think you are quite wrong about UConn being a "pressure cooker". I think Geno's sense of humor prevents that, and you see that players like Paige and Nika feel quite comfortable joking around with Geno. You are right that Dawn's players "feel more culturally comfortable" with her than they would with Geno, but it is equally true that Geno's players feel more culturally comfortable with him than they would with Dawn. Are Dawn's type of players going to be consistently more successful than Geno's type of players? Setting Boston aside as a specific, "sui generis" case, I don't think that is clear at all. I think the consistent success of Stanford, UConn, and Notre Dame, and the lesser but still consistent success other programs (Oregon? Indiana? Iowa? Princeton?) makes that apparent.

 

[TCC Kid]

UCONN's current team, which is not the same team as 5 years ago, is only compared to UCONN history.
They absolutely get NO CREDIT for finishing 2. Our "drought" of winning championships continue, they report. Drought compared to whom? Louisville who has never won one. Tenn. who hasn't been to a Final 4 since 2008, or all the schools who never even get to a sweet sixteen.
Geno has pointed out that this current group, this was their first championship game, not their 12th.
I don't agree that finishing second is a bad year, especially with all that we have gone through. ESPN can "stick it" as far as I am concerned.

I agree! With half or more of the team sick and/or injured up to and including the final game Holding SC to only 59 point was nothing shot of remarkable. Remarkable for the depleted team and more so for Geno. He has won the NC every time except this one for nearly 40 years. No coach, I would guess, in any sport has this record at the National Championships.
There are some on TV that think CW and ONO failed as Seniors. They excelled beyond the Peter Principle. They in my belief excelled beyond their native Talent and physical characteristics.

 

[TCC Kid]

While true, there is a difference between "powerhouse" and "dominant."

More often than not they are the same. But I can see the distinction.

 

[TCC Kid]

UConn IS good for women’s basketball now that they are AN annual powerhouse rather than THE only powerhouse.

Without the annual UConn game, would Dawn have been able to build the excitement around her program to the point that AJa stayed home? To the point that Boston came to the Deep South?

Dawn was one Geno put time and effort into helping her become the coach she is. I know that Geno got a lift up to Big time Women's basketball and being viewed by more than Connecticut. Geno gives FORWARD--passes on the gifts he was given. That is how it should be. Yes, Dawn got exposure by Geno's acceptance of playing the Gamecocks. Thanks for understand that fact.

 

[ballerfan]

Very likely a moot point, ballerfan but, as you likely know, the greatest players in many sports have failed miserably as coaches. DT surely has a deep understanding of the game on-court, but I'm not so sure her temperament would lend itself to development of young players and patience with them when they mess up... no question the media would eat it all up if she were to try.

As you said, it’s probably a moot point. It is unlikely that DT or Sue would replace Geno.

I’m going to say something that some people will strongly disagree with. Apologies in advance. Just my opinion. Or my fear. I want to be wrong. But I’m concerned that UConn as a basketball powerhouse might not exist after Geno’s retirement. I’m concerned that Geno is UConn women’s basketball.

I think without Geno UConn can still have a good team and attract good athletes, especially because of its history, but not like before. UConn is not just any great team. It is the most successful team, men’s or women’s, in the history of college sports. And the reason for that is Geno’s talent and wisdom, as well as the strong gravitational pull of his larger than life personality.

I know there are many examples of famous players becoming bad coaches. But again, just in my humble opinion, I think if UConn wants to maintain the magic that Geno created, it’s going to have to take a risk and do something big enough and exciting enough that recruits will still view UConn in awe.

 

[Dognusty]

There’s a lot more to this than talent dispersal. Much of if has to do with the progression of physicality in the game. The desire to make it more like the men’s game has allowed the slow acceptance of much more contact in WCBB. Get yourself a recording of any game from 1994-95. There’s a reason why that basketball was so “pretty”. While it could get scrappy, then didn’t let them bump cutters, hold players and tackle people like they do today. The beauty of Geno and Tara’s flowing offense has been diluted by heavy contact. Physicality is the great equalizer. I don’t find it as enjoyable.

Sounds crazy. What is apparent is the gap UCONN had has gone away. That is fact If u look at the last 6 years. However UCONN will compete and win ships but not at the pace and ease like previously

 

[TeamFirst!]

SC seems to get the players they want in recruiting recently. Maybe part of it is the deep south seems to have an abundance of extremely strong, fast and athletic players and culturally I would say most that really fit that profile are people of color who are probably a lot more like Dawn Staley than Geno or CD. Look around the NBA. 17% of nba players are white. Which demographic would you want to appeal to if you were trying to win a basketball championship? We have a lot of advantages but culture is a huge factor in itself. Prospect marketing to our target demographic, we are at a disadvantage.

 

[Dognusty]

Generally, I completely disagree with your point of view, but I think you may be correct in some of what you say in the above paragraph. As I said in another post, I think Dawn is the first coach since Pat Summitt was in her prime to present a really attractive alternative to Geno among a large portion of top-level recruits. And I think you are generally correct about the kind of players that are attracted to her. She can and probably will build excellent, NC-contending teams from the type of players who are attracted to that culture.

It's worth noting that from about 2005 to 2010, C. Vivian Stringer tried to build her Rutgers teams from the same type of players who are now attracted to Dawn, and she was quite successful. She never won an NC, but then she never had a player like Aliyah Boston.

However, I think it's also quite possible to build an NC-contending team from recruits who are culturally from a different place than that. Aside from UConn's string of Final Fours, what about the consistent success of Stanford (who won an NC last year) and the nearly-similar consistent success of Notre Dame or Oregon? Those schools don't attract the kind of players that you say are drawn to Dawn's teams. Can you imagine Paige, Azzi, Haley Jones, Cameron Brink, Ashlynn Shade, Sonia Citron, Caitlyn Clark, Sabrina Ionescu, or the Hull sisters being drawn to Dawn's culture? I can't. Can you imagine Dawn attracting European players like Dorka, Nika, or Justine Jocyte? Neither can I. What about players like KLS and Napheesa, both of whom were undefeated against South Carolina in their college careers?

I think that you and many others on this board are overgeneralizing from one year's experience, and are failing to appreciate the "sui generis" nature of Aliyah Boston as a player. Take Boston off SC's roster and what do you think the outcome of Sunday night's game would have been (despite all their other very capable players)? I think it would have been a very competitive game that would be decided by single digits, even with UConn's roster limited as it was. If UConn had the fully healthy services of Dorka / Azzi / Evina, UConn would have been favored and would probably have won if SC did not have Boston.

So SC may be "dominant" until Boston moves on (which may not be until 2024 if she uses her COVID year). After that, all bets are off.

Much less importantly, I think you are quite wrong about UConn being a "pressure cooker". I think Geno's sense of humor prevents that, and you see that players like Paige and Nika feel quite comfortable joking around with Geno. You are right that Dawn's players "feel more culturally comfortable" with her than they would with Geno, but it is equally true that Geno's players feel more culturally comfortable with him than they would with Dawn. Are Dawn's type of players going to be consistently more successful than Geno's type of players? Setting Boston aside as a specific, "sui generis" case, I don't think that is clear at all. I think the consistent success of Stanford, UConn, and Notre Dame, and the lesser but still consistent success other programs (Oregon? Indiana? Iowa? Princeton?) makes that apparent.

What the heck. Please define what u consider "Dawn" type players. This whole post screams of low key race bias. Geno would take any player off SC roster and I think Dawn would too. I'm really trying to get where u going with this because personally it feels offensive. Just saying

 

[Papa33]

Ah yes, the ‘90s. Basketball was much less physical then…..says literally no one.

Well . . . not so black and white (or white back then, and black now). Or maybe black and blue now. I can recall the Geno, around 2001-2002 complaining often and long just how much Diana got grabbed, clubbed, and hip-checked as she tried to make cuts through a defense. She was bruised black and blue countless times. And I remember how the "classic" Stanford defense mugged Maya Moore during that infamous first half of scoring drought (I think we "scored" 12 points); one of the Ogwumike literally hugged Maya and held her with both arms every time she moved through the center of Stanford's defense or tried to get clear outside. Less physical, perhaps, but even back then the classics cut-and-score games was changing.

 

[TeamFirst!]

What the heck. Please define what u consider "Dawn" type players. This whole post screams of low key race bias. Geno would take any player off SC roster and I think Dawn would too. I'm really trying to get where u going with this because personally it feels offensive. Just saying

Talking about it at all inevitably means someone will accuse it right? What part of NBA players being 17% white is difficult to understand? Statistically, people of color have proven to be better basketball players in the aggregate. For whatever reason. 70% of pro football players are people of color. The numbers indicate to me that my prospect marketing should be to POC if I want to win a NC. I'm not saying people of color won't play for Geno because they OBVIOUSLY have. I'm also trying not to generalize. I'm looking at the data and it's pretty clear to me what the target demographic should be overall if you want the top players. Geno has had some success with that for sure but going forward, is it an advantage to have an environment where POC may feel more welcome, more comfortable culturally?

 

[Blueballer]

Ah yes, the ‘90s. Basketball was much less physical then…..says literally no one.

I do. And I stand by it. People don't talk about it much because it's been a slow progression and they don't think about it. Sure it was physical but they called more and it wasn't off the charts. Like I said , you don't believe me , watch some highlights from 1994-95. That's why the offense could flow so smoothly.

 

[JonathanXIV]

Wait till next year. Your arguments fit the men's BB team or women's field hockey team better, Geno's team was in national championship.

All hinges on semantics and definitions. Not unlike the endless and tiresome debates over what constitutes "generational" players or "elite" teams.

To me there's a difference between dominance and excellence.

Dominance to me implies one team head and shoulders above the rest. UConn was no doubt dominant in Stewie, Moriah and Tuck's sophomore through senior years, for example.

Needless to say, those days of dominance are over. Reaching the Final Four umpteen times in a row is certainly excellence but, with no national titles in the past 6 years, not dominance as I would define the term.

By your definition (and it's a fair one), there's only been two dominant programs in the past 30 years. Although UConn had at least three dominant periods during that time.

 

[JoePgh]

What the heck. Please define what u consider "Dawn" type players. This whole post screams of low key race bias. Geno would take any player off SC roster and I think Dawn would too. I'm really trying to get where u going with this because personally it feels offensive. Just saying

Did you read the post by @TeamFirst! to which I was replying, or his subsequent posts in this thread? His argument (with which I agree as a factual matter) is not that Geno wouldn't take SC's players, but that they wouldn't choose to play for him rather than Dawn, because they feel a greater cultural affinity for Dawn based on their socio-economic backgrounds being more similar to hers than his.

@TeamFirst! 's further argument (with which I disagree) is that no team can succeed in winning NC's with any regularity unless its demographic composition is similar to that of Dawn's current team. I listed a number of really good to great WBB players from other demographic profiles -- profiles which might lead them to play for Geno or Tara or Kelly Graves rather than Dawn. A team full of such players would have an excellent chance to win one or multiple NC's -- especially if you take a completely unique player such as Aliyah Boston out of the picture.

This is very difficult subject matter to discuss since it does border on racial or class stereotypes, but I think that both @TeamFirst! and I are doing our very best to have an honest discussion without crossing that line. Please give us at least the benefit of presuming positive intent.

 

[NU2BY]

Personally, when the time comes, I wouldn’t mind CD coaching for a couple of years with Berube as her associate head coach and then handing over the reins. That allows continuity for the current players, gives Chris a couple of multi million dollar paydays and lets Carla ease her way in to the head-coaching spot.

But, happily, it’s not an immediate problem that we have to deal with.

That's not going to happen.

 

[Pinhead]

I've seen Geno on PTI multiple times and both hosts have always been accommodating. I've seen many comments regarding PTI as deriding the Huskies and I didn't infer that at all. I contend their opinions are valid, and like many occurrences, that which inhibits a dynasty often empowers the masses.
Beyond that it's simple math. Compare the prowess of today's top high school 100 to even a decade ago. The talent differential between 1 and 100 is likely a fraction of what it was, and negligible between 1 and 10. The numbers alone cannot allow anything but parity to ensue. All this exists with an unprecedented slew of options within ethnic, cultural, transfer portal, NIL and a myriad of other realms. As such I support the inevitable parity as beneficial to WBB as a whole.

 

[NU2BY]

...This is very difficult subject matter to discuss since it does border on racial or class stereotypes, but I think that both @TeamFirst! and I are doing our very best to have an honest discussion without crossing that line. Please give us at least the benefit of presuming positive intent.

Absolutely!!!

 

[jdb50]

At some point the age of the coach is an issue. Maybe more in the women's game than the men's but it is a factor for 18 year old players. I think losing Shea Ralph was a big loss. She may never be back.

 

[Cuango]

Clearly, they (days of dominance) are gone! The landscape of women’s basketball has changed irrevocably! We will not see runs of titles like Stewie, D, and Maya again! There’s just too much talent out there now, both players and coaches. That’s not to say though, that UConn is going away. As long as Geno and Chris are here we will continue to be among the elite teams.

What the heck. Please define what u consider "Dawn" type players. This whole post screams of low key race bias. Geno would take any player off SC roster and I think Dawn would too. I'm really trying to get where u going with this because personally it feels offensive. Just

What the heck. Please define what u consider "Dawn" type players. This whole post screams of low key race bias. Geno would take any player off SC roster and I think Dawn would too. I'm really trying to get where u going with this because personally it feels offensive. Just saying

So, when people talk about “UConn type” players, is that “low key race bias” as well? I doubt seriously if Geno would take any player on SC’s roster or Dawn on UConn’s roster, for that matter! They have different coaching styles and different requirements for their players! Is that “low key race bias” as well? Just saying.

 

[BobbyJ]

Clearly, they (days of dominance) are gone! The landscape of women’s basketball has changed irrevocably! We will not see runs of titles like Stewie, D, and Maya again! There’s just too much talent out there now, both players and coaches. That’s not to say though, that UConn is going away. As long as Geno and Chris are here we will continue to be among the elite teams.

Staley has in several interviews mentioned what she thinks of Ms. Bueckers’ game and I’m confident she’d take her yesterday if she could.

 

[Cuango]

I don’t know the answer to that question, obviously, but Dawn Staley is a tough woman to against.

One thing’s for sure, the rest of women’s basketball better toughen up because Dawn Staley is not going away! Her teams are setting a new standard for tough, unrelenting defense that is going to have to be matched by any teams wanting to take their championship away! She is to women’s basketball imo, what Geno was in the early ‘90s! This is just another, inevitable step in the ongoing evolution of women’s basketball!

While, I much prefer to watch beautiful, free-flowing offensive basketball, I’m very much concerned that only a very few (Stanford, UConn) teams are going to be able to even compete with SC while playing that style of basketball! Of course, next year is when this question of whether the guard is changing will be answered Imo, as this year was not a truly level playing field. Next season, barring more injuries (knock on wood) we will have a more definitive answer to that question. I have faith that Geno will find a way but I don’t envy him!

 

[Cuango]

Staley has in several interviews mentioned what she thinks of Ms. Bueckers’ game and I’m confident she’d take her yesterday if she could.

Bueckers is not “any” player on the roster. Of course she would take her. I doubt there’s a coach in the country who wouldn’t! That’s got nothing to do with what we were discussing though. The question was whether Geno would take any player on SC’s roster or vice versa. I say no because some would not fit in the two coach’s respective schemes or team requirements.

 

[Cuango]

What, you thought he meant NBA ball? Perhaps you could take a few weeks or months and watch the archives before firing up a very

 

[BobbyJ]

Clearly, they (days of dominance) are gone! The landscape of women’s basketball has changed irrevocably! We will not see runs of titles like Stewie, D, and Maya again! There’s just too much talent out there now, both players and coaches. That’s not to say though, that UConn is going away. As long as Geno and Chris are here we will continue to be among the elite teams.

Bueckers is not “any” player on the roster. Of course she would take her. I doubt there’s a coach in the country who wouldn’t! That’s got nothing to do with what we were discussing though. The question was whether Geno would take any player on SC’s roster or vice versa. I say no because some would not fit in the two coach’s respective schemes or team requirements.

Yes, you said ANY or vice versa. If you had said "some would not fit" instead of "any" in your original post, I would not have replied.