PTI Questions if UConn's Days of Dominance Are Done

[Papa33]

Ah yes, the ‘90s. Basketball was much less physical then…..says literally no one.

Well . . . not so black and white (or white back then, and black now). Or maybe black and blue now. I can recall the Geno, around 2001-2002 complaining often and long just how much Diana got grabbed, clubbed, and hip-checked as she tried to make cuts through a defense. She was bruised black and blue countless times. And I remember how the "classic" Stanford defense mugged Maya Moore during that infamous first half of scoring drought (I think we "scored" 12 points); one of the Ogwumike literally hugged Maya and held her with both arms every time she moved through the center of Stanford's defense or tried to get clear outside. Less physical, perhaps, but even back then the classics cut-and-score games was changing.

 

[TeamFirst!]

What the heck. Please define what u consider "Dawn" type players. This whole post screams of low key race bias. Geno would take any player off SC roster and I think Dawn would too. I'm really trying to get where u going with this because personally it feels offensive. Just saying

Talking about it at all inevitably means someone will accuse it right? What part of NBA players being 17% white is difficult to understand? Statistically, people of color have proven to be better basketball players in the aggregate. For whatever reason. 70% of pro football players are people of color. The numbers indicate to me that my prospect marketing should be to POC if I want to win a NC. I'm not saying people of color won't play for Geno because they OBVIOUSLY have. I'm also trying not to generalize. I'm looking at the data and it's pretty clear to me what the target demographic should be overall if you want the top players. Geno has had some success with that for sure but going forward, is it an advantage to have an environment where POC may feel more welcome, more comfortable culturally?

 

[Blue Huskie]

Ah yes, the ‘90s. Basketball was much less physical then…..says literally no one.

I do. And I stand by it. People don't talk about it much because it's been a slow progression and they don't think about it. Sure it was physical but they called more and it wasn't off the charts. Like I said , you don't believe me , watch some highlights from 1994-95. That's why the offense could flow so smoothly.

 

[JonathanXIV]

Wait till next year. Your arguments fit the men's BB team or women's field hockey team better, Geno's team was in national championship.

All hinges on semantics and definitions. Not unlike the endless and tiresome debates over what constitutes "generational" players or "elite" teams.

To me there's a difference between dominance and excellence.

Dominance to me implies one team head and shoulders above the rest. UConn was no doubt dominant in Stewie, Moriah and Tuck's sophomore through senior years, for example.

Needless to say, those days of dominance are over. Reaching the Final Four umpteen times in a row is certainly excellence but, with no national titles in the past 6 years, not dominance as I would define the term.

By your definition (and it's a fair one), there's only been two dominant programs in the past 30 years. Although UConn had at least three dominant periods during that time.

 

[JoePgh]

What the heck. Please define what u consider "Dawn" type players. This whole post screams of low key race bias. Geno would take any player off SC roster and I think Dawn would too. I'm really trying to get where u going with this because personally it feels offensive. Just saying

Did you read the post by @TeamFirst! to which I was replying, or his subsequent posts in this thread? His argument (with which I agree as a factual matter) is not that Geno wouldn't take SC's players, but that they wouldn't choose to play for him rather than Dawn, because they feel a greater cultural affinity for Dawn based on their socio-economic backgrounds being more similar to hers than his.

@TeamFirst! 's further argument (with which I disagree) is that no team can succeed in winning NC's with any regularity unless its demographic composition is similar to that of Dawn's current team. I listed a number of really good to great WBB players from other demographic profiles -- profiles which might lead them to play for Geno or Tara or Kelly Graves rather than Dawn. A team full of such players would have an excellent chance to win one or multiple NC's -- especially if you take a completely unique player such as Aliyah Boston out of the picture.

This is very difficult subject matter to discuss since it does border on racial or class stereotypes, but I think that both @TeamFirst! and I are doing our very best to have an honest discussion without crossing that line. Please give us at least the benefit of presuming positive intent.

 

[NU2BY]

Personally, when the time comes, I wouldn’t mind CD coaching for a couple of years with Berube as her associate head coach and then handing over the reins. That allows continuity for the current players, gives Chris a couple of multi million dollar paydays and lets Carla ease her way in to the head-coaching spot.

But, happily, it’s not an immediate problem that we have to deal with.

That's not going to happen.

 

[Pinhead]

I've seen Geno on PTI multiple times and both hosts have always been accommodating. I've seen many comments regarding PTI as deriding the Huskies and I didn't infer that at all. I contend their opinions are valid, and like many occurrences, that which inhibits a dynasty often empowers the masses.
Beyond that it's simple math. Compare the prowess of today's top high school 100 to even a decade ago. The talent differential between 1 and 100 is likely a fraction of what it was, and negligible between 1 and 10. The numbers alone cannot allow anything but parity to ensue. All this exists with an unprecedented slew of options within ethnic, cultural, transfer portal, NIL and a myriad of other realms. As such I support the inevitable parity as beneficial to WBB as a whole.

 

[NU2BY]

...This is very difficult subject matter to discuss since it does border on racial or class stereotypes, but I think that both @TeamFirst! and I are doing our very best to have an honest discussion without crossing that line. Please give us at least the benefit of presuming positive intent.

Absolutely!!!

 

[jdb50]

At some point the age of the coach is an issue. Maybe more in the women's game than the men's but it is a factor for 18 year old players. I think losing Shea Ralph was a big loss. She may never be back.

 

[Cuango]

Clearly, they (days of dominance) are gone! The landscape of women’s basketball has changed irrevocably! We will not see runs of titles like Stewie, D, and Maya again! There’s just too much talent out there now, both players and coaches. That’s not to say though, that UConn is going away. As long as Geno and Chris are here we will continue to be among the elite teams.

What the heck. Please define what u consider "Dawn" type players. This whole post screams of low key race bias. Geno would take any player off SC roster and I think Dawn would too. I'm really trying to get where u going with this because personally it feels offensive. Just

What the heck. Please define what u consider "Dawn" type players. This whole post screams of low key race bias. Geno would take any player off SC roster and I think Dawn would too. I'm really trying to get where u going with this because personally it feels offensive. Just saying

So, when people talk about “UConn type” players, is that “low key race bias” as well? I doubt seriously if Geno would take any player on SC’s roster or Dawn on UConn’s roster, for that matter! They have different coaching styles and different requirements for their players! Is that “low key race bias” as well? Just saying.

 

[BobbyJ]

Clearly, they (days of dominance) are gone! The landscape of women’s basketball has changed irrevocably! We will not see runs of titles like Stewie, D, and Maya again! There’s just too much talent out there now, both players and coaches. That’s not to say though, that UConn is going away. As long as Geno and Chris are here we will continue to be among the elite teams.

Staley has in several interviews mentioned what she thinks of Ms. Bueckers’ game and I’m confident she’d take her yesterday if she could.

 

[Cuango]

I don’t know the answer to that question, obviously, but Dawn Staley is a tough woman to against.

One thing’s for sure, the rest of women’s basketball better toughen up because Dawn Staley is not going away! Her teams are setting a new standard for tough, unrelenting defense that is going to have to be matched by any teams wanting to take their championship away! She is to women’s basketball imo, what Geno was in the early ‘90s! This is just another, inevitable step in the ongoing evolution of women’s basketball!

While, I much prefer to watch beautiful, free-flowing offensive basketball, I’m very much concerned that only a very few (Stanford, UConn) teams are going to be able to even compete with SC while playing that style of basketball! Of course, next year is when this question of whether the guard is changing will be answered Imo, as this year was not a truly level playing field. Next season, barring more injuries (knock on wood) we will have a more definitive answer to that question. I have faith that Geno will find a way but I don’t envy him!

 

[Cuango]

Staley has in several interviews mentioned what she thinks of Ms. Bueckers’ game and I’m confident she’d take her yesterday if she could.

Bueckers is not “any” player on the roster. Of course she would take her. I doubt there’s a coach in the country who wouldn’t! That’s got nothing to do with what we were discussing though. The question was whether Geno would take any player on SC’s roster or vice versa. I say no because some would not fit in the two coach’s respective schemes or team requirements.

 

[Cuango]

What, you thought he meant NBA ball? Perhaps you could take a few weeks or months and watch the archives before firing up a very

 

[BobbyJ]

Clearly, they (days of dominance) are gone! The landscape of women’s basketball has changed irrevocably! We will not see runs of titles like Stewie, D, and Maya again! There’s just too much talent out there now, both players and coaches. That’s not to say though, that UConn is going away. As long as Geno and Chris are here we will continue to be among the elite teams.

Bueckers is not “any” player on the roster. Of course she would take her. I doubt there’s a coach in the country who wouldn’t! That’s got nothing to do with what we were discussing though. The question was whether Geno would take any player on SC’s roster or vice versa. I say no because some would not fit in the two coach’s respective schemes or team requirements.

Yes, you said ANY or vice versa. If you had said "some would not fit" instead of "any" in your original post, I would not have replied.

 

[TeamFirst!]

Did you read the post by @TeamFirst! to which I was replying, or his subsequent posts in this thread? His argument (with which I agree as a factual matter) is not that Geno wouldn't take SC's players, but that they wouldn't choose to play for him rather than Dawn, because they feel a greater cultural affinity for Dawn based on their socio-economic backgrounds being more similar to hers than his.

@TeamFirst! 's further argument (with which I disagree) is that no team can succeed in winning NC's with any regularity unless its demographic composition is similar to that of Dawn's current team. I listed a number of really good to great WBB players from other demographic profiles -- profiles which might lead them to play for Geno or Tara or Kelly Graves rather than Dawn. A team full of such players would have an excellent chance to win one or multiple NC's -- especially if you take a completely unique player such as Aliyah Boston out of the picture.

This is very difficult subject matter to discuss since it does border on racial or class stereotypes, but I think that both @TeamFirst! and I are doing our very best to have an honest discussion without crossing that line. Please give us at least the benefit of presuming positive intent.

For clarification, I'm not saying Uconn can't succeed. In an earlier post I detailed lots of real advantages Uconn clearly still has for recruitment and program siuccess. I'm saying there are two areas where Uconn might have a disadvantage. 1) Relating culturally to the biggest demographic of great players and 2) Potentially not relating as well as some other coaches to the current generation of players. Obviously Geno is a great coach and overall he has great relationships with players and has all sorts of great attributes ( being great at player development, track record of players having great careers in the WNBA, the promotional advantages and exposure of the uconn program.etct, etc...) but the program also comes with "great expectations" and great pressure. Quotation marks intended in relation to the "Great Expectations" book. Pressure and expectations can be destructive as well as developmental enhancements. Geno needs to find ways to make it fun, reduce the expectations and still maintain the standards and work ethic. For one, he needs to make it clear that being in the finals, in itself, is a great accomplishment and not a failure.

 

[TeamFirst!]

I think Geno would be happy to have almost any player on South Carolina's roster and especially in the top 8-9. Probably any of them. I see no problem children there.

 

[NU2BY]

I could see Sue Bird becoming a good manager. I could see Nika, Evina or Paige becoming a good manager. That doesn't mean I'd give any player the reins to this program without significant coaching experience.

I would give Sue Bird the keys to UConn's castle anytime she would be willing to accept them.

 

[LoyalFanCT]

Geno has a few decent years left. Anyone consider Jen Rizzotti for a future coach or Carla Berube.

​

 

[ballerfan]

Just to be clear, Dawn recruited Paige and wanted her to play at South Carolina, but Paige’s dream was UConn. Still, South Carolina was on Paige’s short list. After Paige got injured in the ND game, Dawn sent out a tweet saying that Paige was a generational player and that she was praying for her.

Geno recruited Boston, and Boston seriously considered UConn. UConn might have ended second in her decision making. It was reported that Boston cried after giving Geno the news that she was going to South Carolina.

Although it has been reported that some players want a coach that looks like them (a women or an African American or both), they also want to win, and many are attracted to Geno and his success. Patterson and Brady, for example.

The bigger problem in my mind is the increasing number of great high school players these days, and they can’t all play for SC, UConn, and Stanford. Bad for UConn but great for the sport.

As I’ve said elsewhere, the biggest challenge for UConn will be Geno’s retirement. If they can’t find a high profile, exciting replacement, UConn is going to lose the talent search. But I’m a bleed blue fan, and I’ll support UConn even if it goes 0-30. Still, I want UConn to dominate.

 

[BRS24]

Geno has a few decent years left. Anyone consider Jen Rizzotti for a future coach or Carla Berube.

​

My choices:

1 -Berube - has shown she can coach in big games, upward growth from Tufts to Princeton
2 - Shea - assuming she wants to leave the south, which right now, is not certain
3 - ????? - will Tamika be ready by then? Is there a dark horse that Geno/coaches/admin have been watching from afar? Kim Barnes Arico? Others?

We need a coach that can show success of building on what is there. As we've seen with other storied programs - Tenn, ND, UCLA MBB, and soon to be Duke, there's a whole lotta hole to fill after legendary coaches that have had continued success.

I don't think Rizzotti has the skillset. Her records at UH and GW weren't overwhelming.

 

[TheFarmFan]

On the topic of recruiting and competing with Dawn, this Slam article from a few weeks ago was a great read. Dawn is a uniquely charismatic woman and it's obvious why 17-year-old WBB players are drawn to her. That she has succeeded at the highest levels as a player has to be so appealing to recruits who aspire to play pro. Geno can't offer that. Nor can Tara, Walz, or Graves. Mulkey can, but her pro experience feels like from the time when dinosaurs roamed the earth since there basically was no pro opportunities.

To me, the most interesting potential competition for Dawn would be Lawson at Duke and Ivey at Notre Dame, because they too have experienced it all as players and can pitch that model of mentoring through lived experience. And I suspect that's what draws people to the possibility of a potential Bird or DT coach.

 

[TeamFirst!]

That Slam article is yet another example of Dawn's cultural advantages. If you listen to her players they tell the story. Dawn markets to the parents and "gets it". She's been there before. She's worked through the problems. She helps them on and off the floor. A lot of it is pure effort. I've read several articles about her and her program and it's clear she has an appealing culture that generates interactivity and involvement with players who can relate to her. Her players "buy into" the process. As with any major program some players are going to find it appealing. Kiki going to UCLA, for example, when everyone expected Stanford or Uconn. It's not all win/loss records or coaching reputations. A lot of it is fit and culture.

 

[fomalhaut]

Hard to see the dominance is finished when they keep on making Final Fours. The Yankees haven’t won a title since 2009, but they’ve won the most games in the last 13 years.

The Yankees have only been in four American League Championship Series (winning none) since their last title in 2009. Not even remotely comparable any more to Connecticut. Somewhat better than Tennessee.

 

[fomalhaut]

One thing’s for sure, the rest of women’s basketball better toughen up because Dawn Staley is not going away! Her teams are setting a new standard for tough, unrelenting defense that is going to have to be matched by any teams wanting to take their championship away!

Connecticut, particularly during the Moore/Stewart era, set a standard for defense that has never been matched. And their defense in the National Championship game, even at partial strength, was as good, if not better, than South Carolina's. (Rebounding was another story, though.)

 

[hoophuskee]

It depends.

If teams can no longer have 23+ year olds transferring while UCONN has an all-time great with a couple other all-americans in which 1 or 2 is also 1st team which they have balance- then they probably will be as dominant again for multipile successive titles.