POY Candidates?

[The deacon]

I would not hold them to a Final Four requirement but, between two worthy candidates I would choose the one who is the leader of the more successful team. A player on a 30-1 team is gonna impress me more than the leader of a 20-11 team. Then, there’s performance against top notch opponents to consider. A top scorer who produces little against a top defensive opponent would be downgraded.

My ideal selection would be a team leader in more categories than just scoring. Defense is so often overlooked. Rebounds and assists matter. Blocked shots. Steals. Buzzer beaters in the clutch.

Then, there is like-ability. A joyous player who is respectful of opponents and teammates will appeal to me more than a me-me-me player.

Between worthy candidates, it can come down to gut-feeling that A is just more worthy than B

Thanks, visitingcock. I'm with you every step of the way. At season's start, I believed the POY would be either Aliyah or Caitlin. That Aliyah has slipped statistically certainly should count for something, whether it's by her own actions or inactions, so to speak.

I just have the feeling, reflected by many comments here on the Boneyard, that Caitlin is somehow diminished in many people's eyes because she scores so much, or is known for her 30-foot shots.

She also has led the country in assists the past two seasons and is well up there again this season, as well as being a 7+ rebounds per game player. Which other players are even close to that triplicate? And she's dramatically improved her defense.

Caitlin also had her biggest games last season against Iowa's toughest Big Ten rivals, in games to decide the conference and tournament titles. As for her 'like-ability,' I'd just suggest you watch (more) Iowa games. Caitlin is as fierce as they come yet respectful and clearly enjoys being around rival players and coaches when the game is over, and her teammates love her. Plus, anyone who doesn't watch her play are depriving themselves.

For those who pay attention to such things, it's ironic that just a few years ago Iowa's Megan Gustafson was the NPOY... she was hardly the player that Caitlin Clark is.

The Hawkeyes are a flawed team, for sure, and I will be surprised if they make it past the Sweet Sixteen again, maybe to the Elite Eight. Measuring Caitlin based on how Iowa does against the Stanfords, UConns and South Carolinas of the WCBB world is unfair. What people should consider is just how great she is that she even has her significantly lesser team in the mix!


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[The deacon]

One last thought about Clark and Paige: their game two years ago was a perfect miniature of their NPOY competition. we all watched it hoping to see the two of them head-to-head, and the result was perfect. Clark’s numbers were a little better than Paige’s, but UConn won decisively, and Paige was key to their victory.

Clark won’t get a rematch with Paige this year, sadly, but she already got one against Paige’s best friend, Azzi, and the result was similar to that other one. UConn and Azzi beat Clark and Iowa. It’s not entirely fair to Clark to put it this way, but it’s not entirely unfair either. I really hope we all get to see many more matchups between Paige and Clark in the coming years.

I'd love to see that, too, Bone Dog.

Yet what I'm really hoping to see is Paige remain healthy long enough that Paige and Caitlin (and Azzi) are teammates on Team USA in the Olympics, and more than once!

 

[The deacon]

I could have spoken more clearly, I suppose. I wasn’t articulating a general rule, but merely thinking about these two players… and trying to make sense of the fact that Paige won NPOY two years ago even though Clark had superior numbers in all the direct stats.

Clark and Reese are in odd situations on their teams, since broader success has eluded them. Reese played well on Maryland but didn’t put up NPOY numbers last year and was thwarted by Stanford in the tournament. She left a perennial top 25 team to seek a better framing of her talents with a rebuilding program. She said she sought a coach who would know how to get the best from her. This is an athlete’s code for “a different style of team play.” She seems to have found this at LSU, but the cost is she has yet to play much against serious competition, leaving room to doubt the value of her dazzling stats.

Given this admittedly rough and ready analysis, which one could easily quibble with, I was casting about for a way to recognize that Reese had found the sort of competition to really show how great she is. Success in post season play would be a suitable framing for her talents. And yes, I am aware the final four comes after the voting.

It’s a similar story for Clark: awesome stats every year means she deserves to be in any NPOY discussion. Unlike Reese’s LSU, Iowa has played against better competition and, at least this year, seems to be in a more competitive conference. But their success in this tougher schedule has been mixed and some teams, including UConn, have showed they can beat Iowa despite Clark’s offense. It’s not a good look for her, which is too bad given the magnitude of her talents. I suspect none of us would say that merely being able to hit deep 3s is enough to win NPOY. We all look for something more, and 2 years ago Paige had it.

How can Clark or Reese demonstrate that they have that elusive quality we’re hoping to find in an NPOY? Post-season success is an obvious place to look for it. But it’s not the only possibility. Imagine someone like Haley Cavinder putting up tremendous numbers when she was at Fresno St — just a thought experiment, not real facts — and ask could such a player be so talented as to win the NPOY in that situation. Seems exceedingly unlikely but not impossible.

By the way, a case for Morrow as NPOY would be sort of like this. DePaul is not so different from Fresno St, an uneven team unable to succeed in an uneven conference. It’s not just that Morrow plays against uneven competition. She doesn’t regularly make her team win against this competition despite her great production.

Could Clark or Reese or Morrow turn their situations around and make it clear their talents are unmatched against any competition? Yes, and it would be wonderful to watch it unfold this season. I think any one of them has a real shot at this prize. No one else is having so great a season as to lock them out of consideration.

Saying Iowa losing to UConn isn't a good look for Clark is just not fair to Caitlin, Bone Dog, no matter how one frames it. Think of who's on the Hawkeyes' team and compare that to the Huskies' roster. Even Czinano, whom I really admire as a scorer in the paint, is almost wholly reliant on Caitlin's passing to get the ball where she needs it.

I'm with you about Reese. She's a really interesting case, especially given she's now been a fixture for two prominent teams. (She's one of my 'five' in a related thread, although I'm not certain that was one of my best decisions).

 

[cancontent]

Thanks, visitingcock. I'm with you every step of the way. At season's start, I believed the POY would be either Aliyah or Caitlin. That Aliyah has slipped statistically certainly should count for something, whether it's by her own actions or inactions, so to speak.

I just have the feeling, reflected by many comments here on the Boneyard, that Caitlin is somehow diminished in many people's eyes because she scores so much, or is known for her 30-foot shots.

She also has led the country in assists the past two seasons and is well up there again this season, as well as being a 7+ rebounds per game player. Which other players are even close to that triplicate? And she's dramatically improved her defense.

Caitlin also had her biggest games last season against Iowa's toughest Big Ten rivals, in games to decide the conference and tournament titles. As for her 'like-ability,' I'd just suggest you watch (more) Iowa games. Caitlin is as fierce as they come yet respectful and clearly enjoys being around rival players and coaches when the game is over, and her teammates love her. Plus, anyone who doesn't watch her play are depriving themselves.

For those who pay attention to such things, it's ironic that just a few years ago Iowa's Megan Gustafson was the NPOY... she was hardly the player that Caitlin Clark is.

The Hawkeyes are a flawed team, for sure, and I will be surprised if they make it past the Sweet Sixteen again, maybe to the Elite Eight. Measuring Caitlin based on how Iowa does against the Stanfords, UConns and South Carolinas of the WCBB world is unfair. What people should consider is just how great she is that she even has her significantly lesser team in the mix!


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Her like-ability is similar to players like Brady and Mahomes of the NFL or Curry of the NBA. There always will be fans who have "issues" but if she were to ever play for their respective team, all is forgiven.

 

[Bone Dog]

For those who pay attention to such things, it's ironic that just a few years ago Iowa's Megan Gustafson was the NPOY... she was hardly the player that Caitlin Clark is.

Excellent post, @The deacon

And this one remark is a real wake up call to everyone to give Clark more credit than she’s getting. She is an awesome talent, and an obvious favorite for NPOY.

Fate has been unkind to her, requiring her to compete for recognition next to Paige. And to make matters worse, she’s still struggling to get that recognition in Paige’s shadow. Paige had a magical season that year, but so did she. And she’s replicated the magic every year.

I’m going to follow your suggestion and try to view Clark on her own terms and see how brightly she shines.

 

[bballnut90]

I would not hold them to a Final Four requirement but, between two worthy candidates I would choose the one who is the leader of the more successful team. A player on a 30-1 team is gonna impress me more than the leader of a 20-11 team. Then, there’s performance against top notch opponents to consider. A top scorer who produces little against a top defensive opponent would be downgraded.

My ideal selection would be a team leader in more categories than just scoring. Defense is so often overlooked. Rebounds and assists matter. Blocked shots. Steals. Buzzer beaters in the clutch.

Then, there is like-ability. A joyous player who is respectful of opponents and teammates will appeal to me more than a me-me-me player.

Between worthy candidates, it can come down to gut-feeling that A is just more worthy than B

Ironically this is quite similar to the SEC POY race a few years ago when Victoria Vivians was the leader of the better team (undefeated Mississippi State) and had good numbers but A'ja Wilson's were better on a worse team. A'ja took home all of the hardware despite many feeling Vivians got robbed.

 

[bballnut90]

Excellent post, @The deacon

And this one remark is a real wake up call to everyone to give Clark more credit than she’s getting. She is an awesome talent, and an obvious favorite for NPOY.

Fate has been unkind to her, requiring her to compete for recognition next to Paige. And to make matters worse, she’s still struggling to get that recognition in Paige’s shadow. Paige had a magical season that year, but so did she. And she’s replicated the magic every year.

I’m going to follow your suggestion and try to view Clark on her own terms and see how brightly she shines.

Just wanted to point out, I don't think Clark has been in Bueckers shadow or lacks recognition. Paige has the benefit of a massive social media following, but from a women's basketball fan standout, the Clark/Bueckers comparison was one of the biggest storylines of their freshman season, and Caitlin got a lot of attention during the Big Ten tournament and their NCAA run even if it was less than Bueckers. Compare the attention those 2 received compared to Morrow last year (who had a comparatively brilliant freshman season) and it is night and day. Last year Clark was one of the biggest faces in women's basketball as she made a strong push vs Boston for POY, while Paige was injured most of the year. This year it's the same story except Paige is out the full season and Clark is now the likely frontrunner for POY.

 

[Bone Dog]

This may feel like a swerve, but it isn’t. I watched last year’s UConn-ND game today — yes, the one where Paige got injured. Anyway, it was a really good game, well played, well officiated, both teams played well for early December. But Paige was simply a cut above everyone else on the court.

I mean Citron had a good game, as did Mabrey and Miles. Liv and Caroline and Aaliyah had better games. But Paige just dominated everything. When I think about NPOY evaluations, what I’m getting at is that we may have been spoiled by Paige. She’s a sublime talent, and those don’t come along all that often. It’s the steals, the passing, the clutch daggers — I’m particularly fond of her midrange jumpers which she can get going right or left. Fate and a bum knee stole her season that year (and this year), and as crestfallen as all of are about that, it shouldn’t color everything about the way we experience this season.

Anyway, it may not be fair to hold this year’s candidates to a standard based on Paige’s level of play. Clark and Morrow (I’d add Siegrist) are having excellent seasons, and Brink and Boston may end up having great seasons too. And others may surprise us in February and March. They shouldn’t have to be Paige to be NPOYs. I’m thinking about @The deacon ’s reminder about Gustafson. Not every NPOY is as tremendous as Paige. But they can still be excellent and the best player of that year.

 

[DefenseBB]

Ok it's Feb 6 so I have updated stats for 37 players across the P6 conferences. They are sorted by conference, then by efficiency rating. As I had most of these players stats from previous posts, I added the ones I was aware of who have shown some mid-season form. And yes, I have all 5 UConn starters as I track their stats. The Big 12 is a bit light on Quality players in my view-I only have 3. As usual, I trust my brethren here to let me know who I have missed. And yes, @Dillon77 I did add "Robin" to the list. The list is in 2 batches-ACC/B12/Big East. then Pac-12/SEC/Big Ten.

 

[DefenseBB]

 

[sharris25]

Thanks, visitingcock. I'm with you every step of the way. At season's start, I believed the POY would be either Aliyah or Caitlin. That Aliyah has slipped statistically certainly should count for something, whether it's by her own actions or inactions, so to speak.

I just have the feeling, reflected by many comments here on the Boneyard, that Caitlin is somehow diminished in many people's eyes because she scores so much, or is known for her 30-foot shots.

She also has led the country in assists the past two seasons and is well up there again this season, as well as being a 7+ rebounds per game player. Which other players are even close to that triplicate? And she's dramatically improved her defense.

Caitlin also had her biggest games last season against Iowa's toughest Big Ten rivals, in games to decide the conference and tournament titles. As for her 'like-ability,' I'd just suggest you watch (more) Iowa games. Caitlin is as fierce as they come yet respectful and clearly enjoys being around rival players and coaches when the game is over, and her teammates love her. Plus, anyone who doesn't watch her play are depriving themselves.

For those who pay attention to such things, it's ironic that just a few years ago Iowa's Megan Gustafson was the NPOY... she was hardly the player that Caitlin Clark is.

The Hawkeyes are a flawed team, for sure, and I will be surprised if they make it past the Sweet Sixteen again, maybe to the Elite Eight. Measuring Caitlin based on how Iowa does against the Stanfords, UConns and South Carolinas of the WCBB world is unfair. What people should consider is just how great she is that she even has her significantly lesser team in the mix!


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Aliyah Boston should win it. No one has stopped her individually or her team thus far in the season. She has been every bit as dominant as she was last year and has shown big in every Marquee matchup despite playing less minutes. Secondly, she bring more defensively than any other player competing with her for the award. If you are still the presumptive defensive player of the year in college and still a force on offense and the reigning player of the year, all the narratives about Caitlyn Clark or whomever is not going to match up. You may not like it but it is how it is. Sorry

 

[Bigboote]

I think Mackenzie Holmes should get more attention. Indiana has done better than expected despite not having Grace Berger for a month, and Holmes is first or second in field-goal pct, top-ten in scoring and an excellent defender.

 

[jdote33]

Aliyah Boston should win it. No one has stopped her individually or her team thus far in the season. She has been every bit as dominant as she was last year and has shown big in every Marquee matchup despite playing less minutes. Secondly, she bring more defensively than any other player competing with her for the award. If you are still the presumptive defensive player of the year in college and still a force on offense and the reigning player of the year, all the narratives about Caitlyn Clark or whomever is not going to match up. You may not like it but it is how it is. Sorry

I do think the LSU matchup(s) are important. If LSU is able to win the SEC outright, or even they are tied with South Carolina, I do think Reese deserves the nod. I know the OOC schedule is week but she's got a double double every game, averaging 23 and 16 is insane.

 

[bballnut90]

Aliyah Boston should win it. No one has stopped her individually or her team thus far in the season. She has been every bit as dominant as she was last year and has shown big in every Marquee matchup despite playing less minutes. Secondly, she bring more defensively than any other player competing with her for the award. If you are still the presumptive defensive player of the year in college and still a force on offense and the reigning player of the year, all the narratives about Caitlyn Clark or whomever is not going to match up. You may not like it but it is how it is. Sorry

You're entitled to your opinion, but I think majority of WCBB fans feel differently. POY is mostly an offensive award. Players like Ionescu, Gustafson and Plum were never great defenders but were still obvious picks for POY in their respective seasons. Clark fits the bill here too and has numbers that match or surpass each of the above players.


Boston is great but I think it's Clark's to lose this year. Stats, eye test, and showing up in big games all favor her right now. Boston wins the team success card, but Clark's team has played very well and has an unheralded Iowa team #5 in the country at the moment. Aliyah could win if she continues to raise her numbers and shows up big against LSU this weekend and in the SEC tournament.

 

[Big12wbbFan]

I do think the LSU matchup(s) are important. If LSU is able to win the SEC outright, or even they are tied with South Carolina, I do think Reese deserves the nod. I know the OOC schedule is week but she's got a double double every game, averaging 23 and 16 is insane.

LSU has played 1 ranked team. I think Arkansas was # 24 when they first played them. As you mentioned, their OOC was awful. I am anxious to see how Reese does against South Carolina and if she can perform against quality teams.

 

[GCKSFN4L]

If LSU beats SC convincingly with a big performance by Reese, she will be the favorite for POY imo. That seems very unlikely so the favorite currently is Clark. If Indiana beats Iowa twice, I definitely think Holmes has a shot but I don't think she's getting her proper due from the media to garner enough support for the award.

I like Boston and believe she's personally the best overall player in WBB but I don't see her repeating as POY. Her numbers are down, she plays less minutes, she's smothered practically all the time and her teammates are benefitting and taking better advantage of the attention she brings. She played her best ball in the big games, but the SOS is not as nearly as strong as last year.

So my favorites are
1. Clark
2a. Reese- with an SC upset
2b. Holmes - with an Iowa Sweep
3. Edwards is my longshot pick

If somehow those 4 teams implode
4. Boston
5. Siegrest

 

[sharris25]

If LSU beats SC convincingly with a big performance by Reese, she will be the favorite for POY imo. That seems very unlikely so the favorite currently is Clark. If Indiana beats Iowa twice, I definitely think Holmes has a shot but I don't think she's getting her proper due from the media to garner enough support for the award.

I like Boston and believe she's personally the best overall player in WBB but I don't see her repeating as POY. Her numbers are down, she plays less minutes, she's smothered practically all the time and her teammates are benefitting and taking better advantage of the attention she brings. She played her best ball in the big games, but the SOS is not as nearly as strong as last year.

So my favorites are
1. Clark
2a. Reese- with an SC upset
2b. Holmes - with an Iowa Sweep
3. Edwards is my longshot pick

If somehow those 4 teams implode
4. Boston
5. Siegrest

Frankly, I still thing Iowa has had some inexplicable losses that all the points in the world would not cover up. They are doing well now, but I can name other players who are scoring more that you could give the award to if it was all about offense. What gave Ionescu such a boost was the record triple doubles and the fact that here team was successful that last year. I see fans getting excited about Clark, but as I have watch many of these halftimes of games with actual voters who participate in this process, they all refuse to disc,ount Boston winning it again and they all take into account that she is playing less minutes, yet she is still racking up double/doubles while sometimes literally being quadruple teamed. I will come back to this post once th award is given but imo it will be hard to unseat Boston. Especially coming off the highly televised 26 point performance against Uconn on Sunday. She seems to be getting cranked up for the stretch run.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

You're entitled to your opinion, but I think majority of WCBB fans feel differently. POY is mostly an offensive award. Players like Ionescu, Gustafson and Plum were never great defenders but were still obvious picks for POY in their respective seasons. Clark fits the bill here too and has numbers that match or surpass each of the above players.


Boston is great but I think it's Clark's to lose this year. Stats, eye test, and showing up in big games all favor her right now. Boston wins the team success card, but Clark's team has played very well and has an unheralded Iowa team #5 in the country at the moment. Aliyah could win if she continues to raise her numbers and shows up big against LSU this weekend and in the SEC tournament.

Iowa is doing pretty much what they were expected to do. They were pretty heralded.

I've never been a big Clark believer but sure why not?

Sometimes Russell Westbrook wins the MVP because the obvious candidates are boring and there is a big stat to gawk at. It's just how it works sometimes.

We'll have to see how the LSU game goes , but I'll buy that Boston's diminished minutes and number decline might take her out of running.

 

[bballnut90]

Iowa is doing pretty much what they were expected to do. They were pretty heralded.

I've never been a big Clark believer but sure why not?

Sometimes Russell Westbrook wins the MVP because the obvious candidates are boring and there is a big stat to gawk at. It's just how it works sometimes.

We'll have to see how the LSU game goes , but I'll buy that Boston's diminished minutes and number decline might take her out of running.

I suggest watching more Clark if you're reducing her as a 'big stat line to gawk at.' Or perhaps make an argument for Boston rather than belittle Clark.

 

[bballnut90]

Frankly, I still thing Iowa has had some inexplicable losses that all the points in the world would not cover up. They are doing well now, but I can name other players who are scoring more that you could give the award to if it was all about offense. What gave Ionescu such a boost was the record triple doubles and the fact that here team was successful that last year. I see fans getting excited about Clark, but as I have watch many of these halftimes of games with actual voters who participate in this process, they all refuse to disc,ount Boston winning it again and they all take into account that she is playing less minutes, yet she is still racking up double/doubles while sometimes literally being quadruple teamed. I will come back to this post once th award is given but imo it will be hard to unseat Boston. Especially coming off the highly televised 26 point performance against Uconn on Sunday. She seems to be getting cranked up for the stretch run.

Breaking this down:
1. Iowa's losing a couple of games to unranked teams doesn't take her out of the running. Many POY winners have lost games to unranked teams, including Sabrina Ionescu (2020), Megan Gustafson (2019), A'ja Wilson (2018) and Kelsey Plum (2017).

2. Clark is 2nd in the country in scoring, trailing #1 by half a point. She is also 2nd in the country in assists by half an assist per game. No one comes close to matching the productivity that Clark does offensively. And she's managing this load while leading the #5 ranked team in the country.

3. You mention Sabrina won in part due to triple doubles. Clark leads the nation in triple doubles and is second in career triple doubles to Ionescu, and she's only midway through her junior season. She has 3 on the year and could easily rack up 5 or 6 by the end of the season. Ionescu had 8 in the season you referenced. In regards to team success, yes the 2020 Oregon squad was better than Clark's Iowa team, but Caitlin still has Iowa ranked top 5 and in position for a top 2 seed. Based on historical precedent, that's more than enough team success to justify winning the award. For reference, A'ja Wilson swept POY awards as a senior but her team was a borderline 2/3 seed, and nabbed the lowest 2 seed in the tournament.

4. I don't think anyone should refuse Boston as a candidate or is saying she isn't in the running. She is, and her play has improved as she's gotten into the thick of SEC play. If she keeps up this level of play, she absolutely should be in the conversation. I just think she has a decent amount of catching up to do to surpass Clark (who is playing an incredible stretch of basketball right now).

 

[DefenseBB]

Maybe neither. I’d rather see her win an unprecedented Third scholar player in. A row. ( while winning another NC).

Reese and Brinks are looking very good for two programs winning a lot of games.

in reviewing all the conference POY stats, there are 6 players who have an Efficiency score above 25. While not perfect, this rating does show all the positives a player does on the court for her team. The 6 players are
35.7 Reese
31.9 Clark
30.2 Siegrist
27.7 Holmes
26.1 Morrow
25.9 Kitley

Miles-22.8; Brink-23.5, Boston-23.0 all are significantly behind their conference leader.

I find the comment that Stephanie Soares as potential NPOY candidate misguide at best and absurd in most narratives. While a probable 1st All Big 12 Conference Player, her stats just didn’t measure up on a per game basis and she was #2 on her team. Her 13 game Efficiency score was 12.5 which frankly is the 4th lowest of the 39 players I did stats on. Efficiency is not a counting stat but a “game” stat so 13 games is not limiting her except in the sense she didn’t play many conference games against better competition.

 

[Bjbod]

Lots of good points in this thread; the crowd that The Boneyard attracts is refreshing...educated posts without hostility. We are all limited by our own opinions based on our own exposure to the teams and players involved, so it's helpful to be educated on points we aren't aware of.

I wonder if there are any actual listed criteria for POY candidates, or if it's simply up to the voters to create their own? Enjoyed watching UConn-S Carolina this past weekend to actually witness what the Gamecocks have and to get another look at the depleted Huskies. Boston is such a force inside; Aaliyah Edwards showed she's a darkhorse candidate with her performance against a tall and talented team.

Since I live in the Des Moines area, I've had the chance to observe Caitlin Clark since she was a 9th-grader. I've watched over 90% of her games since she enrolled at Iowa and can say her game is still evolving. What's really interesting is hearing the commentary from all the various broadcast teams that do the games.

Based on those comments and just simply watching, I think she is clearly the most entertaining player in college basketball. Attendence jumps when she plays on the road; little girls from opposing fan bases line up to get her autograph, and she does her best to satisfy those requests. Her passing is just as entertaining as her scoring.

One thing I'd like to put out there to hear others' takes on: how do you incorporate the POY's surrounding cast in the evaluation? Since I've seen so many of Clark's games I only feel qualified to speak on her. What I would point out is that while the players around her are good, it's not the same as being a star on a team like UConn, Stanford, or South Carolina where you're surrounded almost entirely by Top 50 recruits. When Iowa plays a team like that most of her teammates can't get a shot on their own because they're 4 inches shorter and less athletic than the player guarding them. This is why Caitlin's shot volume goes up in those games: she's the only one who can score on many possessions. Contrast that to Boston's opportunity to play with other talented women who are 6'4"-6'7" and extremely quick guards. Isn't that going to make it easier for you to stand out? She would clearly dominate were she on any other team in the country, but would it be the same when her opponents could afford to double-team her regularly?

Looking forward to hearing all of your opinions.

 

[jpp13]

Lots of good points in this thread; the crowd that The Boneyard attracts is refreshing...educated posts without hostility. We are all limited by our own opinions based on our own exposure to the teams and players involved, so it's helpful to be educated on points we aren't aware of.

I wonder if there are any actual listed criteria for POY candidates, or if it's simply up to the voters to create their own? Enjoyed watching UConn-S Carolina this past weekend to actually witness what the Gamecocks have and to get another look at the depleted Huskies. Boston is such a force inside; Aaliyah Edwards showed she's a darkhorse candidate with her performance against a tall and talented team.

Since I live in the Des Moines area, I've had the chance to observe Caitlin Clark since she was a 9th-grader. I've watched over 90% of her games since she enrolled at Iowa and can say her game is still evolving. What's really interesting is hearing the commentary from all the various broadcast teams that do the games.

Based on those comments and just simply watching, I think she is clearly the most entertaining player in college basketball. Attendence jumps when she plays on the road; little girls from opposing fan bases line up to get her autograph, and she does her best to satisfy those requests. Her passing is just as entertaining as her scoring.

One thing I'd like to put out there to hear others' takes on: how do you incorporate the POY's surrounding cast in the evaluation? Since I've seen so many of Clark's games I only feel qualified to speak on her. What I would point out is that while the players around her are good, it's not the same as being a star on a team like UConn, Stanford, or South Carolina where you're surrounded almost entirely by Top 50 recruits. When Iowa plays a team like that most of her teammates can't get a shot on their own because they're 4 inches shorter and less athletic than the player guarding them. This is why Caitlin's shot volume goes up in those games: she's the only one who can score on many possessions. Contrast that to Boston's opportunity to play with other talented women who are 6'4"-6'7" and extremely quick guards. Isn't that going to make it easier for you to stand out? She would clearly dominate were she on any other team in the country, but would it be the same when her opponents could afford to double-team her regularly?

Looking forward to hearing all of your opinions.

I think the supporting cast argument tends to fall half empty/ half full. If Paige or Aliyah got had many shots or handled the ball as much as Clark they likely would be putting up similar stats. I also agree she deserves credit for making a less notable cast a top 5 team. The argument was used in caitlin’s favor against Paige but was dismissed against Aaliyah ( by a certain fa base for obvious reasons). I think her candidacy depends upon Iowa’s finish. Still 2 games against Indiana an away game against Maryland. Personally if they win the big 10 I think she should get it however if they were to lose 2 or worse case all 3 that would give Iowa 7 losses then it becomes a little harder to justify. I also think the blowout in the sweet 16 and last years second round upset kind of raises the doubt of how far she can take them.

 

[visitingcock]

I think the supporting cast argument tends to fall half empty/ half full. If Paige or Aliyah got had many shots or handled the ball as much as Clark they likely would be putting up similar stats. I also agree she deserves credit for making a less notable cast a top 5 team. The argument was used in caitlin’s favor against Paige but was dismissed against Aaliyah ( by a certain fa base for obvious reasons). I think her candidacy depends upon Iowa’s finish. Still 2 games against Indiana an away game against Maryland. Personally if they win the big 10 I think she should get it however if they were to lose 2 or worse case all 3 that would give Iowa 7 losses then it becomes a little harder to justify. I also think the blowout in the sweet 16 and last years second round upset kind of raises the doubt of how far she can take them.

Indiana could throw some salt on her tail. Maryland’s defense is pretty pitiful and I don’t see them having a chance of slowing her down.

BTW, Iowa’s tv ratings are fabulous for a Big10 team. It’s gotta be giving a boost to her NPOY chances

 

[TC22]

I love Caitlin's game and would not be disappointed if she won it. I do think Aliyah is still very much in it regardless of her numbers. Anybody that watched the UConn game saw that she is still the dominant force on both ends.

Reese is an interesting one. Because of the abysmal schedule her team has played and because Mulkey has let her play an average of 32 mins. it's hard for me to say she deserves it over Clark or Boston, even though she is a talent.

 

[bballnut90]

Indiana could throw some salt on her tail. Maryland’s defense is pretty pitiful and I don’t see them having a chance of slowing her down.

BTW, Iowa’s tv ratings are fabulous for a Big10 team. It’s gotta be giving a boost to her NPOY chances

TV ratings shouldn't be used to undermine Clark's case, or to provide justification for if she wins. Both Clark and Boston are on very visible teams that play many games on ESPN and have a ton of exposure and viewers.

 

[visitingcock]

TV ratings shouldn't be used to undermine Clark's case, or to provide justification for if she wins. Both Clark and Boston are on very visible teams that play many games on ESPN and have a ton of exposure and viewers.

Don't be defensive about it.

Not undermining Clark. I do think it is proof of her market value. As you pointed out, Boston is also visible, but that's as much Dawn and the number one team that generates those eyeballs. For Iowa, it's Clark.

And TV eyeballs, til now, undermine Reese's case.

 

[GCKSFN4L]

I think the supporting cast argument tends to fall half empty/ half full. If Paige or Aliyah got had many shots or handled the ball as much as Clark they likely would be putting up similar stats. I also agree she deserves credit for making a less notable cast a top 5 team. The argument was used in caitlin’s favor against Paige but was dismissed against Aaliyah ( by a certain fa base for obvious reasons). I think her candidacy depends upon Iowa’s finish. Still 2 games against Indiana an away game against Maryland. Personally if they win the big 10 I think she should get it however if they were to lose 2 or worse case all 3 that would give Iowa 7 losses then it becomes a little harder to justify. I also think the blowout in the sweet 16 and last years second round upset kind of raises the doubt of how far she can take them.

I definitely think the Clark vs Boston debate was more than just than the standout star on a talented team vs being the star that has to lift the team. Other factors such as SOS, marquee wins and styles of play (offensive juggernaut vs Two way Player) was what tilted the scales in Boston's favor.

I do wish they added the National Offensive Player of the Year. Clark could be a 3x champ if that existed.

 

[jdote33]

Lots of good points in this thread; the crowd that The Boneyard attracts is refreshing...educated posts without hostility. We are all limited by our own opinions based on our own exposure to the teams and players involved, so it's helpful to be educated on points we aren't aware of.

I wonder if there are any actual listed criteria for POY candidates, or if it's simply up to the voters to create their own? Enjoyed watching UConn-S Carolina this past weekend to actually witness what the Gamecocks have and to get another look at the depleted Huskies. Boston is such a force inside; Aaliyah Edwards showed she's a darkhorse candidate with her performance against a tall and talented team.

Since I live in the Des Moines area, I've had the chance to observe Caitlin Clark since she was a 9th-grader. I've watched over 90% of her games since she enrolled at Iowa and can say her game is still evolving. What's really interesting is hearing the commentary from all the various broadcast teams that do the games.

Based on those comments and just simply watching, I think she is clearly the most entertaining player in college basketball. Attendence jumps when she plays on the road; little girls from opposing fan bases line up to get her autograph, and she does her best to satisfy those requests. Her passing is just as entertaining as her scoring.

One thing I'd like to put out there to hear others' takes on: how do you incorporate the POY's surrounding cast in the evaluation? Since I've seen so many of Clark's games I only feel qualified to speak on her. What I would point out is that while the players around her are good, it's not the same as being a star on a team like UConn, Stanford, or South Carolina where you're surrounded almost entirely by Top 50 recruits. When Iowa plays a team like that most of her teammates can't get a shot on their own because they're 4 inches shorter and less athletic than the player guarding them. This is why Caitlin's shot volume goes up in those games: she's the only one who can score on many possessions. Contrast that to Boston's opportunity to play with other talented women who are 6'4"-6'7" and extremely quick guards. Isn't that going to make it easier for you to stand out? She would clearly dominate were she on any other team in the country, but would it be the same when her opponents could afford to double-team her regularly?

Looking forward to hearing all of your opinions.

Thank u for this insight. The interesting thing about Clark is that her numbers really haven't changed all 3 years but I agree she's a better player.
I really like the team around her. Warnock is so solid and I feel like she could average 15 if she was more aggressive. Czinano is Czinano. And then Marshall is a good shooter as well. It's kinda the age old question when you have a dominant guard, do you want another point guard to take the ball out of her hands. Marshall really allows Caitlin to dominate the ball which I think is not a bad thing.
I would have no problem with her winning the award, but I do think they have to continue winning. Like if they end up with 7 losses and Reese ends up with 1...idk.
I also wanted to bring up Alissa Pili. She's 20 pts 6 rebounds on 60 40 78 shooting. It's not just the numbers too. She's like a true go-to player and stabilizing force for them. In crunch time and just throughout the game, she's like a safety valve. If they win the PAC 12, and end up with only 3 losses, I think she has to be seriously considered.

 

[GCKSFN4L]

Considering that the NPOY is almost always from a player on a top team, I would say that the voters often lean towards the player that stands out on a talented team more so then the star player on an otherwise average team. But taking a team to the top 5 and potentially 1 seed with lesser talent and difficult schedule seems like POY material to me.