POY Candidates?

[DefenseBB]

Maybe neither. I’d rather see her win an unprecedented Third scholar player in. A row. ( while winning another NC).

Reese and Brinks are looking very good for two programs winning a lot of games.

in reviewing all the conference POY stats, there are 6 players who have an Efficiency score above 25. While not perfect, this rating does show all the positives a player does on the court for her team. The 6 players are
35.7 Reese
31.9 Clark
30.2 Siegrist
27.7 Holmes
26.1 Morrow
25.9 Kitley

Miles-22.8; Brink-23.5, Boston-23.0 all are significantly behind their conference leader.

I find the comment that Stephanie Soares as potential NPOY candidate misguide at best and absurd in most narratives. While a probable 1st All Big 12 Conference Player, her stats just didn’t measure up on a per game basis and she was #2 on her team. Her 13 game Efficiency score was 12.5 which frankly is the 4th lowest of the 39 players I did stats on. Efficiency is not a counting stat but a “game” stat so 13 games is not limiting her except in the sense she didn’t play many conference games against better competition.

 

[Bjbod]

Lots of good points in this thread; the crowd that The Boneyard attracts is refreshing...educated posts without hostility. We are all limited by our own opinions based on our own exposure to the teams and players involved, so it's helpful to be educated on points we aren't aware of.

I wonder if there are any actual listed criteria for POY candidates, or if it's simply up to the voters to create their own? Enjoyed watching UConn-S Carolina this past weekend to actually witness what the Gamecocks have and to get another look at the depleted Huskies. Boston is such a force inside; Aaliyah Edwards showed she's a darkhorse candidate with her performance against a tall and talented team.

Since I live in the Des Moines area, I've had the chance to observe Caitlin Clark since she was a 9th-grader. I've watched over 90% of her games since she enrolled at Iowa and can say her game is still evolving. What's really interesting is hearing the commentary from all the various broadcast teams that do the games.

Based on those comments and just simply watching, I think she is clearly the most entertaining player in college basketball. Attendence jumps when she plays on the road; little girls from opposing fan bases line up to get her autograph, and she does her best to satisfy those requests. Her passing is just as entertaining as her scoring.

One thing I'd like to put out there to hear others' takes on: how do you incorporate the POY's surrounding cast in the evaluation? Since I've seen so many of Clark's games I only feel qualified to speak on her. What I would point out is that while the players around her are good, it's not the same as being a star on a team like UConn, Stanford, or South Carolina where you're surrounded almost entirely by Top 50 recruits. When Iowa plays a team like that most of her teammates can't get a shot on their own because they're 4 inches shorter and less athletic than the player guarding them. This is why Caitlin's shot volume goes up in those games: she's the only one who can score on many possessions. Contrast that to Boston's opportunity to play with other talented women who are 6'4"-6'7" and extremely quick guards. Isn't that going to make it easier for you to stand out? She would clearly dominate were she on any other team in the country, but would it be the same when her opponents could afford to double-team her regularly?

Looking forward to hearing all of your opinions.

 

[visitingcock]

Indiana could throw some salt on her tail. Maryland’s defense is pretty pitiful and I don’t see them having a chance of slowing her down.

BTW, Iowa’s tv ratings are fabulous for a Big10 team. It’s gotta be giving a boost to her NPOY chances

 

[TC22]

I love Caitlin's game and would not be disappointed if she won it. I do think Aliyah is still very much in it regardless of her numbers. Anybody that watched the UConn game saw that she is still the dominant force on both ends.

Reese is an interesting one. Because of the abysmal schedule her team has played and because Mulkey has let her play an average of 32 mins. it's hard for me to say she deserves it over Clark or Boston, even though she is a talent.

 

[bballnut90]

Indiana could throw some salt on her tail. Maryland’s defense is pretty pitiful and I don’t see them having a chance of slowing her down.

BTW, Iowa’s tv ratings are fabulous for a Big10 team. It’s gotta be giving a boost to her NPOY chances

TV ratings shouldn't be used to undermine Clark's case, or to provide justification for if she wins. Both Clark and Boston are on very visible teams that play many games on ESPN and have a ton of exposure and viewers.

 

[visitingcock]

TV ratings shouldn't be used to undermine Clark's case, or to provide justification for if she wins. Both Clark and Boston are on very visible teams that play many games on ESPN and have a ton of exposure and viewers.

Don't be defensive about it.

Not undermining Clark. I do think it is proof of her market value. As you pointed out, Boston is also visible, but that's as much Dawn and the number one team that generates those eyeballs. For Iowa, it's Clark.

And TV eyeballs, til now, undermine Reese's case.

 

[GCKSFN4L]

I definitely think the Clark vs Boston debate was more than just than the standout star on a talented team vs being the star that has to lift the team. Other factors such as SOS, marquee wins and styles of play (offensive juggernaut vs Two way Player) was what tilted the scales in Boston's favor.

I do wish they added the National Offensive Player of the Year. Clark could be a 3x champ if that existed.

 

[jdote33]

Lots of good points in this thread; the crowd that The Boneyard attracts is refreshing...educated posts without hostility. We are all limited by our own opinions based on our own exposure to the teams and players involved, so it's helpful to be educated on points we aren't aware of.

I wonder if there are any actual listed criteria for POY candidates, or if it's simply up to the voters to create their own? Enjoyed watching UConn-S Carolina this past weekend to actually witness what the Gamecocks have and to get another look at the depleted Huskies. Boston is such a force inside; Aaliyah Edwards showed she's a darkhorse candidate with her performance against a tall and talented team.

Since I live in the Des Moines area, I've had the chance to observe Caitlin Clark since she was a 9th-grader. I've watched over 90% of her games since she enrolled at Iowa and can say her game is still evolving. What's really interesting is hearing the commentary from all the various broadcast teams that do the games.

Based on those comments and just simply watching, I think she is clearly the most entertaining player in college basketball. Attendence jumps when she plays on the road; little girls from opposing fan bases line up to get her autograph, and she does her best to satisfy those requests. Her passing is just as entertaining as her scoring.

One thing I'd like to put out there to hear others' takes on: how do you incorporate the POY's surrounding cast in the evaluation? Since I've seen so many of Clark's games I only feel qualified to speak on her. What I would point out is that while the players around her are good, it's not the same as being a star on a team like UConn, Stanford, or South Carolina where you're surrounded almost entirely by Top 50 recruits. When Iowa plays a team like that most of her teammates can't get a shot on their own because they're 4 inches shorter and less athletic than the player guarding them. This is why Caitlin's shot volume goes up in those games: she's the only one who can score on many possessions. Contrast that to Boston's opportunity to play with other talented women who are 6'4"-6'7" and extremely quick guards. Isn't that going to make it easier for you to stand out? She would clearly dominate were she on any other team in the country, but would it be the same when her opponents could afford to double-team her regularly?

Looking forward to hearing all of your opinions.

Thank u for this insight. The interesting thing about Clark is that her numbers really haven't changed all 3 years but I agree she's a better player.
I really like the team around her. Warnock is so solid and I feel like she could average 15 if she was more aggressive. Czinano is Czinano. And then Marshall is a good shooter as well. It's kinda the age old question when you have a dominant guard, do you want another point guard to take the ball out of her hands. Marshall really allows Caitlin to dominate the ball which I think is not a bad thing.
I would have no problem with her winning the award, but I do think they have to continue winning. Like if they end up with 7 losses and Reese ends up with 1...idk.
I also wanted to bring up Alissa Pili. She's 20 pts 6 rebounds on 60 40 78 shooting. It's not just the numbers too. She's like a true go-to player and stabilizing force for them. In crunch time and just throughout the game, she's like a safety valve. If they win the PAC 12, and end up with only 3 losses, I think she has to be seriously considered.

 

[GCKSFN4L]

Considering that the NPOY is almost always from a player on a top team, I would say that the voters often lean towards the player that stands out on a talented team more so then the star player on an otherwise average team. But taking a team to the top 5 and potentially 1 seed with lesser talent and difficult schedule seems like POY material to me.

 

[bballnut90]

Don't be defensive about it.

Not undermining Clark. I do think it is proof of her market value. As you pointed out, Boston is also visible, but that's as much Dawn and the number one team that generates those eyeballs. For Iowa, it's Clark.

And TV eyeballs, til now, undermine Reese's case.

I don't think it has much relevance or holds credibility. The post comes off as an SC fan already creating a non-basketball narrative for why Clark will win it rather than just giving her due credit if she is does get the hardware. It's similar to arguments I've seen UCONN fans make about how Boston is the pre-anointed POY and shouldn't even be in consideration.

 

[bballnut90]

Considering that the NPOY is almost always from a player on a top team, I would say that the voters often lean towards the player that stands out on a talented team more so then the star player on an otherwise average team. But taking a team to the top 5 and potentially 1 seed with lesser talent and difficult schedule seems like POY material to me.

For a long time the POY was almost always from a top 5 program, but that hasn't been the case as much as of late. A'ja Wilson was POY without having South Carolina as a top team, Kelsey Plum too in 2017 didn't elevate Washington to being a top team, and as recent as 2019 you had Iowa's Gustafson win most of the POY awards without Iowa being a top squad.

 

[visitingcock]

Considering that the NPOY is almost always from a player on a top team, I would say that the voters often lean towards the player that stands out on a talented team more so then the star player on an otherwise average team. But taking a team to the top 5 and potentially 1 seed with lesser talent and difficult schedule seems like POY material to me.

They are not top five. They are 8th.

If she can keep them at 8 by actually making the elite 8, I believe Caitlin will win. Doesn't have to win at that level, but needs to carry her team to that level.

 

[visitingcock]

I don't think it has much relevance or holds credibility. The post comes off as an SC fan already creating a non-basketball narrative for why Clark will win it rather than just giving her due credit if she is does get the hardware. It's similar to arguments I've seen UCONN fans make about how Boston is the pre-anointed POY and shouldn't even be in consideration.

Take it as "coming off" as you will. I will give her credit if she wins it. I already give her credit for carrying her team. I admire her scoring ability and particularly her asset numbers greatly. If she wins it down this final stretch, I will salute her. But, she has to win it. She doesn't get a trophy at 2/3rd of a season.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

None of you have a clue! Let me pick.

 

[azfan]

Boston and Clark 1 and 2

 

[The deacon]

They are not top five. They are 8th.

If she can keep them at 8 by actually making the elite 8, I believe Caitlin will win. Doesn't have to win at that level, but needs to carry her team to that level.

I love it, as written by visitingcock, the rule has now been established: A player has to play in the Elite Eight to be eligible for the NPOY award.

I hope at least some of you agree with me that's arbitrary to the nth degree. Come on, visitingcock. Would you feel that way if the Gamecocks were upset in the Sweet Sixteen?

I'll just add a couple of points I've made on other threads. Caitlin Clark is not a one-way player. Caitlin Clark is not all about offense. She plays good defense and she pulls down 8 rebounds a game, just two less per game than Aliyah Boston (granted, playing more minutes).

Clark doesn't just fire up 35-foot shots. She plays end to end, hustling throughout, and every game, even the ones Iowa loses, I believe she plays at a skill level higher than anyone else in the WCBB right now. That she happens to be exciting as heck to watch is a bonus, but is not the crux of her versatile, superb game.

 

[visitingcock]

I love it, as written by visitingcock, the rule has now been established: A player has to play in the Elite Eight to be eligible for the NPOY award.

I hope at least some of you agree with me that's arbitrary to the nth degree. Come on, visitingcock. Would you feel that way if the Gamecocks were upset in the Sweet Sixteen?

I'll just add a couple of points I've made on other threads. Caitlin Clark is not a one-way player. Caitlin Clark is not all about offense. She plays good defense and she pulls down 8 rebounds a game, just two less per game than Aliyah Boston (granted, playing more minutes).

Clark doesn't just fire up 35-foot shots. She plays end to end, hustling throughout, and every game, even the ones Iowa loses, she plays at a skill level higher than anyone else in the WCBB right now. That she happens to be exciting as heck to watch is a bonus, but is not the crux of her versatile, superb game.

Rule? No.

Opinion? Yes. You have them . I have them.

And the final ballots are submitted after the Elite 8. Lose at 16 and you start to dim in memory. Would Boston drop out of Contention if we lose at 16? YES

 

[The deacon]

Rule? No.

Opinion? Yes. You have them . I have them.

And the final ballots are submitted after the Elite 8. Lose at 16 and you start to dim in memory. Would Boston drop out of Contention if we lose at 16? YES

I try to frame my opinions as such, and respect that you often do, too.

Aliyah played like an All-American vs. UConn, and like a strong NPOY candidate. If Caitlin/Iowa struggles down the stretch and if Aliyah were to play like she did Sunday through an upset loss in the Sweet Sixteen, I'd probably vote for her, even with that early Gamecocks exit (I know that's an extremely unlikely scenario).

But it's not enough for Clark and Iowa to lose a few to let Boston win it. Aliyah has to earn it, not rest on her laurels, even as I know some voters would be satisfied with that. There are other players who could deserve it, too.

 

[visitingcock]

I try to frame my opinions as such, and respect that you often do, too.

Aliyah played like an All-American vs. UConn, and like a strong NPOY candidate. If Caitlin/Iowa struggles down the stretch and if Aliyah were to play like she did Sunday through an upset loss in the Sweet Sixteen, I'd probably vote for her, even with that early Gamecocks exit (I know that's an extremely unlikely scenario).

But it's not enough for Clark and Iowa to lose a few to let Boston win it. Aliyah has to earn it, not rest on her laurels, even as I know some voters would be satisfied with that. There are other players who could deserve it, too.

Reese could take a big step up this Saturday. My questions on Clark are not totally based on loyalty to Boston. Indeed, they are more about anointing Clark at the 2/3 mark of the season. The coronation is at the final four. Let’s wait til ALL the facts are in.

 

[JstVisiting]

You're entitled to your opinion, but I think majority of WCBB fans feel differently. POY is mostly an offensive award. Players like Ionescu, Gustafson and Plum were never great defenders but were still obvious picks for POY in their respective seasons. Clark fits the bill here too and has numbers that match or surpass each of the above players.


Boston is great but I think it's Clark's to lose this year. Stats, eye test, and showing up in big games all favor her right now. Boston wins the team success card, but Clark's team has played very well and has an unheralded Iowa team #5 in the country at the moment. Aliyah could win if she continues to raise her numbers and shows up big against LSU this weekend and in the SEC tournament.

That “unheralded Iowa team” climbed all the way to #5 from a preseason ranking of 4.

And I think you’re focusing on the wrong shared attribute that garners the media love for the players you mention.

 

[bballnut90]

That “unheralded Iowa team” climbed all the way to #5 from a preseason ranking of 4.

And I think you’re focusing on the wrong shared attribute that garners the media love for the players you mention.

Unheralded was the wrong term. Iowa doesn't have the size/athleticism that most other teams in the top 10 do. If Clark isn't there they may not be a top 20 team.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

in reviewing all the conference POY stats, there are 6 players who have an Efficiency score above 25. While not perfect, this rating does show all the positives a player does on the court for her team. The 6 players are
35.7 Reese
31.9 Clark
30.2 Siegrist
27.7 Holmes
26.1 Morrow
25.9 Kitley

Miles-22.8; Brink-23.5, Boston-23.0 all are significantly behind their conference leader.

I find the comment that Stephanie Soares as potential NPOY candidate misguide at best and absurd in most narratives. While a probable 1st All Big 12 Conference Player, her stats just didn’t measure up on a per game basis and she was #2 on her team. Her 13 game Efficiency score was 12.5 which frankly is the 4th lowest of the 39 players I did stats on. Efficiency is not a counting stat but a “game” stat so 13 games is not limiting her except in the sense she didn’t play many conference games against better competition.

If that's the list of names it produces, maybe it's not the best stat.

I love it, as written by visitingcock, the rule has now been established: A player has to play in the Elite Eight to be eligible for the NPOY award.

I hope at least some of you agree with me that's arbitrary to the nth degree. Come on, visitingcock. Would you feel that way if the Gamecocks were upset in the Sweet Sixteen?

I'll just add a couple of points I've made on other threads. Caitlin Clark is not a one-way player. Caitlin Clark is not all about offense. She plays good defense and she pulls down 8 rebounds a game, just two less per game than Aliyah Boston (granted, playing more minutes).

Clark doesn't just fire up 35-foot shots. She plays end to end, hustling throughout, and every game, even the ones Iowa loses, I believe she plays at a skill level higher than anyone else in the WCBB right now. That she happens to be exciting as heck to watch is a bonus, but is not the crux of her versatile, superb game.

I think the "efficiency score" criteria is an interesting one while we're at it.

Definitely have to be #1 in your conference at "efficiency score."

 

[DefenseBB]

If that's the list of names it produces, maybe it's not the best stat.


I think the "efficiency score" criteria is an interesting one while we're at it.

Definitely have to be #1 in your conference at "efficiency score."

I don't want to be the "poster child" for promoting the "Efficiency Score" but it does have an understandable calculation component. I do think it has flaws like skewing towards front court players, who tend to have higher shooting proficiency, mildly captures defensive statistics and does not incorporate the opponents rating that these stats were accumulated against.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

Siegrist making a statement and puts up 50 and 10.