Potential Big Ten/Big East Basketball Challenge | Page 2 | The Boneyard

Potential Big Ten/Big East Basketball Challenge

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
Messages
405
Reaction Score
458
That's telling as to where the ACC has placed priorities. The B1G hasn't passed over UConn yet.

Frank, you are right that football has driven the recent past, but I think you're missing the evolution of realignment drivers. Football was crucial as the TV contracts were renegotiated and the playoff system designed. Now, with the rise of conference networks, inventory becomes important and basketball is an equal mover with football (1/3 the audience x 3 times the inventory with less TV competition due to games being spread over the week and over a longer season). Basketball could even be the major source of marginal revenue if the power conferences break away from the NCAA in basketball as they have in football; in which case it will become the primary driver of realignment. We know this is being discussed, Emmert has said so.

Yes, UConn can and should invest in football, at least in terms of building up its fan base. But there is only so much investment that can happen while the team is in the AAC earning $2 mn per year. Football performance is not going to be the make or break factor in where UConn ends up.

I've been at the forefront of arguing that basketball has been undervalued with the advent of conference networks. A good portion of the value of the Maryland expansion can be attributed that they're a good basketball draw in the DC market. I also was very clear in stating that the "new" Big East consisting of the Catholic 7 was going to get a much better TV contract just on basketball than a lot of football-focused commentators believed (including believing that they'd do better than the AAC on a per school basis without even offering football, which a lot of AAC fans thought I was nuts about and, in turn, called me a lot of bad names) because of the strength of their brand names and market footprint, and that turned out to be correct.

However, you have to understand the bar is getting MUCH higher for the Big Ten *specifically* now (as opposed to lower). I'm not questioning that basketball as a concept has value - I certainly do with respect to conference networks as they provide the daily content to get those channels through at least April with decent ratings. It's just that the only way that the Big Ten can justifiably go up to 16 at this point is to have (a) at least one other national football power join or (b) a UVA/UNC mix that would provide such stellar academics and markets with the bonus of a basketball blue blood that they can live without another football power. I completely understand trying to emphasize the importance of basketball from UConn's standpoint, but even if you did that, the Big Ten could turn around and state, "We'll just wait for Kansas - they're an AAU member with a broader national appeal." The last two schools added to the Big Ten (and I believe that in the event of expansion, 16 is truly the end game), it's effectively to turn the BTN into a national channel where (1) markets are essentially irrelevant and (2) the network would still bring in massive revenue even in an a la carte streaming world (as opposed to basic cable). The Big Ten *has* the market footprint - it's the potential of delivering national brands like OU and KU to such markets that would ultimately be more revenue accretive at this point (unless Texas somehow drops in their laps, which is obviously an entirely different calculation).
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
Messages
405
Reaction Score
458
B1G schools with huge student populations and locations that lack entertainment competition sell out basketball.
I'm shocked.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

Another unbelievably weak argument in conference realignment. Go to Madison. Go to Ann Arbor. Go to Columbus. Go to Bloomington. Go to Iowa City. Go to Minneapolis. Compare them to Storrs. If UConn wants to use what you just stated as an excuse, they will get laughed out of the room by the Big Ten powers that be (and frankly, insult the intelligence of the Big Ten presidents in the process).

The bottom line is that UConn's resume has to be PERFECT. Why is anyone expecting that the Big Ten is going to overlook UConn's AAU status? Why is anyone expecting that the Big Ten is going to overlook UConn's attendance for both football and basketball (the latter of which is supposed to be the school's strength)? Rutgers got lucky in literally being in the right place (a relatively short train ride from NYC) at the right time (Maryland wanted to bolt and the Big Ten needed another Eastern AAU member). It may not be fair, but that luck isn't going to apply to UConn here. There is no compelling financial reason for the Big Ten, ACC or Big 12 to proactively expand right now, so every single wart is going to be hyper-analyzed even more than the last 3 years. This isn't the time to make excuses - instead, it's the time to correct every single possible negative mark that can be used against you (or else you could be sitting here 5 years from now looking at Cincinnati and Tulane leaving the AAC instead of you - THAT's what should motivate UConn more than anything).
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
29,618
Reaction Score
47,825
Another unbelievably weak argument in conference realignment. Go to Madison. Go to Ann Arbor. Go to Columbus. Go to Bloomington. Go to Iowa City. Go to Minneapolis. Compare them to Storrs. If UConn wants to use what you just stated as an excuse, they will get laughed out of the room by the Big Ten powers that be (and frankly, insult the intelligence of the Big Ten presidents in the process).

The bottom line is that UConn's resume has to be PERFECT. Why is anyone expecting that the Big Ten is going to overlook UConn's AAU status? Why is anyone expecting that the Big Ten is going to overlook UConn's attendance for both football and basketball (the latter of which is supposed to be the school's strength)? Rutgers got lucky in literally being in the right place (a relatively short train ride from NYC) at the right time (Maryland wanted to bolt and the Big Ten needed another Eastern AAU member). It may not be fair, but that luck isn't going to apply to UConn here. There is no compelling financial reason for the Big Ten, ACC or Big 12 to proactively expand right now, so every single wart is going to be hyper-analyzed even more than the last 3 years. This isn't the time to make excuses - instead, it's the time to correct every single possible negative mark that can be used against you (or else you could be sitting here 5 years from now looking at Cincinnati and Tulane leaving the AAC instead of you - THAT's what should motivate UConn more than anything).

How many times are you going to knock UConn on this board, be countered with facts, then come back and repeat the same old stuff? Do you even realize what UConn averages for bball, and what it does for women's bball? Attendance is down since 2008, but 7 or 8 years ago UConn did 14k while the women were doing over 13.5k per game. No one in the country had the combined number of fans.

This is going on everywhere. http://online.wsj.com/article_email...AxMTAyMDEwNTExNDUyWj.html?mod=wsj_share_email

UConn men are 26th in the nation by the way, for 2012, ahead of schools you mentioned like Iowa, Minnesota, Michigan, other B1G schools, ahead of Texas and Florida too. And this is when attendance is way down from where it used to be. When I say way down, I mean from 14k to 12,600. That takes UConn from top 15 top about top 25.

In terms of UConn total attendance, it leaps up to #16, and when you back out home attendance, UConn hits #10 as a road draw, ahead of Illinois. And this was in a season in which UConn played 3 games in a high school gym in front of a handful of fans (Virgin Isles).

How much do you know about UConn? This was the most rabid fan base around for 20 years until the rough patch of APR and sanctions. The state newspapers and media had more than 15 UConn beat writers traveling for regular season games on road trips, a number that blew anything in the B1g completely out of the water. The state interest was sky-high. Tier 3 TV and licensing is $24.8m for 2011 (and when you back out $4m in TV revenues and compare it to backed out revs from other schools) it shows the level of interest in UConn is sky-high. Ratings for bball games on SNY in this market top all TV cable and network. You continually knock UConn ("which is supposed to be the school's strength).
 

pj

Joined
Mar 30, 2012
Messages
8,736
Reaction Score
25,812
I completely understand trying to emphasize the importance of basketball from UConn's standpoint, but even if you did that, the Big Ten could turn around and state, "We'll just wait for Kansas - they're an AAU member with a broader national appeal." The last two schools added to the Big Ten (and I believe that in the event of expansion, 16 is truly the end game), it's effectively to turn the BTN into a national channel where (1) markets are essentially irrelevant and (2) the network would still bring in massive revenue even in an a la carte streaming world (as opposed to basic cable). The Big Ten *has* the market footprint - it's the potential of delivering national brands like OU and KU to such markets that would ultimately be more revenue accretive at this point (unless Texas somehow drops in their laps, which is obviously an entirely different calculation).

Frank, as I noted here (http://the-boneyard.com/threads/hey-the-big-ten-network-tweeted-about-us.40216/page-2#post-621755), UConn and Kansas are identical on the AAU's research metrics. Kansas is an historical AAU member (1909) and maybe standards for entry are higher than standards for retention of status, but odds are UConn will be in the AAU soon; and apart from that credential, there is no reason to favor Kansas over UConn on academic or research grounds.UConn is far superior to Oklahoma on academic and research metrics.

UConn's national appeal is not far off from Kansas's, and UConn's local appeal covers the nation's largest markets -- a region of 35 million people.

I agree that Oklahoma and Kansas would be attractive adds to the B1G. What I don't get is why you persistently discount UConn's attractiveness. On most metrics except football, we are equal or superior to most of the candidates you promote; and even in football, we are growing and would probably be equivalent after ten years in the B1G.

The BTN is not going to be a national channel, in terms of its major revenue sources. Games of national significance will be picked up by Fox/etc and televised nationally; BTN will have the games of regional interest. If BTN is picked up nationally, it will be for minimal subscriber fees.
 

pj

Joined
Mar 30, 2012
Messages
8,736
Reaction Score
25,812
Also, let me add that the B1G is not getting Kansas and Oklahoma unless it is also getting Texas; in which case it will need a fourth. We'll be happy to be that fourth.
 
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
5,734
Reaction Score
14,089
To get the board back on topic:
This would be a disaster for the AAC basketball teams still in the Northeast.
If Connecticut is still on that conference it would make it even more difficult to recruit in our own territory.
We better hope that this never occurs.
From my reading of Aresco's objective he seems to be a football first type of guy. Although this may help our football program, I fear it will have severe long term consequences for basketball.


Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
Messages
405
Reaction Score
458
How many times are you going to knock UConn on this board, be countered with facts, then come back and repeat the same old stuff? Do you even realize what UConn averages for bball, and what it does \women's bball? How much do you know about UConn? This was the most rabid fan base around for 20 years until the rough patch of APR and sanctions. The state newspapers and media had more than 15 UConn beat writers traveling for regular season games on road trips, a number that blew anything in the B1g completely out of the water. The state interest was sky-high. Tier 3 TV and licensing is $24.8m (and when you back out $2m in TV revenues and compare it to backed out revs from other schools) it shows the level of interest in UConn is sky-high. Ratings for bball games on SNY in this market top all TV cable and network. You continually knock UConn ("which is supposed to be the school's strength).

I'm not trying to knock UConn - like I've said, in a vacuum, there are a lot of positive attributes. Once again, though, this isn't a vacuum. I think that there's a serious underestimation here of what a lot of other schools (Oklahoma, Kansas, UNC, etc.) are bringing to the table and they have multiple generations of historical fan bases to back it up. If you want to argue that your fan base is better than the Rutgers fan base, then I believe you. I'm not arguing that. I've said many times that school had a lotto ticket simply because of where it was located. However, I think in a comparison with Kansas, though, UConn would be behind them on the Big Ten pecking order. I believe that would be the same case with Oklahoma, too. Now, that doesn't mean that UConn isn't worth anything or doesn't bring value, but that's who I believe the competition would be if/when conference realignment gets started again, and that competition is waaaaaaay more formidable than what a lot of people are giving them credit for here. They draw national TV audiences, have complete control of their respective markets where college sports are as big or bigger than pro sports, and sell tickets whether they win or lose (not just the great times). Schools like OU and KU aren't just fan-based wishes of who they like to watch play - they would fill a lot of big-time financial metrics for the Big Ten (and still do so for the Big 12).

I emphasize the "underestimation" part because I was one of those people that thought UConn was a 100% lock for the ACC when Maryland defected. You guys were supposed to be next in line. While that vote wasn't completely in UConn's control, I absolutely believe that UConn's leadership underestimated both (a) the strength of Louisville's leadership and athletic department and (b) how critical the Florida State-types were in terms of wanting a perceived football choice. I made the case on my blog at the time that there hasn't been much difference between Louisville and UConn football over the past 6 or 7 years, yet the message that kept getting out was that Louisville was the "football choice". UConn overestimated the academics angle and underestimated the football angle for the ACC. Likewise, I think a lot of UConn fans here are overestimating the "East Coast" and basketball angles for the Big Ten and underestimating both the AAU and football angles. Anyone that argues, "It's so OBVIOUS how much we bring to the table" is inherently engaging in puffery. The only "obvious" choices in conference realignment are schools like Texas and Notre Dame. Believe me - it isn't obvious to the powers that be and there's a lot of formidable competition out there (both in terms of who the Big Ten would target from other power conferences and the Big 12 would look at from the Group of Five).
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
29,618
Reaction Score
47,825
I'm not trying to knock UConn - like I've said, in a vacuum, there are a lot of positive attributes. Once again, though, this isn't a vacuum. I think that there's a serious underestimation here of what a lot of other schools (Oklahoma, Kansas, UNC, etc.) are bringing to the table and they have multiple generations of historical fan bases to back it up. If you want to argue that your fan base is better than the Rutgers fan base, then I believe you. I'm not arguing that. I've said many times that school had a lotto ticket simply because of where it was located. However, I think in a comparison with Kansas, though, UConn would be behind them on the Big Ten pecking order. I believe that would be the same case with Oklahoma, too. Now, that doesn't mean that UConn isn't worth anything or doesn't bring value, but that's who I believe the competition would be if/when conference realignment gets started again, and that competition is waaaaaaay more formidable than what a lot of people are giving them credit for here. They draw national TV audiences, have complete control of their respective markets where college sports are as big or bigger than pro sports, and sell tickets whether they win or lose (not just the great times). Schools like OU and KU aren't just fan-based wishes of who they like to watch play - they would fill a lot of big-time financial metrics for the Big Ten (and still do so for the Big 12).

I emphasize the "underestimation" part because I was one of those people that thought UConn was a 100% lock for the ACC when Maryland defected. You guys were supposed to be next in line. While that vote wasn't completely in UConn's control, I absolutely believe that UConn's leadership underestimated both (a) the strength of Louisville's leadership and athletic department and (b) how critical the Florida State-types were in terms of wanting a perceived football choice. I made the case on my blog at the time that there hasn't been much difference between Louisville and UConn football over the past 6 or 7 years, yet the message that kept getting out was that Louisville was the "football choice". UConn overestimated the academics angle and underestimated the football angle for the ACC. Likewise, I think a lot of UConn fans here are overestimating the "East Coast" and basketball angles for the Big Ten and underestimating both the AAU and football angles. Anyone that argues, "It's so OBVIOUS how much we bring to the table" is inherently engaging in puffery. The only "obvious" choices in conference realignment are schools like Texas and Notre Dame. Believe me - it isn't obvious to the powers that be and there's a lot of formidable competition out there (both in terms of who the Big Ten would target from other power conferences and the Big 12 would look at from the Group of Five).

We went over this the other day. It's the same old stuff.

I provided links. You ignored them. It gets tiring. I'm not doing it again.
 
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
121
Reaction Score
152
NY/NJ? Maryland/DC?

Maryland is now LESS attractive to DC and Baltimore kids, not more. Georgetown is now less attractive too. I think MD is now on the outside while that talent will get funneled to the ACC. Actually, UConn and Syracuse have been very active in Maryland over the years, often snagging the best Maryland recruits like Carmelo, Rudy Gay, Josh Boone. NY/NJ? Based on Rutgers? Have you actually seen their bball?

Have you even looked at Maryland's recruiting since Gary Williams retired? Maryland, according to 247 Sports, currently has the #5 rated 2014 recruiting class in the country. So far, it's a two-man class comprised of two of the state's best players. Top Maryland kids are very much interested in going to Maryland. The Big Ten has not changed that. Gary Williams refused to do the AAU song and dance and didn't get top talent as a result. Turgeon plays that game very well and has significantly upgraded Maryland's talent. They'll be pretty good pretty soon.
 
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
Messages
5,782
Reaction Score
26,175
Also, let me add that the B1G is not getting Kansas and Oklahoma unless it is also getting Texas; in which case it will need a fourth. We'll be happy to be that fourth.




Texas will never join the Big 10 for the same reasons Notre Dame won't. Texas will never be willing to play second fiddle to anyone and the old boy's in the Big 10 are too stubborn to swallow their pride. The NYC market is still very much in play, which means UCONN is still very much in play.
 

pj

Joined
Mar 30, 2012
Messages
8,736
Reaction Score
25,812
Texas will never join the Big 10 for the same reasons Notre Dame won't. Texas will never be willing to play second fiddle to anyone and the old boy's in the Big 10 are too stubborn to swallow their pride. The NYC market is still very much in play, which means UCONN is still very much in play.

Texas needs a conference. If it can't keep Oklahoma and Kansas in the B12, then its choices are SEC, B1G or Pac. If I were president of Texas and had that choice, I'd go for B1G.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
29,618
Reaction Score
47,825
Have you even looked at Maryland's recruiting since Gary Williams retired? Maryland, according to 247 Sports, currently has the #5 rated 2014 recruiting class in the country. So far, it's a two-man class comprised of two of the state's best players. Top Maryland kids are very much interested in going to Maryland. The Big Ten has not changed that. Gary Williams refused to do the AAU song and dance and didn't get top talent as a result. Turgeon plays that game very well and has significantly upgraded Maryland's talent. They'll be pretty good pretty soon.

In case you didn't know it, this UConn site saw right through that BS that Gary Williams started with Calhoun. That whole thing muddied the waters of Calhoun's legacy. It was as bogus as can be. While Calhoun and UConn sent a $22k check to Baltimore Parks & Rec. (a youth center for inner-city kids) Williams was comping the Pump Brothers with yearly F4 tix worth 5 figures, which they were selling and pocketing. Rudy Gay was not the only AAU kid UConn and Maryland went head-to-head for. They also bashed over Nik Caner-Medley who was a New England kid from Maine. It came down to UConn and Maryland for him. He went to Maryland (and in the summers he played for the Pump Brothers outfit out of California). So I'm tired of that BS from Maryland. If anything, it's Calhoun who avoided the AAU circuit. Williams was just sick and tired of answering questions about why he only started recruiting Gay the summer before his senior year while Uconn was on him as a Soph., and why he didn't offer Josh Boone. Williams decided to hit back with whining and excuses. It was all BS.

Do I think Maryland bball will be hurt by leaving the ACC? Yes, no doubt.
 
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Messages
3,333
Reaction Score
5,054
I'm not trying to knock UConn - like I've said, in a vacuum, there are a lot of positive attributes. Once again, though, this isn't a vacuum. I think that there's a serious underestimation here of what a lot of other schools (Oklahoma, Kansas, UNC, etc.) are bringing to the table and they have multiple generations of historical fan bases to back it up. If you want to argue that your fan base is better than the Rutgers fan base, then I believe you. I'm not arguing that. I've said many times that school had a lotto ticket simply because of where it was located. However, I think in a comparison with Kansas, though, UConn would be behind them on the Big Ten pecking order. I believe that would be the same case with Oklahoma, too. Now, that doesn't mean that UConn isn't worth anything or doesn't bring value, but that's who I believe the competition would be if/when conference realignment gets started again, and that competition is waaaaaaay more formidable than what a lot of people are giving them credit for here. They draw national TV audiences, have complete control of their respective markets where college sports are as big or bigger than pro sports, and sell tickets whether they win or lose (not just the great times). Schools like OU and KU aren't just fan-based wishes of who they like to watch play - they would fill a lot of big-time financial metrics for the Big Ten (and still do so for the Big 12).

I emphasize the "underestimation" part because I was one of those people that thought UConn was a 100% lock for the ACC when Maryland defected. You guys were supposed to be next in line. While that vote wasn't completely in UConn's control, I absolutely believe that UConn's leadership underestimated both (a) the strength of Louisville's leadership and athletic department and (b) how critical the Florida State-types were in terms of wanting a perceived football choice. I made the case on my blog at the time that there hasn't been much difference between Louisville and UConn football over the past 6 or 7 years, yet the message that kept getting out was that Louisville was the "football choice". UConn overestimated the academics angle and underestimated the football angle for the ACC. Likewise, I think a lot of UConn fans here are overestimating the "East Coast" and basketball angles for the Big Ten and underestimating both the AAU and football angles. Anyone that argues, "It's so OBVIOUS how much we bring to the table" is inherently engaging in puffery. The only "obvious" choices in conference realignment are schools like Texas and Notre Dame. Believe me - it isn't obvious to the powers that be and there's a lot of formidable competition out there (both in terms of who the Big Ten would target from other power conferences and the Big 12 would look at from the Group of Five).
actually Frank, the only thing that is obvious in CR is what has already happened.
nobody has been ahead of the curve until it's basically public knowledge.

So while you can look at the fact that uconn is on the outside looking in, you can't definitively speak of the reasons. And you certainly haven't proven to be ahead of any other source regarding potential moves. Right after ND agreed to terms with the ACC, the so called experts all suggested realignment was done. Now you speak as though your facts are the gospel and uconn fans are engaging in 'puffery'?

I appreciate your facts, and welcome your input. However, when you come here, it would also be helpful that you understand this is in fact a uconn board, and that most people here are biased towards uconn while others are simply self-hating husky fans. the real puffery is your presentation of assumptions, opinions, and loosely based facts as expertise and an ability to determine what's going to happen next.
 
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
Messages
5,782
Reaction Score
26,175
Texas needs a conference. If it can't keep Oklahoma and Kansas in the B12, then its choices are SEC, B1G or Pac. If I were president of Texas and had that choice, I'd go for B1G.

and my guess is they go PAC-12, where there would be a million concessions made in order to assure they that they will remain top dog. my second guess would be that they go to some sort of merged ACC(get a sweetheart deal like nd) before ever choosing the Big 10. in many ways, the big 10, its commissioner, presidents, ad's, and even bloggers overstate their worth and its that closed minded thinking that will keep them focused more on the past than the future. the big 10s tradition will mean much less in this new paradigm.
 
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
1,776
Reaction Score
1,381
Why is it so difficult for some here to accept the fact that Frank is right on a lot of his points. We are not so obvious a choice as we would like to believe. I have said it many times in the past, the perception of UConn outside of CT is not overwhelming. If we were as strong as some think we would have been taken by either the B1G or ACC by now. If BC was able to stop us when it came down to us or Pitt it is because most ACC schools did not see much of a difference between us and Pitt. The fact that we see a vast difference does not matter. If the B1G took RU over us it is because the majority of schools there thought they were a better pick. No amount of complaining about the fact that "they don't bring the NYC market" matters. RU was considered a better choice by the B1G. This may bother a lot of us but, there it is. UConn needs to improve FB fast while maintaining MBB (WBB does not matter) and then hopefully the perception will change.
 
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
538
Reaction Score
182
and my guess is they go PAC-12, where there would be a million concessions made in order to assure they that they will remain top dog. my second guess would be that they go to some sort of merged ACC(get a sweetheart deal like nd) before ever choosing the Big 10. in many ways, the big 10, its commissioner, presidents, ad's, and even bloggers overstate their worth and its that closed minded thinking that will keep them focused more on the past than the future. the big 10s tradition will mean much less in this new paradigm.


If the Pac-12/ACC relent to letting Texas keep the LHN you're probably right - but that will probably sow resentment in their other member schools in the long term so I'm not sure how realistic that is.

All things being equal - if Texas can go alone, it'll probably be the Big Ten. If Texas needs to take its little brothers along for the ride, Pac-12 is probably more willing to absorb the additional mouths to feed than other conferences.
 

pj

Joined
Mar 30, 2012
Messages
8,736
Reaction Score
25,812
you certainly haven't proven to be ahead of any other source regarding potential moves. Right after ND agreed to terms with the ACC, the so called experts all suggested realignment was done. Now you speak as though your facts are the gospel and uconn fans are engaging in 'puffery'?

I appreciate your facts, and welcome your input. However, when you come here, it would also be helpful that you understand this is in fact a uconn board, and that most people here are biased towards uconn while others are simply self-hating husky fans. the real puffery is your presentation of assumptions, opinions, and loosely based facts as expertise and an ability to determine what's going to happen next.

Actually, Frank is convinced that most people here are biased toward UConn. What he has trouble accepting is that we actually have a grasp on objective facts.

Frank constantly shifts the metrics so that UConn always comes out on the short end of the stick in realignment attractiveness. Rutgers has no sports accomplishments and no national following, but it has a big market. OK, with Rutgers off the table UConn now has the biggest market -- but market no longer matters, now it's Kansas's academics and national brand. But UConn equals Kansas's national basketball brand and academics and research, and lies in a bigger market. Oh, but that doesn't matter -- what matters is that Kansas would bring with it football powerhouse Oklahoma. But Oklahoma is a Connecticut-sized market without NYC nearby, and is feeble in academics and research, which B1G Presidents have named as requirements. Oklahoma's football brand is balanced by UConn's basketball brand. Frank says the B1G values football brands, and valued Florida State far above UConn, even though FSU is inferior in academic and research terms to UConn, shares its state with 4 other major football schools plus three pro teams, and is not geographically contiguous to the B1G footprint. Why didn't the B1G want Florida State? Geographic contiguity is important to them ... which leads us back to UConn.

It's hard to avoid the perception that Frank is projecting his own preferences onto the B1G. In my view Delany is now thinking more like a television executive than a football fan -- because he now is, essentially, a television executive -- and therefore he clearly sees the value of UConn and further penetration of the northeast.

Of course UNC, UVa, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas are major prizes -- if they are available. But what has to happen to pry them free for the B1G? UConn is similarly attractive to Kansas and Oklahoma and readily available.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
29,618
Reaction Score
47,825
This is the kind of thing that gets repeated here about UConn's value and the fact that it has been left out:

SNY charges 2.5x in Ct. and the NYC market slice of what the BTN charges in Michigan. Why isn't BTN charging $2.5o per house in Michigan? Why isn't it as popular in Michigan as SNY is in CT and that slice of NYC? What was SNY worth in Conn. before it added UConn? That's the value right there, and it's easy to determine since UConn has been on for a short period. Not only that, but it's on basic now, and a lot of cable systems picked it up. This is why I question why people are neglecting what the BTN can do in the state of Conn., compared to say Kansas or anywhere else. Why emphasize that when BTN can't even do in Michigan what SNY is already doing in Connecticut?

This keeps popping up: UConn got passed over again and again. It's been answered here a thousand times. UConn doesn't even qualify for the B1G on academics alone, so no discussing that. As for the ACC, this article breaks it down a bit: http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basket...-blocking-uconns-path-to-acc?urn=ncaab,wp5260

Not to mention the fact that the ACC was looking to add UConn and ND in 2011 according to Insiders, but that was expertly squashed by the Flipper when he brought ESPN's nefarious intentions public.

In the past, it's been claimed that UConn fans overrate the idea that BC blocked UConn. But the factual trail on this is all over the map and in print. There is a UConn-BC story, and info about has come through insiders long before it ever hit the press.

As for UConn's national brand for bball, there seem to be great ratings, great interest. There are a ton of articles out there putting UConn among the top 6 bluebloods in both accomplishment and interest. UConn's tier 3/licensing take is $24.8 million a year (on the back of a contract with IMG for $8 million for licensing related to coaches shows and such on SNY). This is because of basketball mainly, and shows the power of the brand.

As for SNY and the Mets, look at the ratings. .04 to 8 for UConn games. Look at what SNY was charging when it ONLY showed the Mets. Look at how the price went skyrocketing when it picked up UConn. A world of difference. College bball in Conn., men's and women's, are the top rated shows not only on cable but on all network TV as well. UConn is the most popular thing going in the state of Connecticut. In fact, for SNY's entire market, including NY and NJ, a Conn. women's basketball game will knock all other head-to-head sports off the air, including Syracuse men's bball. In Syracuse's (albeit tiny) market!

This has been the crux of what I've written over the last week.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
29,618
Reaction Score
47,825
Why is it so difficult for some here to accept the fact that Frank is right on a lot of his points. We are not so obvious a choice as we would like to believe. I have said it many times in the past, the perception of UConn outside of CT is not overwhelming. If we were as strong as some think we would have been taken by either the B1G or ACC by now. If BC was able to stop us when it came down to us or Pitt it is because most ACC schools did not see much of a difference between us and Pitt. The fact that we see a vast difference does not matter. If the B1G took RU over us it is because the majority of schools there thought they were a better pick. No amount of complaining about the fact that "they don't bring the NYC market" matters. RU was considered a better choice by the B1G. This may bother a lot of us but, there it is. UConn needs to improve FB fast while maintaining MBB (WBB does not matter) and then hopefully the perception will change.

Care to be specific? What points?

It's worthless posting in general if we don't know what you agree with him on.

If you're talking about BC, have you even read the articles? Do you even know what was going on behind the scenes? This was a remarkably mucky thing. You're looking at BC, Pitt and Cuse as automatically being better than UConn BECAUSE it was passed over (and if that's your logic, what's the point of debating this?), but when you look at the metrics, the only conclusion you can draw is that the ACC made the wrong decisions again and again. Look at the TV, for instance. look at the accomplishment (you bring up football above, care to look at UConn's record v. Pitt and Cuse?).

I posted this before on a another thread, but the whole 2011 expansion had a lot of backroom dealing with ND and UConn close to joining. Insiders posted that here. Another posted that on the Rutgers board (he was a Nova insider) long before Blaudschuns article. And when that article came out, the very next morning BC insiders said Flipper was being raked over the coals by Pitt and Cuse and much of the ACC--had been called to the President's office. What were they mad about? ESPN was screaming.

That put a stop to expansion.

Do you not remember the articles that subsequently came out about Virginia and Corrigan and ND?
 

pj

Joined
Mar 30, 2012
Messages
8,736
Reaction Score
25,812
Why is it so difficult for some here to accept the fact that Frank is right on a lot of his points. We are not so obvious a choice as we would like to believe. I have said it many times in the past, the perception of UConn outside of CT is not overwhelming. If we were as strong as some think we would have been taken by either the B1G or ACC by now. If BC was able to stop us when it came down to us or Pitt it is because most ACC schools did not see much of a difference between us and Pitt. The fact that we see a vast difference does not matter. If the B1G took RU over us it is because the majority of schools there thought they were a better pick. No amount of complaining about the fact that "they don't bring the NYC market" matters. RU was considered a better choice by the B1G. This may bother a lot of us but, there it is. UConn needs to improve FB fast while maintaining MBB (WBB does not matter) and then hopefully the perception will change.

Frank is right on a lot of points but he just isn't consistent. He doesn't assess value in a business-like way. He has schools he likes who are good at one thing, and he emphasizes the importance of that one thing. He has schools he dislikes and when discussing them he discusses only the metrics in which they are weak. He doesn't make a balanced assessment of value or think like an entrepreneur: how much would this school be worth in combination with my assets?

No one has ever disputed that Rutgers was a better choice than us for the B1G. What is in dispute is over who is next after Rutgers? The presence of Rutgers in the B1G actually enhances UConn's value to the B1G. UConn increases the payoff to the Rutgers invitation, and the presence of Rutgers increases the payoff to a UConn invite.

Most ACC schools did not see a difference between us and Pitt because their assessment of value was based entirely on conversations with ESPN, and ESPN would pay them the same amount per school whether they chose Pitt, Louisville, or UConn. So they were able to make decisions that were totally divorced from market or TV value. From ESPN's point of view, they had UConn's rights via the AAC (or an option to keep UConn's rights), so they had no need to pimp UConn to the ACC to be able to exploit UConn's value. They risked losing Louisville and Pitt (especially, WVU rival) to the B12. This was just a game theory thing and in the peculiar situation of the ACC UConn came out short just because we are the most geographically distant school from the B12.
 
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
538
Reaction Score
182
I can't believe you're still pushing the whole carriage fees angle. You're totally ignoring the pro teams that are on SNY and acting as if UConn is driving the entire $2.55 /subscriber value. If you really want to make that claim I guess you should add FSD(Fox Sports Detroit) to BTN since there's some T3 Michigan content there too :rolleyes:

If UConn content is such a slam dunk why did you guys sell out the licensing rights to SNY (I can't find the exact numbers on-line) and then divide that money equally to all Big East conference members that stabbed you in the back?
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
Messages
405
Reaction Score
458
Actually, Frank is convinced that most people here are biased toward UConn. What he has trouble accepting is that we actually have a grasp on objective facts.

Frank constantly shifts the metrics so that UConn always comes out on the short end of the stick in realignment attractiveness. Rutgers has no sports accomplishments and no national following, but it has a big market. OK, with Rutgers off the table UConn now has the biggest market -- but market no longer matters, now it's Kansas's academics and national brand. But UConn equals Kansas's national basketball brand and academics and research, and lies in a bigger market. Oh, but that doesn't matter -- what matters is that Kansas would bring with it football powerhouse Oklahoma. But Oklahoma is a Connecticut-sized market without NYC nearby, and is feeble in academics and research, which B1G Presidents have named as requirements. Oklahoma's football brand is balanced by UConn's basketball brand. Frank says the B1G values football brands, and valued Florida State far above UConn, even though FSU is inferior in academic and research terms to UConn, shares its state with 4 other major football schools plus three pro teams, and is not geographically contiguous to the B1G footprint. Why didn't the B1G want Florida State? Geographic contiguity is important to them ... which leads us back to UConn.

It's hard to avoid the perception that Frank is projecting his own preferences onto the B1G. In my view Delany is now thinking more like a television executive than a football fan -- because he now is, essentially, a television executive -- and therefore he clearly sees the value of UConn and further penetration of the northeast.

Of course UNC, UVa, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas are major prizes -- if they are available. But what has to happen to pry them free for the B1G? UConn is similarly attractive to Kansas and Oklahoma and readily available.

Well, I'll be honest. You're one of the first people that I've come across that has actually said that I'm not somehow looking at the business side. Normally, I'm accused of breaking everything down into TV values, markets and revenue without caring about the on-the-field side of the equation. The line that I used in the first paragraph of the first post that I wrote on Big Ten expansion in 2009 that still gets 100 or so hits per day even now was, "Think like a university president and NOT like a fan."

To the extent that there are shifting metrics, they're from the conferences themselves, NOT me. They aren't static and set in stone. The ACC is a perfect example: in 2011, they would only look at certain schools that met a certain academic standard, yet in 2012, they had to add a "football school" regardless of academics. (As much as I hate to give credence to anything that West Virginia bloggers say, I'll agree with them that WVU would have been acceptable to the ACC in 2012 in a way that they weren't prior to that time.) What the Big Ten did in 2012 with adding Maryland and Rutgers in terms of adding population needs to be looked at in conjunction with (and not separate from) the Nebraska addition in 2010. That shows a holistic approach - television households AND national brand names matter. These aren't mutually exclusive concepts. So yes, how a pairing with UConn would work greatly matters (because the Big Ten sure as heck isn't expanding to 15 for anyone, including Notre Dame). Is UConn plus Kansas worth more than Kansas plus Oklahoma? Is UConn plus anyone worth more than UVA plus UNC? That's why I keep repeating that this isn't a vacuum - timing is a big deal in conference realignment and who is willing to move in other conferences is just as much of a big deal, too. There are some bedrock principles (i.e. the Big Ten's academic requirements), but the overall ground is ALWAYS shifting with conferences' needs changing and individual targets moving up and down the pecking order.

You're saying that Jim Delany is thinking like a TV executive, which is correct, but you're making the wrong assumption that the only element of this is the Big Ten Network. What I've found is a lot of people prior to conference realignment starting up in 2009 didn't realize how important the BTN was on the college sports landscape (including how basic cable subscriber fees worked), as fans from outside the Big Ten thought that they "obviously" couldn't get anyone because of "boring basketball and football" (I can't tell you how many times that I've seen that ridiculous comment), yet now it has swung in the opposite direction where they think that the BTN is *everything*. This simply isn't the case. Even with a currently badly undervalued ESPN contract, the Big Ten's revenue from the BTN is still only around 60% of what it receives from ESPN. Once again, this is with a circa 2006 ESPN contract. Certainly, the BTN is absolutely important, but when the Big Ten ends up selling its current ESPN package to the open market in 2016, the league is expecting that package is going to bring in about 3 or 4 times as much as the BTN. When you see those huge figures that the Big Ten had projected to Maryland (and trust me, those aren't pie-in-the-sky numbers) starting in a couple of years, the vast majority of it is attributed to by how much the top national Big Ten package is going to be worth on the open market. That package is going to be dictated much more by a school like Nebraska (and more by a school like Oklahoma) than a school like Rutgers. So, can a TV executive conclude that a small market national brand name can still draw in more TV revenue to a conference than a large market team without any good branding, even if that conference has its own TV network? Absolutely. As I keep saying here, it's not an accident that Nebraska was picked FIRST by the Big Ten (and everyone knew the importance of the BTN when that happened).

There are going to be various strands looked at: national TV value for ESPN (or Fox or whoever pays for the national package), basic cable households for the BTN, football branding, graduate research academics, recruiting areas for both football players and regular students, etc. Some of these are more important than others, but I believe the academics portion is more of a "all or nothing" standard (either you meet a minimal level of academic standing or you don't - all academically "eligible" schools are in the same pool, so if the Big Ten ultimately finds School A and School B to meet that bar, the fact that School A is higher ranked academically doesn't matter if School B is bringing in more athletic dollars). From that point, the national TV value, basic cable households and football branding are the next 3 most important factors by far. UConn arguably can score well on the basic cable household metric. However, the national TV value (largely football-based, although I once again don't understand how much people are underestimating how much pull Kansas has nationally for basketball - that's a legitimately timeless program that can get by with just putting "KANSAS" on the jersey and draw viewers without regard to how well they're playing in a given year and the TV ratings continue to bear that out) and football branding metrics are where the school needs improvement, and those are what UConn needs to have shored up by the time the next round of realignment occurs. And this is of course assuming that there's another desirable school willing to move to the Big Ten, too.

Look - like I've said, I was convinced that the ACC was going to take UConn back in November. People can blame BC or Florida State or whoever else all that they want, but looking back, there were some pretty clear red flags (some of which UConn can conceivably control, such as football performance going forward, and others that it can't, such as the fact that its FBS program is young). I ultimately believe that UConn can get into a power conference, but it's more likely to be the Big 12 in an eastward expansion than the Big Ten.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
29,618
Reaction Score
47,825
I can't believe you're still pushing the whole carriage fees angle. You're totally ignoring the pro teams that are on SNY and acting as if UConn is driving the entire $2.55 /subscriber value. If you really want to make that claim I guess you should add FSD(Fox Sports Detroit) to BTN since there's some T3 Michigan content there too :rolleyes:

If UConn content is such a slam dunk why did you guys sell out the licensing rights to SNY (I can't find the exact numbers on-line) and then divide that money equally to all Big East conference members that stabbed you in the back?

Still can't believe you guys dismiss it. Fees jumped from $1.45 to $2.50 with the addition of UConn. You act like that's nothing. NOT to mention the fees landed SNY on Basic. Not to mention the fact that additional cable systems picked itup. When you get 8+ ratings for bball and .4 for Mets, what the hell do you think people are paying for? Do you know anything about Conn. and the popularity of the Mets? We went through this before in the last thread. My God, what the hell is wrong with you people? The most hard-headed people out there.

Why did UConn sell its rights to the BE? Because it didn't want to join the MAC?

You ask the weirdest questions. Why is Michigan sharing with Northwestern?
 
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
1,776
Reaction Score
1,381
Care to be specific? What points?

It's worthless posting in general if we don't know what you agree with him on.

If you're talking about BC, have you even read the articles? Do you even know what was going on behind the scenes? This was a remarkably mucky thing. You're looking at BC, Pitt and Cuse as automatically being better than UConn BECAUSE it was passed over (and if that's your logic, what's the point of debating this?), but when you look at the metrics, the only conclusion you can draw is that the ACC made the wrong decisions again and again. Look at the TV, for instance. look at the accomplishment (you bring up football above, care to look at UConn's record v. Pitt and Cuse?).

I posted this before on a another thread, but the whole 2011 expansion had a lot of backroom dealing with ND and UConn close to joining. Insiders posted that here. Another posted that on the Rutgers board (he was a Nova insider) long before Blaudschuns article. And when that article came out, the very next morning BC insiders said Flipper was being raked over the coals by Pitt and Cuse and much of the ACC--had been called to the President's office. What were they mad about? ESPN was screaming.

That put a stop to expansion.

Do you not remember the articles that subsequently came out about Virginia and Corrigan and ND?

No, I have not read all the articles and really don't claim to know what went on behind the scenes as the B1G and ACC made their decisions. My guess is that very few people do and for the most part they do not post on internet boards. You can cite all the data you want about how valuable UConn is, I for one don't doubt the data you post, however value seems to be very much in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure all of your data was available to the B1G and ACC. To date we are still in the AAC looking in from the cold. Is it because there exists a vast conspiracy to harm UConn , (ESPN, BC, Cuse, Pitt, FSU.....etc.), left over questions from the legal action following the original ACC raid, or because at least to date other schools have been perceived as more value? I guess we can all make up our own minds.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Online statistics

Members online
337
Guests online
1,980
Total visitors
2,317

Forum statistics

Threads
158,872
Messages
4,171,820
Members
10,042
Latest member
twdaylor104


.
Top Bottom