Possible Big 12 Invite rumors

[businesslawyer]

I wonder how the football schools were able to negotiate basketball subsidizing everything else while they keep their entire paycheck. I don’t know the history behind that, but yeah. It’s crazy to think that if football was paying the bills instead of NCAAT, then the basketball schools like UConn would be the most sought after school in conference realignment

It's historical, not conspiratorial. When the NCAA started by using hoops tourney money to fund their own operations, rather than ask for more in dues, the money involved wasn't a fraction of what it is today. If the system was started from scratch today, it wouldn't be what it currently is.

 

[Bazz4A]

Yes...that's why I am pro-B12. I love the Big East and it would suck to leave, but it's a move that would put UConn in a position that we have literally never been before, which is in the drivers seat for realignment when the ACC explodes - either in 2036 when they meet their expiration date, or in a few years. We need to already have a seat at the table when Cuse, Pitt, Louisville, GA Tech, Miami, Wake, etc are looking for a new home.

Preface this with the fact I’m genuinely asking, not rhetorically. Isn’t there a possibility, that if/when the acc implodes, uconn can join cuse Pitt Louisville duke bc Georgia tech, and a few others and add them to the big east? Miami cares too much about football to join that. But then we could have a 10 team football league, and a 20 team total league w/ basketball? Wouldn’t that be 70% as attractive as Big 12 for football, and equally as attractive in basketball and geo? You think those former acc teams would still prefer big 12 over that? Again, genuine question.

 

[aburks41]

Preface this with the fact I’m genuinely asking, not rhetorically. Isn’t there a possibility, that if/when the acc implodes, uconn can join cuse Pitt Louisville duke bc Georgia tech, and a few others and add them to the big east? Miami cares too much about football to join that. But then we could have a 10 team football league, and a 20 team total league w/ basketball? Wouldn’t that be 70% as attractive as Big 12 for football, and equally as attractive in basketball and geo? You think those former acc teams would still prefer big 12 over that? Again, genuine question.

My entire point is that UConn would be in the drivers seat for that scenario. We would have the option of lobbying for those schools to join the B12, OR we leave the B12 and band together with those to merge with the Big East.

If we are stuck in the Big East and that day comes, we are suddenly competing with those schools to either join the B12, or praying that they all collectively decide to merge with the Big East. We would be at their mercy rather than the other way around

 

[upstater]

I'd love to see the Rent sold out, but even $1M per home game isn't make a huge dent in our deficit. That's $6M per year on a deficit of $45M.

I know the state kicks in money to cover the deficit, but what happens if a few years down the road we get politicians in office who have no connection to UConn, and therefore no desire to keep funding a massive deficit? That's my biggest fear. The state has zero obligation to cover UConn AD's deficit the way they currently are

I've never understood this point.

How is the state covering UConn's deficit?

The deficit is paid for by the school.

UConn has been jacking up tuition at a far faster pace than most schools in its cohort.

UConn subsidy has gone from $681m in 2014, dropped to $613m in 2018, rose to $753m last year (after the act passed by congress ARPA). But UConn has been foisted with additional liabilities by the state that it never had before: $53m in liabilities in 2018 turned to $106m in 2022. Granted, everyone is seeing things like health insurance for employees shoot to the sky, BUT in terms of their fiscal balance sheet, there's no running away from the fact that although UConn has seen a $72m rise in funding over the past 10 years, it has incurred an additional $53m in state liabilities. This means it has received $19m in additional funding.

If state politicians are making the argument that part of the $753m has always been intended to fund athletics, then this naturally means that the state has effectively DEFUNDED UConn since 2014.

At the end of the day, though, it's one budget.

 

[CL82]

I'd love to see the Rent sold out, but even $1M per home game isn't make a huge dent in our deficit. That's $6M per year on a deficit of $45M.

I know the state kicks in money to cover the deficit, but what happens if a few years down the road we get politicians in office who have no connection to UConn, and therefore no desire to keep funding a massive deficit? That's my biggest fear. The state has zero obligation to cover UConn AD's deficit the way they currently are

Yeah, but that's kind of the point, right? If $6 million per year isn't making a dent in a $40 million deficit, is the $4 million a year we get for a media distribution from the big east making one?

If I recall correctly we were pretty consistently around 38,000 when we were successful. No reason to think that wouldn't happen again.

 

[Billy Jack]

He means regional in the sense that it's northeastern and midwestern.

Thank you. But isn’t every conference regional? So, how does that distinguish the Big East from anyone else? The Big East basically occupies the same footprint as the Big Ten - at least until UCLA and USC join - except that the Big East footprint extend into NY and New England while the Big Ten stops at NJ.

 

[Drew]

Taking football out of the equation, the Big East is the ideal conference for UConn sports. Does anyone disagree?

Vehemently.

 

[aburks41]

Yeah, but that's kind of the point, right? If $6 million per year isn't making a dent in a $40 million deficit, is the $4 million a year we get for a media distribution from the big east making one?

If I recall correctly we were pretty consistently around 38,000 when we were successful. No reason to think that wouldn't happen again.

It will happen again if we are able to give Mora the resources he needs to stick around and build up the program. That would be a lot easier if we had an extra $50M in our pockets to do it.

The reason why football got into the mess that it got into is because we didn't have the money to spend to pay good coaches. We got bargain bin coaches and they produced garbage results

 

[Drew]

It will happen again if we are able to give Mora the resources he needs to stick around and build up the program. That would be a lot easier if we had an extra $50M in our pockets to do it.

The reason why football got into the mess that it got into is because we didn't have the money to spend to pay good coaches. We got bargain bin coaches and they produced garbage results

It’s hilarious to me to watch people blame the AAC for UConn’s issues as if we didn’t hire Randy Freaking Edsall off the bargain bin.

There was a point in time where the 4 full time basketball coaches were making more money than the entire 11 football coaching staff. That’s absolutely ABSURD.

 

[CL82]

It will happen again if we are able to give Mora the resources he needs to stick around and build up the program. That would be a lot easier if we had an extra $50M in our pockets to do it.

The reason why football got into the mess that it got into is because we didn't have the money to spend to pay good coaches. We got bargain bin coaches and they produced garbage results

I'm not so sure about that. I think it was less a matter of bargain basement couches and more a matter of bad coaching hires. Pasqualoni had success at Syracuse and in the NFL, and was a favorite of Connecticut high school coaches, but it seems like the game had passed him by a bit and he struggled to produce results. Bob Diaco was a Broyles award winner. He was a hot young coach and seemed by any reasonable standard to be a good hire. Unfortunately, he was also clinically insane which, as it turns out, is an impediment to running a successful football program.

 

[huskymedic]

Taking football out of the equation, the Big East is the ideal conference for UConn sports. Does anyone disagree?

The Big East is not the ideal conference for UConn Baseball. It is limiting their potential.

 

[superjohn]

I'm not so sure about that. I think it was less a matter of bargain basement couches and more a matter of bad coaching hires. Pasqualoni had success at Syracuse and in the NFL, and was a favorite of Connecticut high school coaches, but it seems like the game had passed him by a bit and he struggled to produce results. Bob Diaco was a Broyles award winner. He was a hot young coach and seemed by any reasonable standard to be a good hire. Unfortunately, he was also clinically insane which, as it turns out, is an impediment to running a successful football program.

And Randy 2.0 was even more pathetic and embarrassing than the other two. We went bargain basement hunting on that one and it was deserving of failure since we thought it was smart going back to the snake.

 

[aburks41]

I'm not so sure about that. I think it was less a matter of bargain basement couches and more a matter of bad coaching hires. Pasqualoni had success at Syracuse and in the NFL, and was a favorite of Connecticut high school coaches, but it seems like the game had passed him by a bit and he struggled to produce results. Bob Diaco was a Broyles award winner. He was a hot young coach and seemed by any reasonable standard to be a good hire. Unfortunately, he was also clinically insane which, as it turns out, is an impediment to running a successful football program.

We paid Pasqualoni $1.5M/yr coming off of a BCS Bowl game. That's bargain bin shopping. Diaco never would have been a coach at UConn if we had been able to spend $3M-5M on a real coach in 2011.

 

[WestHartHusk]

Preface this with the fact I’m genuinely asking, not rhetorically. Isn’t there a possibility, that if/when the acc implodes, uconn can join cuse Pitt Louisville duke bc Georgia tech, and a few others and add them to the big east? Miami cares too much about football to join that. But then we could have a 10 team football league, and a 20 team total league w/ basketball? Wouldn’t that be 70% as attractive as Big 12 for football, and equally as attractive in basketball and geo? You think those former acc teams would still prefer big 12 over that? Again, genuine question.

The hybrid Big East was really that much fun for you, was it?

If we don't get in the door now, if the ACC implodes we are once again on the outside competing to get in. There is no chance Pitt, Louisville, Cuse are going to choose the Big East over the Big 12. None. We are the only school that even thinks this is a choice, which probably goes a long way to explaining why we are in the position we are in at all.

 

[Bazz4A]

My entire point is that UConn would be in the drivers seat for that scenario. We would have the option of lobbying for those schools to join the B12, OR we leave the B12 and band together with those to merge with the Big East.

If we are stuck in the Big East and that day comes, we are suddenly competing with those schools to either join the B12, or praying that they all collectively decide to merge with the Big East. We would be at their mercy rather than the other way around

Ok that’s fair - but isn’t there a possibility that if all this happens short term, big 12 could have some pretty stiff language that prevents us from leaving if we decide the big east is now more attractive? Idk why they’d let us in if we could just jump ship in 5 years or less. And if the worst case scenario is those former ACC Teams get to join the big 12 and we get left out and stay in the current big east, I’m ok with that.

 

[Drew]

There have been so many bad football administrative decisions made I don’t have time to list them all but hiring PP after Edsall left the first time over Joe Moorhead or someone similar really sealed our fate in terms of people not taking us seriously as a football program

 

[Billy Jack]

I think the common denominator on basketball programs leaving the BE and then deteriorating was a coaching issue. Bad coaching leads to weakened recruiting and poor performance. 4 and 5 stars wanna play for a top program with coaching that can win titles and get them to the NBA. It happened with Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, BC, and UConn. UConn brings the right coach in and they're right back to the top. The other programs - nope!!

That’s one piece of it although there was no coaching issue at Syracuse and Louisville hired what appeared to be good coaches with a proven track record as did Pitt. The fact that coaching is an issue doesn’t mean there are not other issues.

A better measure than coaches is attendance. Syracuse attendance, for example, is at a 20 year low. BC, as another example, showed an initial surge in attendance when they joined the ACC, but attendance declined after those first 2 year’s even while Al Skinner was still the coach and the program was still successful on the court, regularly producing 20-win seasons and getting post season bids.

 

[Billy Jack]

I wonder how the football schools were able to negotiate basketball subsidizing everything else while they keep their entire paycheck. I don’t know the history behind that, but yeah. It’s crazy to think that if football was paying the bills instead of NCAAT, then the basketball schools like UConn would be the most sought after school in conference realignment

There was no negotiating involved. The NCAA owns the basketball tournament and has since they started sponsoring it in 1939. They distribute the money as they see fit. Initially it cost schools money to send their teams to the NCAA basketball tournament, but teams were paid money to participate in the NIT. That’s why some teams would go to the NIT instead of the NCAA or would participate in both. Today the NCAA keeps the vast majority of revenue from the tournament to cover its institutional expenses for everything else it does.

Football’s postseason has been about the bowl system forever. Each bowl game is independently owned, so the NCAA has nothing to say about how the revenue is distributed. Football schools and/or conferences can start their own bowls if they want or enter into agreements with existing bowls for whatever they can negotiate with them.

 

[manbyrd]

Preface this with the fact I’m genuinely asking, not rhetorically. Isn’t there a possibility, that if/when the acc implodes, uconn can join cuse Pitt Louisville duke bc Georgia tech, and a few others and add them to the big east? Miami cares too much about football to join that. But then we could have a 10 team football league, and a 20 team total league w/ basketball? Wouldn’t that be 70% as attractive as Big 12 for football, and equally as attractive in basketball and geo? You think those former acc teams would still prefer big 12 over that? Again, genuine question.

I think the revenue split between basketball-only and football schools will always be a contention. Even if you get the split exactly fair, the TV networks have to value it fairly and the conference breakup fee would have to be outsized so that any of the 10-member football schools don't get poached again by bigger conferences. Not impossible but seems incredibly difficult.

 

[JohnFSilver]

Taking football out of the equation, the Big East is the ideal conference for UConn sports. Does anyone disagree?

UConn is an outlier in the Big East in that it’s the only university that has P5 level aspirations for football.

Those aspirations should never get in the way of UConn being a BB power. That is who we are…that is our identity…a basketball power. Compromise that, and we’ve lost our identity.

I like the path the football program is on right now. Continue under Mora building up the program to being nationally relevant while playing an independent schedule.

Then wait for the offers to come in from a P5 conference that’s strong and stable, the B1G, instead of jumping into a Big 12 conference thats in a state of flux that will take us either down or up with it.

Why take on that risk when we don’t need to? We’re on a path of increasing our value to all P5 conferences with each year under Mora. We have the right coach at the right time who’s going to elevate our football program.

Let’s put ourselves in a position where we have multiple suitors, not just the one whom, when you do your due diligence and look under the hood, wonder whether it’ll hold up for more than a few years.

No. Big 10 and some ACC schools are closer to what UConn wants to be.

UConn wants to be Virginia, North Carolina - state flagship. Rutgers, penn state, Maryland - that kind of school and athletic profile is their peer.

The Big East cathokic school focus, while massively successful, isn’t really an institutional fit culture wise. That doesn’t matter, as the basketball in the big east aligns well. But that is just one sport.

 

[MuchoDogYears]

The Big East is not the ideal conference for UConn Baseball. It is limiting their potential.

Yes, that’s true.

By “ideal” I meant that the Big East conference members have a similar interest level overall in sports. The amount of resources each Big East member allocates to their sports programs is probably equivalent within reason.

Some programs prioritize certain sports more than other members. That’s natural. Yes, UConn’s baseball team would be better positioned in a warm weather P5 conference than the Big East.

Women’s volleyball would be better positioned elsewhere also if they want to become a big time player.

No conference alone is going to provide the highest and best platform for every collegiate sport. As long as conference members have similar resources and goals then it’s “ideal” for each member. When overall sports goals and resources for a member changes, then the fit is no longer ideal.

 

[John]

That’s one piece of it although there was no coaching issue at Syracuse and Louisville hired what appeared to be good coaches with a proven track record as did Pitt. The fact that coaching is an issue doesn’t mean there are not other issues.

A better measure than coaches is attendance. Syracuse attendance, for example, is at a 20 year low. BC, as another example, showed an initial surge in attendance when they joined the ACC, but attendance declined after those first 2 year’s even while Al Skinner was still the coach and the program was still successful on the court, regularly producing 20-win seasons and getting post season bids.

Pitt's hire was on the verge of getting s***canned at Vandy, it was a dumb hire (as was pushing Dixon out the door).

 

[Rocktheworld]

The problem is we saw what happened to the Cuse, Pitt, and Louisville basketball programs when they left for more money and supposed greener pastures in the ACC, a conference they never fit with culturally. UConn in the Big 12 would be further out of place culturally than they were, with the added stress of ridiculous travel and lack of geographical rivals that fans care about. Of course the Big 12 has some better programs, but these are the same problems we had in the AAC and I just don't understand how so many people just assume we will be able to keep our identity and elite level in basketball if we move. The grass is not always greener on the other side.

Occam’s Razor. Pitt lost Jamie Dixon, Louisville lost Pitino, and Boeheim became a dinosaur. They’d all be better otherwise.

Now if Hurley threatened to leave if we made the move, that changes the calculus on things a bit.

 

[kobe]

No. Big 10 and some ACC schools are closer to what UConn wants to be.

UConn wants to be Virginia, North Carolina - state flagship. Rutgers, penn state, Maryland - that kind of school and athletic profile is their peer.

The Big East cathokic school focus, while massively successful, isn’t really an institutional fit culture wise. That doesn’t matter, as the basketball in the big east aligns well. But that is just one sport.

glad to see uconn fans are coming to grips with the fact that they are in a mid major church league.

admission is the first step.

 

[aburks41]

Ok that’s fair - but isn’t there a possibility that if all this happens short term, big 12 could have some pretty stiff language that prevents us from leaving if we decide the big east is now more attractive? Idk why they’d let us in if we could just jump ship in 5 years or less. And if the worst case scenario is those former ACC Teams get to join the big 12 and we get left out and stay in the current big east, I’m ok with that.

The current/"upcoming" B12 deal ends in 2030. There is a GOR as well. The ACC GOR is until 2036. The B12 will likely end their next, next media deal in 2036 when the current ACC deal ends.

And I would also give it about a 1% chance that the ACC remnants would want to merge with a UConn-less Big East with the likes of Butler, Seton Hall, Xavier, and Providence. If Pitt, Cuse, Duke, Louisville, etc join the B12 and we aren't in it, our athletic department deserves to wither away into nothingness. That would be the biggest blunder of all time.

 

[MuchoDogYears]

No. Big 10 and some ACC schools are closer to what UConn wants to be.

UConn wants to be Virginia, North Carolina - state flagship. Rutgers, penn state, Maryland - that kind of school and athletic profile is their peer.

The Big East cathokic school focus, while massively successful, isn’t really an institutional fit culture wise. That doesn’t matter, as the basketball in the big east aligns well. But that is just one sport.

Fair enough argument. Depends on what level UConn wants to have its overall sports programs be at. Where UConn's sports programs are right now, the Big East is a great fit.

If UConn wants to elevate all sports, while keeping academic values in line with other members, the ACC would be a better fit as would the B1G. Not sold on the Big 12.

 

[CL82]

And Randy 2.0 was even more pathetic and embarrassing than the other two. We went bargain basement hunting on that one and it was deserving of failure since we thought it was smart going back to the snake.

Yeah, Randy 2.0 you can make a good argument was money driven. Still, he was our most successful football coach and so bringing him back wasn't entirely illogical.

 

[CL82]

We paid Pasqualoni $1.5M/yr coming off of a BCS Bowl game. That's bargain bin shopping. Diaco never would have been a coach at UConn if we had been able to spend $3M-5M on a real coach in 2011.

I'm not sure that's true. Again, by the metrics he was a smart hire. He just didn't turn out to be one.

 

[CL82]

glad to see uconn fans are coming to grips with the fact that they are in a mid major church league.

admission is the first step.

That's five time national champion UConn to you, my friend.

 

[aburks41]

I'm not sure that's true. Again, by the metrics he was a smart hire. He just didn't turn out to be one.

If we had a $3M budget, would Pasqualoni still be a smart hire? Or was he just the only guy we could find with a decent pedigree who was willing to work for $1.5M?