Not arguing your general point but going into today's game but Kia has more turnovers than everyone except Gabby. There are times during the season where she has forced the issue. That's said I believe she is the key leader on the team. Also, saying the others are better overall players doesn't mean she is not great.
Poll Which Three Players Should UConn Nominate for WBCA AA
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Not arguing your general point but going into today's game but Kia has more turnovers than everyone except Gabby. There are times during the season where she has forced the issue. That's said I believe she is the key leader on the team. Also, saying the others are better overall players doesn't mean she is not great.
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I see no need for me to design another poll YOUR POLL IS NEARLY SATISFACTORY
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it means you have decided to look beyond the imperfections
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If UCONN goes undefeated in reg season, I can't imagine not having two 1st team all-americans.
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I agree with a lot of what you say on other posts. Maybe some minor stuff had small differences. But here I'm not sure the point you are trying to make. Every player "at times forces the issue" if they are any good. Today Nurse didn't shoot well, as result if she shoot just "pretty good" and not "great" for the rest of the season then I would agree with those that say she isn't an a/a player. However to knock her passing, I think you're dialing up the wrong number here. Using your logic, one could say the same thing about John Stockton that you are saying about Kia. He led his team in turnovers. Below is one year as an example. And I'm sure he forced some passes too, right?
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This question is interesting but counterproductive. UCONN is a team, the whole greater than the individual parts. I don't want the core-four fighting it out. Stats or popularity, we have four worthy candidates. Let's nominate them all and let the system sort it out. The remarkable part is this undefeated, record-setting group started the fall with NO pre-season All Americans.
I was just being objective and commenting to other poster who said Kia makes less mistakes than anyone. Being second on team with turnovers suggests that perhaps it was over stated. I think all four are great, but truth be told I probably take the other three over Kia but it's not because I think she makes mistakes.... It's simply the other three are more talented.
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I agree to an extent. This team is so much fun to over-analyze!!!!
Anyhow, who of the two do you think will be the better WNBA pro? Or do you think one or two won't make it?
You
You know, Lou playing guard at 6'3" with a mature, diverse, but still improving offensive game jumps out. By the time she leaves UConn her defense will be even better not that it's bad now, just not as impactful as the other two. I can see Lou being an allstar at the 2 or 3.
Pheese is harder to pin because not sure how her game will translate as pro against even bigger and taller opponents. Her fade away, use of glass and knack for finding the ball tells me she will be successful. She also looks as if she will keep working on expanding her range. The thing about Pheese is she is so controlled it's easy to miss what she does until you look at stat sheet.
And despite the points I have made about Gabby, if she continues to work on her offense I would think she has a high cieling. She lost some years to both injury and being on track in comparison to the others who played more and abroad before attending UConn.
You know, Lou playing guard at 6'3" with a mature, diverse, but still improving offensive game jumps out. By the time she leaves UConn her defense will be even better not that it's bad now, just not as impactful as the other two. I can see Lou being an allstar at the 2 or 3.
Pheese is harder to pin because not sure how her game will translate as pro against even bigger and taller opponents. Her fade away, use of glass and knack for finding the ball tells me she will be successful. She also looks as if she will keep working on expanding her range. The thing about Pheese is she is so controlled it's easy to miss what she does until you look at stat sheet.
And despite the points I have made about Gabby, if she continues to work on her offense I would think she has a high cieling. She lost some years to both injury and being on track in comparison to the others who played more and abroad before attending UConn.
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The AA awards rules are not set by UCONN, but the Huskies of Honor rules are. It's unfortunate that they tied the one to the other. I understand that as Geno explained they had to use some yardstick, but still it hurts when you consider the possibility that Kia (or one the others) might miss out on the recognition they deserve in their own gym.
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If there were a "Boneyard Huskies of Honor," every player who ever started on a UCONN team would be on it. If everyone goes up on the wall then it loses its meaning. I like the HOH rule - the player must be recognized by the WBCA, not just by UConn fans.
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Completely disagree and have noticed that you have a similar thought in your posts. Gabby is the more rounded player in the paint as she can score over stronger players, she is the best defender on the team and unlike Collier can make the passes which gets Collier her open looks at the basket. KLS is a no brainer she is the most skilled offensively, a great passer, plays good defense being able to switch on any player especially with Williams, is the first scout by the opposing teams, and along with Williams garners double teams, from which they both can make the right decisions to get to the open player. If you add in Nurse who spreads the defense with her shooting and driving ability, defense specialist, you have 3 players whom without, there would be no open lanes or 1 on 1 mismatches in the paint.
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I generally don't go back and forth in threads. I chose to state my position and read when others state their, sometimes contrary, views. But since you called me out specifically ....
I love Gabby's game. Gabby has excellent passing skills but mostly they don't get Collier her open looks. Collier gets open and Gabby's is excellent at getting the ball to her. This may sound like semantics but it is not. I suggest you look at the games and focus on Collier before she gets the ball. She battles and fights for position. She understands angles to the passer, she "shows her numbers" in a way that gives a lane for passes. She is great at holding the defender off with her arm or backside creating space and a lane for the pass. Sometimes that lane is very small and that is where Gabby's passing is so crucial. Collier has great timing for when to work for position in relation to where the ball is on the floor. She then is great at turning her numbers to the person with the ball. She signals by raising her hand -- and by the way, please note the positioning of her hand, she doesn't just stick it straight up but usually angles it to a free space, quite subtle but excellent, and that tells the passer where the pass should be made. Many of Collier's points come when she is covered and uses an array of moves to create space (including a great fade-away move) to get her shot off. Collier gets few screens set for her to break her free. This is not to mention her rebounds and put-backs.
By the way, KLS doesn't play in the post (mostly) and rarely switches onto the person Williams is guarding. She plays the wing defensively (when they are playing man-to-man defense). Collier is in the blocks defensively with Williams (mostly). Which is part of the reason why Collier averages 3.7 rebounds a game more than KLS (but also because Collier is a great rebounder). If you look at the SMU game, KLS was not asked to guard either one of the post players who were 6'3" and 6'5". That job fell to Williams and Collier (and Butler). I watched that game again and did not see one defensive set where KLS guarded either one of them (or switched with Gabby for that matter).
You are also wrong if you think that Gabby is garnering double teams. Again, rewatching the SMU game that rarely happened. That rarely happens in any game for any UConn player. That is the beauty of the construction of this team with scoring from 5 players. That is not to say that when a UConn player gets the ball in good scoring position and is open a second player may not run to her or the zone doesn't collapse creating open shots for other players. But teams don't double down immediately on Gabby when the ball goes to her in the post or at the top of the key. When teams play man-to-man. It just doesn't happen.
I will say again I love Gabby's game but if you think she is a more "rounded' or skilled offensive player than Collier you are just wrong again. First you are statistically wrong ... and not by a little. Collier leads in scoring average (19.3 to 11.9), field goal percentage (65% to 53% both really good), 3-pt field goal percentage (41% to 25% on small sample sizes) and free throw percentage (79% to 70%). You might say that is because Collier takes more shots and she does. But she only averages 2.75 more shots a game but averages 7.4 points more. Beyond statistics, Collier just has more moves and a great "go to" move at this point. I think that Gabby's offensive game will continue to grow but right now Collier is more well "rounded" offensively.
I think the Core Four are amazing and bring something essential to this winning team. If I had to pick three, which is what this post asks, I still say KLS, Collier and Gabby.
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So you think Kia will be a better pro than Gabby?
I think Gabby has more potential at the next level purely based on being a (type of) world class track and field athlete. Her defense is game changing and will translate at the next level. I believe it to be better than Kia's in the sense that she creates turnovers and is more impactful on making plays on players she is not guarding, meaning blocks and steals. Again Kia is solid but her ceiling is not as high. She will also be able to rebound well from the 2/3, meaning in comparison to numbers for those positions.
On the offensive side I have made comments on other threads on Gabby's lack of offensive skill set, and I dont' care how high she can jump, at the next level you are talking about the Briana, Stokes, Griner, etc... and its more about positioning so her making a living on just the inside as a 4/5 is not gonna happen. She really needs a better repertoire. The last game I do not think she scored on anything but a layup, and most times that is the case with either one or two jump shots from foul line. I would guess three outside shots in a game is her high. That upsets some folks when I said that but its the truth. It might be me but when is the last time you saw her hit a baseline jumper or pull-up on a drive? She does have a one hand jump shot in the lane that I see sometimes too. She doesn't necessarily need to be a 3pt specialist but she needs to be able to hit from mid-range more consistently and from more spots on the floor. She also needs a pull up jumper so when she does drive she can have the option to stop and shoot, and not have it contested at the rim against the 4/5 at the next level.
I think Gabby will be drafted higher but Kia may get more play time early on because she is just a bit more well rounded for the 2 position. Obviously after the first couple games she has shown consistent shooting from all over the floor. She can hit from three, mid-range and does often show a pull-up jumper. I just do not know how explosive she will be at next level which can limit her from role player to a solid starter. They both are good passers.
The one thing about Gabby is I think people think because she has the most assists she is the best passer, it may not occur to them that since she has less ways to score she will pass it more often as the ball moves around the offense. i.e. When Lou has any breathing room its going up unless they are running a play for someone or Geno wants X amount of touches before a shot. The game Kia had 30+ points could Gabby have that kind of night meaning when she is open nail all those outside shots (even if they were not from 3 point range?) She would be passing the ball to someone else which includes all the great finishers UConn has that helps pile up the assists. All that to say Kia is just as good a passer which will be an asset for both of them.
Good news is they are both hard working, fearless, unselfish and intelligent players so I think it will not take long for them to make a positive impact.
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Again I completely disagree, all the players switch on defense at Uconn, who guards who is not an issue unless Geno decides that there is a player on the other team that needs special attention when he goes to Williams or Nurse. Yes Williams and Collier usually play closer to the basket as both Nurse and KLS are playing guards spots because of their skills. KLS has shown she can easily post but she has skills that the other players don't on the perimeter that opens the floor for them. When KLS posts the question is who passes the ball, the only other good post passer is Williams, so you see Collier benefits from the skills of both Williams and KLS along with Nurse on the perimeter and Chong, not the other way around. Collier is open as she is the third or fourth option of the defense or you are saying every coach that Uconn has played against is an idiot
Again I completely disagree, all the players switch on defense at Uconn, who guards who is not an issue unless Geno decides that there is a player on the other team that needs special attention when he goes to Williams or Nurse. Yes Williams and Collier usually play closer to the basket as both Nurse and KLS are playing guards spots because of their skills. KLS has shown she can easily post but she has skills that the other players don't on the perimeter that opens the floor for them. When KLS posts the question is who passes the ball, the only other good post passer is Williams, so you see Collier benefits from the skills of both Williams and KLS along with Nurse on the perimeter and Chong, not the other way around. Collier is open as she is the third or fourth option of the defense or you are saying every coach that Uconn has played against is an idiot
I think both JudgeSCR and hugefan have great points are mostly agreeing but with different perspectives. Judge is right regarding a big part of her being open is everything she does before getting the ball. Hugefan is right that a big portion is the offense, quick ball movement and KLS (and Kia) on the perimeter that does not allow double teaming or even enough time for a help defender. Also, since Gabby is not a traditional big hanging down low but usually spends the majority of her time in the high post Gabby does help open up spacing. As both her shot becomes more consistent and she takes it more often then it will just open things up more. However, if you look at the Maryland game, many teams are willing to give her an open look as they do not think she will hit it consistently. SMU game she did not take many nor made any outside shots (if she hit one I apologize to those that like to harp on an exact specific and miss the greater point.)
However, there is no denying Pheese is a better offensive player. Just list the amount of ways that Pheese can score (effectively) vs the amount of ways Gabby can score. Rebounding is a wash. Give Gabby credit for assists as it contributes to the offense. Add the other variables to evaluate that Judge highlights and they all favor Pheese. I think its safe to say that Pheese is a better offensive player both with the stats and the eye test. Plus if you want to give Gabby credit for assist then you need to add in that she has twice as many turnovers than Pheese, and in fact leads the team which hurts the offense.
## Player GP-GS Min--Avg FG-FGA Pct 3FG-FGA Pct FT-FTA Pct Off Def Tot Avg PF FO A TO Blk Stl Pts Avg
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24 Collier, Napheesa.. 16-16 491 30.7 127-195 .651 7-17 .412 47-59 .797 40 88 128 8.0 34 2 32 21 28 33 308 19.3
15 Williams, Gabby.... 16-16 449 28.1 81-151 .536 1-4 .250 28-40 .700 42 92 134 8.4 31 0 78 43 20 46 191 11.9
Since Geno is the best coach he builds balanced teams with players that compliment each other but do most things well. So yes Lou can shoot lights out but Kia and Soniya can shoot really well. Yes Gabby can score on bigs, but so can Pheese and Lou is not asked to because it would clog things up. Gabby can pass better and Pheese can shoot better. Kia is good on defense and KLS beats her in steals. Gabby is the best disruptor but Pheese is not far off (if you look at steals/blocks.) Nurse helps lead to keep things settled, but Gabby has stepped up as a leader too. Its trivial because the number one stat is 16 -0 this season and 91 -0 is nice too....LOL
What I take from it all is we are spoiled with talented and highly skilled players that we have nothing better to do than compare who is better on our own team since the rest of the teams do not offer enough concern to discuss them.
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jonson
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Again I completely disagree, all the players switch on defense at Uconn, who guards who is not an issue unless Geno decides that there is a player on the other team that needs special attention when he goes to Williams or Nurse. Yes Williams and Collier usually play closer to the basket as both Nurse and KLS are playing guards spots because of their skills. KLS has shown she can easily post but she has skills that the other players don't on the perimeter that opens the floor for them. When KLS posts the question is who passes the ball, the only other good post passer is Williams, so you see Collier benefits from the skills of both Williams and KLS along with Nurse on the perimeter and Chong, not the other way around. Collier is open as she is the third or fourth option of the defense or you are saying every coach that Uconn has played against is an idiot
So, you are saying that every opposing coach treats the team's second leading scorer (by only a point or so) as the team's "third or fourth" offensive option behind KLS and? I personally find this difficult to believe. I also don't think that this team's offense can be broken down so easily into those who open things up for other players and those who don't. Indeed, if I recall correctly, UConn was -7 against Notre Dame with Collier on the bench and +21 with her on the court, something Geno pointed out in postgame interviews.
But, if you are right about the thinking of the coaches whose teams we have played this year, then, yes, it does seem as if they are not the brightest bulbs in the world.
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You are talking theoretically about what you think might happen. I am talking about what actually happens in the game.Again I completely disagree, all the players switch on defense at Uconn, who guards who is not an issue unless Geno decides that there is a player on the other team that needs special attention when he goes to Williams or Nurse. Yes Williams and Collier usually play closer to the basket as both Nurse and KLS are playing guards spots because of their skills. KLS has shown she can easily post but she has skills that the other players don't on the perimeter that opens the floor for them. When KLS posts the question is who passes the ball, the only other good post passer is Williams, so you see Collier benefits from the skills of both Williams and KLS along with Nurse on the perimeter and Chong, not the other way around. Collier is open as she is the third or fourth option of the defense or you are saying every coach that Uconn has played against is an idiot
1) The reality is that KLS rarely posts up. In fact, in the last three games she only scored 4 baskets when she posted up -- that is she went to the blocks and received a pass (not counting fast breaks or drives) -- yes I chart some of the games. As much as you want to posit that KLS posting up is a significant part of the offense it just isn't yet.
2) Yes, they switch on defense. But their basic defense keeps KLS, Chong and Nurse out of the paint guarding the other teams bigs, except when they go zone, then KLS can be anywhere (as can Gabby and Napheesa). Next game count how many times you see KLS on the other team's center in the blocks (as opposed to at the foul line after a pick). Not much if at all.
3) How in the world is Napheesa the third or fourth option on offense? Your fourth option is your second leading scorer (one point off the leader)? Your third or fourth option has taken the second most shots (by more than 40 over the next player)? Your third or fourth option leads the team in field goal percentage? So if all that is your fourth option you better get options two and three moving. Second, UConn runs, for the most part, a type of read and react offense. Without spending the next three paragraphs breaking it down, it does not have a first option, second option, third option, fourth option, fifth option. They have a bunch of options they look for: a back door, defenders going under the screen, players establishing position under the basket, a curl around a screen, etc. It really depends on the defense, how the offense reads it, who is hot or has a mismatch, etc. After looking for the first option the rest is reading the game and the defense. That is why it is (with movement and good spacing) so hard to defend. The defense doesn't know which "option" the team will follow and neither does the team until the play unfurls. That is why Geno's constant refrain is "figure it out". Because that is what this offense requires.
4) They all make each other better. That is why they are winning. So what is your point? That Napheesa benefits from the play of Williams, KLS, Nurse and Chong? Okay, I agree. Just as they benefit from her.
There is a reason the Kara Lawson keeps bringing up Napheesa as a potential POY candidate and it is certainly not that she is the fourth option. Or if she is the fourth option, she is the best fourth option women's college basketball has ever seen -- a fourth option that, as a sophomore, scores 19 points a game on 65% shooting. In that case, give me a team of fourth options.
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I get it...sorta like one wins the popular vote and the other wins the electoral vote... so that everybody is happy...right?
diggerfoot
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I can understand everyone's point of view on this, considering that all four contribute so much. As far as proving one's point, a rationale has to be both reliable and valid. Reliability is the easy part, provide the statistics that support your criteria. But which criteria is more valid? What makes validity even more difficult to pin down are "intangibles" that seemingly are elusive of reliable measures.
I offer no resolution to this for which three are the best AA candidates or even the best players for the team. However, there is one reliable statistic that incorporates both tangibles and intangibles, minutes played. While not an indicator of "best," it is at least a reliable and valid indicator of "most valuable" to what the team needs to accomplish in the eyes of the coaching staff. I say this without knowing what that statistic is for each player, nor am I too concerned about the result. I'll cop out and say all four are somewhat equally deserving as AA candidates. However, I do think that statistic will refute at least a few of the more dogmatic arguments I've seen in this thread ... not that it will change any minds.
I offer no resolution to this for which three are the best AA candidates or even the best players for the team. However, there is one reliable statistic that incorporates both tangibles and intangibles, minutes played. While not an indicator of "best," it is at least a reliable and valid indicator of "most valuable" to what the team needs to accomplish in the eyes of the coaching staff. I say this without knowing what that statistic is for each player, nor am I too concerned about the result. I'll cop out and say all four are somewhat equally deserving as AA candidates. However, I do think that statistic will refute at least a few of the more dogmatic arguments I've seen in this thread ... not that it will change any minds.
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Hmmmm. At least the one who wins the electoral vote is happy.
CocoHusky
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@diggerfoot thanks for checking in. Interesting though using minutes play as a tangible discriminator among the UCONN's 4 AA candidates
The numbers look like this:
Samuelson, 603 Mins
Collier 560 Mins
Nurse 623 Mins
Williams 538 Mins
I have two contradictory, perhaps conflicting thoughts. The first thought is that Gabby and Napheesa have fewer minutes because of foul trouble battling in the post. The conflict is, do I reward Gabby & Napheesa for battling in post or do I punish them for not doing a better job of avoiding fouls which would have resulted in more minutes on the floor? The ND game is the best freshest example ND did not get a pulse until Napheesa had to sit.