Pete Rose, 'Shoeless' Joe Jackson among players reinstated by MLB

[uh-no]

Piazza is in the HOF, so put the rest of the steroid users in. I'm convinced Nolan Ryan was a late career user, he looked washed up in 86 and was throwing no hitters in 94.

Yeah the posturing by the voters is kinda baffling here. Guys were using long before it blew up in the late 90's. Piazza was pretty obviously a user based on his numbers, physique...and visage...

So grandstanding a couple specific players like Bonds and Clemens is kind of stupid.

 

[NC_Uconn_Fan]

If you bet on baseball, you should be banned. Jackson, while he played well, still took the money. Steroid users are not banned, just not going to get votes for now. Just because baseball reinstated Pete, Jackson and the rest, doesn't mean they will get the required votes.

 

[Methalius]

I believe Rose and Jackson will get into the HoF and I believe they should be in there. I think if and when they are voted in, there should be a footnote on their plaques stating that they were banned from baseball due to betting etc.

The case of all of the PED users for me, it is simple. Yes, PED's don't make you hit a ball. Your hand, eye coordination does that but it turned guys who were already good players to borderline Hall of Famers and it turned guys who were already Hall of Famers into Gods. Bonds was a great player before he started using PED's but PED's turned him from a great player into an Immortal. If you don't think PED's helped Bonds ask yourself this question then. "Why did he use them?" If they didn't help him or helped him minimally why bother with them? McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, etc. destroyed the one thing that gave baseball it's one thing that MLB had over the NFL and the NBA. They destroyed their record books. Now one could argue that due to segregation, that destroyed the history books in and of itself. That players like Josh Gibson would have changed the game. That is a different conversation to me.

BTW, for those who casually state that "everyone knew" that McGwire and Sosa and Bonds were using PED's that is just patently false. That is revisionist history. I was in my late 20's during the 1998 season and I remember distinctly there was 1 voice who dared to claim Steroids or PEDs. That was Bob Costas and he was told that he was being cynical by the majority of sports writers at the time. No one wanted to hear it and no one wanted it to be true.

 

[Patman]

Makes me wonder how many Jimmie Foxx or Mantle or Ruth would’ve had, had they had them back in those days. Foxx had arguably the single greatest season in MLB history in 1932…58hr….169rbi…..364avg……213hits….1.218ops

Ruth and mantle would be good arguments as it would have countered all their late night behaviors... but for all we know that might have made them go harder into the alcohol

 

[navery12]

BTW, for those who casually state that "everyone knew" that McGwire and Sosa and Bonds were using PED's that is just patently false. That is revisionist history. I was in my late 20's during the 1998 season and I remember distinctly there was 1 voice who dared to claim Steroids or PEDs. That was Bob Costas and he was told that he was being cynical by the majority of sports writers at the time. No one wanted to hear it and no one wanted it to be true.

When people say "everyone knew" they're referring to MLB leadership. For example, MLB commissioner and Hall of Fame inductee Bud Selig, who encouraged it because he knew they needed that to save baseball

 

[NJHoops]

I’m sure there are other rapists in the Hall of Fame, doesn’t mean they need to knowingly allow another in.

 

[Windham4th]

Barry Bonds had an OPS of .610 one year, steroids alone doesnt do that. The pitchers were on roids too. He deserves to be a hall of famer.

When you get walked a billion times because pitchers don’t want to let you hit with your roided muscles, it most definitely affects OPS

 

[Deepster]

Piazza is in the HOF, so put the rest of the steroid users in. I'm convinced Nolan Ryan was a late career user, he looked washed up in 86 and was throwing no hitters in 94.

Wow. Absolutely disagree with you on both of those guys. Especially Ryan. He threw 325+ innings in 2 seasons early in his career. He threw 235 pitches in one game once. He threw a 70+ mph first pitch at 63 years old in a dress shirt and dress shoes.

 

[Beowulf]

I'm OK with Rose being reinstated, but this is a ridiculous statement, unless you're talking about off-the-field conduct exclusively.

The problem with Rose is that his sins weren't really committed "off the field." As the Reds manager, he bet on Reds games dozens of times. And while he bet on the Reds, it's an open question as to whether he made certain decisions to win a game he bet on at the expense of the following game. His denials, defenses, and excuses were constantly evolving.

None of that affects what he did on the field as a player, though, and ultimately I'm OK with this.

Maybe I drank the Kool Aid, but I've always thought Shoeless Joe was railroaded. His WS performance speaks for itself.

Bucky - this one's for you!

uhhhh he for sure had some pretty clear cut off the field sins as well

 

[dennismenace]

Makes me wonder how many Jimmie Foxx or Mantle or Ruth would’ve had, had they had them back in those days. Foxx had arguably the single greatest season in MLB history in 1932…58hr….169rbi…..364avg……213hits….1.218ops

This reminds me of how "unfair" comparative parks/statistics are/were. Tony Kubek in his latter career as an announcer once remarked that if Mantle had played in a different park than the "1927 House that built" version of Yankee stadium he would have hit 1000 career homeruns. When I heard that I'm like "What?" And then he went on to explain the vast dimensions of the stadium in Left 407, Left Center 455, Center 461 and right center 407.
He went on to explain how many moonshots Mantle hit that were just long flyball outs or doubles or triples. Half of games played at home and he was not a pull hitter for the most part.

 

[dennismenace]

Wow. Absolutely disagree with you on both of those guys. Especially Ryan. He threw 325+ innings in 2 seasons early in his career. He threw 235 pitches in one game once. He threw a 70+ mph first pitch at 63 years old in a dress shirt and dress shoes.

Ryan was an absolute freak. In his earlier career he routinely struck out 12-14 a game and walked 10-12 it seemed whenever you looked up the box score. Pitch counts would have been unbelievable. Back then he must have been terrifying. Players and umps said you could hardly see the ball. Great nickname: "The Express". Don't think he juiced. He got better with age and had great control. He was still so good that he did not believe in "wasting" pitches so with two strikes he would just go for the K.

 

[Deepster]

uhhhh he for sure had some pretty clear cut off the field sins as well

I don't think we want to open that Pandora's Box. Mickey Mantle wouldn't be able to enter the Cooperstown city limits.

 

[Deepster]

Ryan was an absolute freak. In his earlier career he routinely struck out 12-14 a game and walked 10-12 it seemed whenever you looked up the box score. Pitch counts would have been unbelievable. Back then he must have been terrifying. Players and umps said you could hardly see the ball. Great nickname: "The Express". Don't think he juiced. He got better with age and had great control. He was still so good that he did not believe in "wasting" pitches so with two strikes he would just go for the K.

He was a big proponent years ago for MORE throwing on off days and less babying of starter's arms. Felt the coddling was making them weaker and more susceptible to injury. The math guys eventually pushed him into the dark on that, but I'm not sure he was 100% off the mark.

 

[Tenspro2002]

I really don’t care one way or another, but why wait until the guy is dead?

Feels a little cowardly.

I don't necessarily agree with this argument, but the argument seems to be:

Preventing HOF induction during their lifetime is punishment for the guilty party. Once he's dead, there's no point in continuing the punishment and writers/fans should get their say.

 

[nomar]

uhhhh he for sure had some pretty clear cut off the field sins as well

Yeah, I deleted a line I wrote about his character because (a) people are weirdly protective of Rose and (b) my point was that strictly off-field behavior is, to me, not really relevant.

 

[nomar]

I don't necessarily agree with this argument, but the argument seems to be:

Preventing HOF induction during their lifetime is punishment for the guilty party. Once he's dead, there's no point in continuing the punishment and writers/fans should get their say.

Yeah, I think that's it. And I think the fact that people called it a lifetime ban when, technically, he was "permanently ineligible," reflects the widespread recognition that Rose's eligibility was likely to be restored at some point in the future after his death.

Fishy called it cowardly but I'd call it extraordinarily punitive. (Note I didn't say "excessively".)

 

[Patman]

Yeah, I deleted a line I wrote about his character because (a) people are weirdly protective of Rose and (b) my point was that strictly off-field behavior is, to me, not really relevant.

People protect rose because they're protecting their own degenerate side of themselves. Same with the roid users.

 

[Devland]

Don't follow baseball but the Football and basketball hall of fames have way too many people in them. If they were true hall of fames they would only contain generational players. There wouldn't be multiple people admitted every year. There would be years when no one was admitted.

 

[boog204]

Yeah, I deleted a line I wrote about his character because (a) people are weirdly protective of Rose and (b) my point was that strictly off-field behavior is, to me, not really relevant.

Yes, the Rose protection over the years has been bizarre - as has his continual overratedness, IMO, as the HOF BS persisted. He is obviously a HOF'er. But there have been many people who claim he's a top 10-20 player all-time, and hitting a ton of singles does not put you in that category. Baseball Reference has his war as the 66th highest all time, around guys like Robin Yount and Molitor, with Rose having 3000 additional plate appearances.

 

[nomar]

Yes, the Rose protection over the years has been bizarre - as has his continual overratedness, IMO, as the HOF BS persisted. He is obviously a HOF'er. But there have been many people who claim he's a top 10-20 player all-time, and hitting a ton of singles does not put you in that category. Baseball Reference has his war as the 66th highest all time, around guys like Robin Yount and Molitor, with Rose having 3000 additional plate appearances.

No doubt he's a compiler but what a compiler he was. Definitely nowhere close to the top 50 players of all time.

 

[Waquoit]

I think all of the deserving PED guys need to be let in tomorrow. PED's were tacitly allowed during the period in question, the sudden 360 and retroactive enforcement by MLB was really rotten; befitting a man like Bud Selig. A used-car salesman. What's the reason for excluding these players? Cheating? Then why is Gaylord Perry in the HoF. He was the most successful cheater in the history of the game. He would have been absolutely nothing without cheating. He was caught several times and he admitted it. What more do you need? Why does he deserve the ultimate reward and not a superior pitcher like Clemens?

 

[cullaville]

Don't follow baseball but the Football and basketball hall of fames have way too many people in them. If they were true hall of fames they would only contain generational players. There wouldn't be multiple people admitted every year. There would be years when no one was admitted.

The baseball Hall of Fame is becoming (or already is) the Hall of Very Good and/or I played a long time so I have a lot of hits, home runs, rbi etc..

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

What justifies this thread having been posted in the Men's Basketball Forum (not even with "OT: " prefix in its Title), and without it having been moved already to the Pro Sports forum within the Non- UConn Sports area of The Boneyard?

 

[uconnblueinky]

Let everybody take as many steroids as they possibly can and let everybody into the hall of fame!! I want these guys so juiced up that they have to walk through doorways sideways . I want pitchers throwing 110 mph curveballs and batters hitting 800 foot dingers !!

 

[CONN78SEJ]

Ruth and mantle would be good arguments as it would have countered all their late night behaviors... but for all we know that might have made them go harder into the alcohol

Foxx claimed in an interview many years later that he hit 66 home runs in 1932. Unfortunately for him, back in those days any stats that you accrued in a game that was called because of rain, your stats were not officially recorded.

 

[boog204]

The baseball Hall of Fame is becoming (or already is) the Hall of Very Good and/or I played a long time so I have a lot of hits, home runs, rbi etc..

Conceptually, the HOF process, regardless of sport, is kind of weird. How is a guy not a hall of famer one year, but then is many years later? I mean, Michael Cooper? He retired in 1990, and not one person thought he was a Hall of Famer. 24 years later, he is? Great defender. Key piece on a legendary team. But really? I feel like the NFL is the only one that sort of does it right.

Or in the case of some, how are some not even remotely hall of famers, and then, because of connections and friends, after falling off the ballot, now in. Love Phil Rizzuto. His voice was part of my childhood watching PIX and everything else. But there is no way in hell that his career warranted the HOF as a player.

 

[navery12]

I think all of the deserving PED guys need to be let in tomorrow. PED's were tacitly allowed during the period in question, the sudden 360 and retroactive enforcement by MLB was really rotten; befitting a man like Bud Selig. A used-car salesman. What's the reason for excluding these players? Cheating? Then why is Gaylord Perry in the HoF. He was the most successful cheater in the history of the game. He would have been absolutely nothing without cheating. He was caught several times and he admitted it. What more do you need? Why does he deserve the ultimate reward and not a superior pitcher like Clemens?

And it's a slippery slope, players in the 70s and 80s used greenies openly in the clubhouse and now they're banned. Why are those guys allowed in?

 

[cullaville]

Conceptually, the HOF process, regardless of sport, is kind of weird. How is a guy not a hall of famer one year, but then is many years later? I mean, Michael Cooper? He retired in 1990, and not one person thought he was a Hall of Famer. 24 years later, he is? Great defender. Key piece on a legendary team. But really? I feel like the NFL is the only one that sort of does it right.

Or in the case of some, how are some not even remotely hall of famers, and then, because of connections and friends, after falling off the ballot, now in. Love Phil Rizzuto. His voice was part of my childhood watching PIX and everything else. But there is no way in hell that his career warranted the HOF as a player.

Agreed - it is not like the player got better after he retired.

Phil Rizutto - great guy, good ball player - not Hall of Fame,

Ten years on the ballot and if not voted in that's it There are too many ways to get elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame after not making it.

The baseball Hall of Fame needs to be for the truly GREAT, ELITE ball players.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Bottom line to me is the HOF is a museum, yes some symbolic meaning but that continues to erode with various admissions, baseball stats are nowhere near as meaningful any more and various other subjective issues. Lifetime ban eligible after death seems more than enough punishment for gambling (which is now way more popular/acceptable). Sure there's an element of generating stories, publicity and interest but that's kind of the purpose of the sport, the museum and/or baseball governance - increase interest in baseball.

If nothing else the new debate over posthumous HOF eligibility is more interesting than the tired debate over the Pete Rose ban that had persisted since the 80's!

 

[cwh20]

I really don’t care one way or another, but why wait until the guy is dead?

Feels a little cowardly.

I felt right after he retired that Rose shouldn’t get in while alive but definitely after death. He was too good to keep out of Cooperstown. He bet on baseball which was bad but bigger than that he kept lying about it. He would have made a ton more money if elected into the Hall while alive from sports memorabilia and such and I feel that loss of revenue should cover his debt to baseball. He was great and always gave the game his all on the field which I admire. He certainly gets in based on his career. I agree with the caveat that if elected that the betting on baseball should be included on his plaque.