Pete Carroll

[Husky25]

That would've been the worst call in the history of football if they threw a flag on the INT. The defender beat the WR to the spot and made a play on the ball. That was textbook defense. It's taught that way.

Husky25, I don't think that it matters that it was within 5 yards of the LOS.

I don't want to say you are right (about the 5 yard thing) because I could find anything to the contrary, but I will agree with you on your post.

Actions that do not constitute pass interference include but are not limited to:

(a) Incidental contact by a defender’s hands, arms, or body when both players are competing for the ball, or neither player is looking for the ball. If there is any question whether contact is incidental, the ruling shall be no interference.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

I don't want to say you are right (about the 5 yard thing) because I could find anything to the contrary, but I will agree with you on your post.

Actions that do not constitute pass interference include but are not limited to:

(a) Incidental contact by a defender’s hands, arms, or body when both players are competing for the ball, or neither player is looking for the ball. If there is any question whether contact is incidental, the ruling shall be no interference.

I think this point more accurately reflects the INT:

(e) Contact by a defender who has gained position on a receiver in an attempt to catch the ball.

As for the 5 yards:

Note 4: There can be no pass interference at or behind the line of scrimmage, but defensive actions such as tackling a receiver can still result in a 5-yard penalty for defensive holding, if accepted.

 

[Husky25]

Butler got lucky on terrible read and throw by a short QB. My guess is that Wilson didn't even see Butler pre snap, because he threw the ball like he didn't see him. He led with the throw. If he throws accurately low and back hip, it's a catchable with the coverage and a TD if caught, with the DB draped all over him - and still a questionable flag. The ball placement is what made the INT possible - the contact is questionable and judgement call.

As for the play call itself - what I wrote before stands. It's only a dumb call, because it didn't work.

The Patriots had 3 Cornerbacks (Revis, Browner, and Butler), 3 linebackers, and 4 linemen on the field to match the Seahawks' personnel. It's a goal line defense geared for the pass. It was a dumb call because it was a dumb call. Being poorly executed doesn't mean it was any more or less a dumb call.

 

[Husky25]

I think this point more accurately reflects the INT:

(e) Contact by a defender who has gained position on a receiver in an attempt to catch the ball.

As for the 5 yards:

Note 4: There can be no pass interference at or behind the line of scrimmage, but defensive actions such as tackling a receiver can still result in a 5-yard penalty for defensive holding, if accepted.

Glad you didn't let anyone drive you away from the Boneyard. That said, I do not admit I am wrong.

 

[PUPPY4]

You're saying the INT was pass interference? The DB jumped the route and has as much right to the ball as the WR. That was textbook defense in my opinion. Not close to a flag.

That was the discussion had, and it's right on the border.
I think a flag should have been thrown, I see the defender knock the receiver down and catch the ball.

 

[PUPPY4]

You're saying the INT was pass interference? The DB jumped the route and has as much right to the ball as the WR. That was textbook defense in my opinion. Not close to a flag.

That was the discussion had, and it's right on the border.
I think a flag should have been thrown, I see the defender knock the receiver down and catch the ball.

 

[Carl Spackler]

The Patriots had 3 Cornerbacks (Revis, Browner, and Butler), 3 linebackers, and 4 linemen on the field to match the Seahawks' personnel. It's a goal line defense geared for the pass. It was a dumb call because it was a dumb call. Being poorly executed doesn't mean it was any more or less a dumb call.

LOL. That play call was probably made well before the New England defense assembled on the field for that play, and I don't remember without looking if they had the same personnel on the field play prior. The patriots are nothing if not well prepared, and they knew Seattle's goal line tendencies, and your point, just makes my opinion that Wilson screwed this up more than anything. If it was as obvious as you say, the QB should have recognized it, and either checked out of it, or called a TO.

No - I will not ever waiver on this. Play calling is important, but it's overrated I think. It's a bad play call, only because it didn't work. Teaching players how to the play game is more important than making play calls. Success on the field, always comes down to players making the plays, Randy Edsall execution of technique and positioning and physical performance is always the best. The mental part of it comes before in preparation. This INT is on Wilson IMO. Terrible, terrible. Throw the ball where only your guy can get it, or throw it out the back of the endzone over one of your guys heads. Especially if you recognize the D is set up for it.

The art of play calling can change momentum, and capitalize on things in your game plan, and has to do with play caller's skill and ability to recognize trends as their happening real time, and think ahead. playing chess. Predicting and an all moves and making your own moves within your designed game plan. We've lacked this at UCONN for a long time. I hope that Diaco brings somebody good in, that can do it, and develop and prepare an entire offensive unit to have good offensive game plans, and run them. It all starts at the offensive line.

 

[Husky25]

LOL. That play call was probably made well before the New England defense assembled on the field for that play, and I don't remember without looking if they had the same personnel on the field play prior. The patriots are nothing if not well prepared, and they knew Seattle's goal line tendencies, and your point, just makes my opinion that Wilson screwed this up more than anything. If it was as obvious as you say, the QB should have recognized it, and either checked out of it, or called a TO.

No - I will not ever waiver on this. Play calling is important, but it's overrated I think. It's a bad play call, only because it didn't work. Teaching players how to the play game is more important than making play calls. Success on the field, always comes down to players making the plays, Randy Edsall execution of technique and positioning and physical performance is always the best. The mental part of it comes before in preparation. This INT is on Wilson IMO. Terrible, terrible. Throw the ball where only your guy can get it, or throw it out the back of the endzone over one of your guys heads. Especially if you recognize the D is set up for it.

The art of play calling can change momentum, and capitalize on things in your game plan, and has to do with play caller's skill and ability to recognize trends as their happening real time, and think ahead. playing chess. Predicting and an all moves and making your own moves within your designed game plan. We've lacked this at UCONN for a long time. I hope that Diaco brings somebody good in, that can do it, and develop and prepare an entire offensive unit to have good offensive game plans, and run them. It all starts at the offensive line.

All due respect, Carl, but I feel you are all over the place here. The INT is absolutely on Wilson. I doubt that either Carroll or Bevell told Wilson to throw a pick on the goal line, down 4 with 0:25 left in the Super Bowl. . The play was executed poorly.

Be that as it may, the call was colossally dumb too. Don't confuse this call with the "gutsy" Saints' onside kick. They had time to overcome any potential negative impact. I think the Seahawks were expecting the Patriots to call timeout and stop the clock for them. The Patriots did not and the Seahawks called the pass. The play was obviously supposed to result in a TD, but in would stop the clock a preserve their own TO in the event it fell incomplete.

Be THAT as it may, you don't call a pass play on the 1/2 yard line when the Patriots had already demonstrated they could not contain Beast Mode.

 

[Carl Spackler]

All due respect, Carl, but I feel you are all over the place here. The INT is absolutely on Wilson. I doubt that either Carroll or Bevell told Wilson to throw a pick on the goal line, down 4 with 0:25 left in the Super Bowl. . The play was executed poorly.

Be that as it may, the call was colossally dumb too. Don't confuse this call with the "gutsy" Saints' onside kick. They had time to overcome any potential negative impact. I think the Seahawks were expecting the Patriots to call timeout and stop the clock for them. The Patriots did not and the Seahawks called the pass. The play was obviously supposed to result in a TD, but in would stop the clock a preserve their own TO in the event it fell incomplete.

Be THAT as it may, you don't call a pass play on the 1/2 yard line when the Patriots had already demonstrated they could not contain Beast Mode.

I am all over the place. Tried to condense some big thoughts into a little paragraph. Doesn't work well for me.

Bottom line is that play calling itself IMNSHO is overrated. The great play callers, are great chess players, because they can see the entire field and 22 moving parts and put all the possibilities together and see things moving ahead in their minds. What made this play call seem so important was the game clock, not the situation on the field. The reality is that it was a bad play call, only because it didn't work. There are no such thing as bad play calls that work out.

If Cris Collinsworth doesn't blab over and over to billions of people that he thinks it's a bad call, it's also not so important. It was just bad, bad all around play by the QB Wilson, and a great play by the DB. I still think the guy came up to the LOS and didn't even see Butler. He threw that ball like he thought his receiver was going to be alone on the slant.

Great players make great plays. (plural) Wilson has made many great plays, Butler hasn't. It was the situation that magnifies it.

Just think about it. Imagine they come out with a power run formation, and NE calls TO and matches up, and they run it anyway and it gets stopped? Terrible play call.

It was a pass play against a pass defense, and the DB made the better play than the QB. Period. QB should have checked out or called TO, or a coach called TO - if you have a problem with the situation matchups. Otherwise it's run the play and the best players win.

Football at it's best IMO.

 

[StoweD210]

TWEEET!!! pass interference def!!
Why didn't the ref under the goal post throw his flag?
Clearly the def made contact with the receiver before touching the ball.
Seeing the receivers feet leave the ground should have drawn the flag, or was it the greatest flop ever!
Isn't knocking a receiver off his route/running through a receiver, or making contact before the ball arrives a penalty?
If a flag was thrown the officials could have been able to talk it over, look at the tape and get it right.

I've been waiting for someone to make this claim.

I was looking for a laugh and you provided it, so Thank You.

 

[Husky25]

I am all over the place. Tried to condense some big thoughts into a little paragraph. Doesn't work well for me.

Bottom line is that play calling itself IMNSHO is overrated. The great play callers, are great chess players, because they can see the entire field and 22 moving parts and put all the possibilities together and see things moving ahead in their minds. What made this play call seem so important was the game clock, not the situation on the field. The reality is that it was a bad play call, only because it didn't work. There are no such thing as bad play calls that work out.

If Cris Collinsworth doesn't blab over and over to billions of people that he thinks it's a bad call, it's also not so important. It was just bad, bad all around play by the QB Wilson, and a great play by the DB. I still think the guy came up to the LOS and didn't even see Butler. He threw that ball like he thought his receiver was going to be alone on the slant.

Great players make great plays. (plural) Wilson has made many great plays, Butler hasn't. It was the situation that magnifies it.

Just think about it. Imagine they come out with a power run formation, and NE calls TO and matches up, and they run it anyway and it gets stopped? Terrible play call.

It was a pass play against a pass defense, and the DB made the better play than the QB. Period. QB should have checked out or called TO, or a coach called TO - if you have a problem with the situation matchups. Otherwise it's run the play and the best players win.

Football at it's best IMO.

One thing is for sure, Collinsworth was insufferable. I know he played for in Cinci, but he was such a Seahawks homer. I missed the first quarter (stuck on an airplane delayed two hours from Detroit in the middle of their own Winter Weather Warning.), but between my phone and my house, I saw the rest of the game thanks to Verizon and NFL Mobile. Good Lord was he being blowhardy...

 

[superjohn]

I am all over the place. Tried to condense some big thoughts into a little paragraph. Doesn't work well for me.

Bottom line is that play calling itself IMNSHO is overrated. The great play callers, are great chess players, because they can see the entire field and 22 moving parts and put all the possibilities together and see things moving ahead in their minds. What made this play call seem so important was the game clock, not the situation on the field. The reality is that it was a bad play call, only because it didn't work. There are no such thing as bad play calls that work out.

If Cris Collinsworth doesn't blab over and over to billions of people that he thinks it's a bad call, it's also not so important. It was just bad, bad all around play by the QB Wilson, and a great play by the DB. I still think the guy came up to the LOS and didn't even see Butler. He threw that ball like he thought his receiver was going to be alone on the slant.

Great players make great plays. (plural) Wilson has made many great plays, Butler hasn't. It was the situation that magnifies it.

Just think about it. Imagine they come out with a power run formation, and NE calls TO and matches up, and they run it anyway and it gets stopped? Terrible play call.

It was a pass play against a pass defense, and the DB made the better play than the QB. Period. QB should have checked out or called TO, or a coach called TO - if you have a problem with the situation matchups. Otherwise it's run the play and the best players win.

Football at it's best IMO.

Cris Collinsworth? I didn't hear what he said and neither did the 30 people I watched the game with. Everyone's jaw dropped to the floor and everyone was asking did he really just call that play? Even girls who have no clue about football were saying why the heck didn't he give it to Marshawn. Sometimes there is a case where people try and play Monday morning quarterback and over analyze things but this is not one of them. Everyone knew the play call was dumber than dirt right when it happened and everyone will always think it's dumber than dirt. Of all the plays you could run on the goal line he picked the one that made the least sense.

 

[PUPPY4]

I've been waiting for someone to make this claim.

I was looking for a laugh and you provided it, so Thank You.

Giddy Pats Fan?, and you believed Brady and Beli-cheat about the balls too?

 

[Eskapeesto]

 

[Carl Spackler]

Cris Collinsworth? I didn't hear what he said and neither did the 30 people I watched the game with. Everyone's jaw dropped to the floor and everyone was asking did he really just call that play? Even girls who have no clue about football were saying why the heck didn't he give it to Marshawn. Sometimes there is a case where people try and play Monday morning quarterback and over analyze things but this is not one of them. Everyone knew the play call was dumber than dirt right when it happened and everyone will always think it's dumber than dirt. Of all the plays you could run on the goal line he picked the one that made the least sense.

You think any number of opinions of bar room drunks and girls is going to change my view on it? LOLOLOLOL.

It's only a bad call because it failed. QB made a very bad play. The DB made a great play. Nothing else was wrong about it. The magnitude of the game, and the game clock, and the scoreboard is what makes it so sensational, and fans reaction is different than real football.

Had it been a 2nd a short at midfield in the first quarter of a preseason game, and the same scenario played out, it would be no different. Seattle bread and butter pass play against New England pass defense. When all else is done right, it comes down to players making plays.

 

[Husky25]

You think any number of opinions of bar room drunks and girls is going to change my view on it? LOLOLOLOL.

It's only a bad call because it failed. QB made a very bad play. The DB made a great play. Nothing else was wrong about it. The magnitude of the game, and the game clock, and the scoreboard is what makes it so sensational, and fans reaction is different than real football.

Had it been a 2nd a short at midfield in the first quarter of a preseason game, and the same scenario played out, it would be no different. Seattle bread and butter pass play against New England pass defense. When all else is done right, it comes down to players making plays.

You just changed all the variables of the play. A slant vs. a cover 2 with 50 yards of space behind a typical safety (player with a number between 20 & 49) is completely different than a slant on the 1 yard line with a guy wearing a number in the 50's playing the safety position.

I agree that a pass may not have been the worst call in the world and the execution was absolutely pi$$ poor, but that play call was horrible. Run a fade. Run a bootleg, Send Lynch into the flat. Any of those would have been acceptable, IMO, but Wilson had one option on that play. Butler recognized the formation and jumped it. It was a great defensive play on a terrible play call, which was poorly executed.

Alas, you know my opinion and I know yours so let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

[Carl Spackler]

FWIW: Rhetorical question.

Seattle possession. New England 11 yard line. :06 seconds on the clock left in the period. Pass play called.

Seattle possession. New England 1 yard line. :26 seconds on the clock left in the period. Pass play called.

Which was the terrible call, and which was the good call?

 

[Husky25]

FWIW: Rhetorical question.

Seattle possession. New England 11 yard line. :06 seconds on the clock left in the period. Pass play called.

Seattle possession. New England 1 yard line. :26 seconds on the clock left in the period. Pass play called.

Which was the terrible call, and which was the good call?

That's a straw man argument...

Rhetorical question: Does Seattle only have one pass play in their play book?

Besides that, the situations are not even remotely comparable. Point in time of game, position on field, defensive personnel, and defensive alignment are all huge variables.

Half time play: 5 players ran a route.
EOG Play: 1 Player ran a route.

Half time play: a full 30 minutes of game time remained to make up the point differential
EOG play: 20 seconds remain.

Half time play: the back 7 have to cover a 21 x 53 yard area necessitating typical defensive backs.
EOG play: The "back 7" have to cover an 11 x 53 yard area. The safety position can be filled by a linebacker, who in general packs a bigger punch in case he's need for run support.

Halftime Play: The Seahawks were coming off a timeout.
EOG play: The clock was running because the Seattle wasted a TO after the Kearse catch. They were expecting the Patriots to stop the clock and they didn't.

Halftime Play: Logan Ryan was playing off the receiver
EOG: Malcolm Butler was playing on the LOS.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

How does Carl reconcile his stance on this with the fact that he STILL thinks McEntee throwing against Vandy was the right decision?

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

Giddy Pats Fan?, and you believed Brady and Beli-cheat about the balls too?

I hate the Pats. That didn't resemble anything close to Pass Interference. Not even debatable.

 

[Carl Spackler]

The situations are not even remotely comparable. Point in time of game, position on field, defensive personnel, and defensive alignment are all huge variables.

That's where we disagree, and where my thought processes come from. Seattle didn't need a TD down 14-7 late in the 2nd. The clock was about to run out, 6 seconds enough for 1 play, maybe. They were 11 yards out of the end zone. The high percentage play call there for success on offense in getting points was to kick the field goal. Very high risk play call there, and they executed their offense. In the 2nd half, with the clock running out, and down 28-24, they needed the TD an were 1 yard out. They had :26 seconds left. Plenty of time to run at least 2 plays. They go to what they've done all season long, and call a bread and butter pass play Tyler Phommachanh get one shot at the end zone, and have enough time to run a second play if need be to get a second shot at the endzone. Very low risk play calling. The pass play there was the safe call to give yourself at least 2 opportunities to score.

You don't make play calls thinking your players are going to screw it up. At least ideally you don't. If a play caller is making calls based on lack of faith in their players? That's bad for all involved. Can't have that.

Anyway - it was a low risk play call, that gave Seattle 2 opportunities to put the ball in the endzone to score the go ahead points they needed. Wilson made a terrible play. That's it. That's football.

Line up and play the game.

 

[Carl Spackler]

How does Carl reconcile his stance on this with the fact that he STILL thinks McEntee throwing against Vandy was the right decision?

Yup, and I would do it again, and the next time, the players better get it right.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Husky you're wrong.

On that final play, it was a bread and butter offensive set for seattle. Strong side left, trips right single back set. WR goes in motion R > L and draws coverage with him. At the snap, TE releases off scrimmage for a route, WR in motion goes out on a route, RB releases to the flat on a route, 2 remaining receivers on R do an inside out pick slant route.

5 receivers.

 

[Husky25]

That's where we disagree, and where my thought processes come from. Seattle didn't need a TD down 14-7 late in the 2nd. The clock was about to run out, 6 seconds enough for 1 play, maybe. They were 11 yards out of the end zone. The high percentage play call there for success on offense in getting points was to kick the field goal. Very high risk play call there, and they executed their offense. In the 2nd half, with the clock running out, and down 28-24, they needed the TD an were 1 yard out. They had :26 seconds left. Plenty of time to run at least 2 plays. They go to what they've done all season long, and call a bread and butter pass play Tyler Phommachanh get one shot at the end zone, and have enough time to run a second play if need be to get a second shot at the endzone. Very low risk play calling. The pass play there was the safe call to give yourself at least 2 opportunities to score.

You don't make play calls thinking your players are going to screw it up. At least ideally you don't. If a play caller is making calls based on lack of faith in their players? That's bad for all involved. Can't have that.

Anyway - it was a low risk play call, that gave Seattle 2 opportunities to put the ball in the endzone to score the go ahead points they needed. Wilson made a terrible play. That's it. That's football.

Line up and play the game.

You can't disagree. It's a an undisputed fact that, "Point in time of game, position on field, defensive personnel, and defensive alignment are all huge variables."
The half time play was high risk for sure, but the margin of error was much greater. there was still 30 minutes of game time left. Also, Matthews caught the ball with :02 left. Had the ball fallen incomplete, Seattle would have petitioned the refs to go to instant replay (Only the officials can call for a replay after the 2 min warning) and put a tick or two on the clock so they could kick a field goal.

 

[Carl Spackler]

While this is entertaining, I'll stop for now, and leave with the same thing I've said over and over, and what I believe. A play call is only bad when it doesn't it work. There is no such thing as a bad play call that works. Passing the ball in that situation was a safe call, given the situation. Wilson facked it up.

(edit: The given condition and assumption here is that you've got a sound fundamental football philosophy and approach to playing the game on offense, and your game plans are sound, and you are operating within your game plan designed for your own personnel, having already scouted and prepared for your opponent in detail)

(I write that, because I think, not about the McEntee interception against Vandy, but the unbelievable triple option wishbone formation that Deleone once called late in a game against Buffalo at home.)

Got to be operating within your system, and your game plans that make sense.