Penn State administrators lied to grand jury, failed to report sexual assault

[upstater]

Forgive me if I'm overstepping, but the tone I get from reading you, makes me concerned. You seem a little too excited about what may or may not be found in thsi case, and how it applies to the University, rather than justice being done.

If the tone I get from you, in any way, represents the average penn state follower, that makes me really worried.

I think you need to try to separate yourself, at least try to mentally, from whatever connection you've got to PSU and realize what this is. It's the trial of an accused serial child molester and rapist, that preyed on children with weak family support, through a civil service organization that he himself helped establish, who's mission it was.....was to help children with weak social support systems and used his own status as a public personality to promote itself.

That's what it is. What makes it relevant to the intercollegiate world, is that the institution, that gave the man his public status to build that organization, which he used to find his prey......appears to have had direct knowledge of what was happening, and was actively involved in covering up the activity.

The state university of pennsylvania, and any government officials of the state of PA that are proven to have obstructed the apprehension of Sandusky on a criminal matter, deserve every bit of punishment allowed, from every direction it can come from.

So, from my post, you see that I'm defending Sandusky? I don't see where I wrote anything like that.

The only question is what were the administrators told, and what did they do? We know they didn't do enough, and the emails probably tell that story. Whether there as a conspiracy involving real estate deals or the football program is still up in the air; we may get some confirmation of this shortly.

As for obstructing the state in the apprehension of Sandusky, I don't even think that's a question that the prosecutors are asking or interested in. The only question is one of perjury. The secret emails were recovered from PSU servers, and they are attributed to Schultz. A guy who retired years ago. I don't see how this could be labeled an obstruction since he did not have access to servers. We're not talking about his case files here. This is entirely different. The first time victim #1's allegations were investigated was in March of 2011. That's the date from which any obstruction would have commenced. Schultz gave his case files over at that time and the time that he allegedly committed perjury. But the actual emails are from 2001.

A reason that these emails weren't discovered earlier is that McQueary said the rape happened in 2002, and the prosecution was looking for emails from 2002 when the rape occurred in 2001. Undoubtedly there has been some shoddy investigative work by the AG because only now did it discover the actual possible dates of the rape, and prior to now it didn't seem to note the inconsistencies between the case files and the dates of the rape. It's been less than a few weeks since the new information came to light, and as soon as it was found, the PSU investigators handed over the emails in question. That's why this is all being revealed right now. This info should have come out many many months ago. Over a year ago in fact.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I wrote tone upstater, I think you know what I mean, you've written more than one post on this subject. Again, sorry if I overstep, but I do get concerned that the reality of this situation is going to get clouded by the culture of Penn State University that Joe Paterno built over 6 decades.

It's the trial of an accused serial child molester and rapist, that preyed on children with weak family support, through a civil service organization that he himself helped establish, who's mission it was.....was to help children with weak social support systems and used his own status as a public personality to promote itself.

There's another institution that has had it's representatives, make the same choices and do the same things that apparently the people in position of power in Pennsylvania through the state university and right to the state governor apparently have made as well, it's called the Vatican, and there's a standard out there as to what these kinds of abuse cases are going to cost.

The lawyers.....they're going to need to find a way into the deep money pockets, and in this situation it's the university. So, it's quite understandable that anyone affiliated with the university doesn't want to the school any way labeled as a responsible institution in any of this that has happened. '

My opinion, is that something akin to a death penalty imposed by the NCAA, would actually help Penn State financially if Sandusky is found guilty, and PSU is implicated as a responsible party for the lawyers to go after.

UConn has a similar situation right now with the murder of Jasper that happened on campus. How can a state university be held responsible for something like that? It's unlikely that UConn will be found liable in that terrible tragedy based on the facts and what happened, and how.

But PSU has a different issue, every incident of child sexual abuse that occured after a point in time where Penn STate officials should have known about, especially things that happened on campus - AFTER people already knew about it, I'm no lawyer, but I think that Penn State has a real chance of being the first state university to be held liable for damages in the lawsuits that are sure to come after a gulity verdict, and lawyers always look for the deep pockets.

I'm done on this for today though, there's a reason I"ve been ignoring this situation, it's too heart breaking and emotional, and plain evil.

I have a lot of respect for lawyers and the kind of mental discipline they have to develop to do their jobs right. There is no way I could stand in a courtroom and maintain any kind of detachment that would be necessary, especially in such an extreme case, and I suppose that it's not like it's some kind of varying levels of thought processes you can have when doing the lawyer job, whether it be this Sandusky trial, or defending / prosecuting a speeding ticket.

I'm going out to enjoy some fresh air and sunshine. have a nice weekend everybody, by all accounts, going to be some serious football competition going on inside the Shenkman complex by some high school ballers. Maybe get some more fresh faces for UConn football after.

 

[Adios]

SMU is working their way back up. If they make it to another conference, they'll be set.

 

[SubbaBub]

Carl, you're letting your emotions get the better of you. You don't shut down an entire university or even a football program because of the civil crimes of one person and the cover up actions of a relatively small group. You arrest/fire/or otherwise hold those responsible accountable. If institutional changes need to be made then make them as well.

It may be a single name, Penn State, but its 40,000 students, 2000 faculty, hundreds of staff. Even the FB program consists of a couple hundred students and staff who had nothing to do with this.

Two similar cases for comparison. First,USN tailhook scandal. We didn't shut down the Navy.

Second, the Baylor BB murder. This is the closest example to the PSU case I can think off, with one exception.

Baylor's BB program was directly tied to the murder (player against player) and the Head Coach actively hindered the investigation. Legit NCAA issues there.

Upstater has it right, the two things that allowed this to go on so long were the stature of Sandusky in the area (think Kobe's rape case) and the incredible small towniness of State College, where everyone, including the sitting governor, is connected through charity, political, and business dealings.

Rah-rah State U is way down the list. If the same set of facts had involved the asst swim coach in the natatorium, we wouldn't be talking about shutting down the swim team.


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[Carl Spackler]

Carl, you're letting your emotions get the better of you. You don't shut down an entire university or even a football program because of the civil crimes of one person and the cover up actions of a relatively small group. You arrest/fire/or otherwise hold those responsible accountable. If institutional changes need to be made then make them as well.

It may be a single name, Penn State, but its 40,000 students, 2000 faculty, hundreds of staff. Even the FB program consists of a couple hundred students and staff who had nothing to do with this.

Two similar cases for comparison. First,USN tailhook scandal. We didn't shut down the Navy.

Second, the Baylor BB murder. This is the closest example to the PSU case I can think off, with one exception.

Baylor's BB program was directly tied to the murder (player against player) and the Head Coach actively hindered the investigation. Legit NCAA issues there.

Upstater has it right, the two things that allowed this to go on so long were the stature of Sandusky in the area (think Kobe's rape case) and the incredible small towniness of State College, where everyone, including the sitting governor, is connected through charity, political, and business dealings.

Rah-rah State U is way down the list. If the same set of facts had involved the asst swim coach in the natatorium, we wouldn't be talking about shutting down the swim team.


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seriously, look I"m not condoning any of the conduct of the officers that crossed lines of behavior in Vegas that summer after returning from active combat, and I guarantee that what I'm about to write is going to raise some sexist issues, but....the fella that had the idea to take a bunch of marine corps and naval aviation officers straight from the persian gulf war to Las Vegas in the middle of the summer for a debriefing after returning from tours of active combat that spring - that guy did not exercise good judgement.

You don't take guys that have been in combat and put them in close quarters with females in las vegas for debriefing. You stick those guys in a hangar somewhere with a bunch of beer on ice, and no outside world contact to cool off for awhile.

That situation is so far removed from what happened at Penn State between a pedophile adult and children - in my book.

But I agree, I have let emotion get the better of me about this.

 

[Carl Spackler]

BTW - while it was a much lower frequency/ratio - of all the sexual assault complaints that were investigated after the 35th tailhook convention in vegas, there were males that had filed complaints against drunken female officers too.

 

[upstater]

I wrote tone upstater, I think you know what I mean, you've written more than one post on this subject. Again, sorry if I overstep, but I do get concerned that the reality of this situation is going to get clouded by the culture of Penn State University that Joe Paterno built over 6 decades.

It's the trial of an accused serial child molester and rapist, that preyed on children with weak family support, through a civil service organization that he himself helped establish, who's mission it was.....was to help children with weak social support systems and used his own status as a public personality to promote itself.

There's another institution that has had it's representatives, make the same choices and do the same things that apparently the people in position of power in Pennsylvania through the state university and right to the state governor apparently have made as well, it's called the Vatican, and there's a standard out there as to what these kinds of abuse cases are going to cost.

The lawyers.....they're going to need to find a way into the deep money pockets, and in this situation it's the university. So, it's quite understandable that anyone affiliated with the university doesn't want to the school any way labeled as a responsible institution in any of this that has happened. '

My opinion, is that something akin to a death penalty imposed by the NCAA, would actually help Penn State financially if Sandusky is found guilty, and PSU is implicated as a responsible party for the lawyers to go after.

UConn has a similar situation right now with the murder of Jasper that happened on campus. How can a state university be held responsible for something like that? It's unlikely that UConn will be found liable in that terrible tragedy based on the facts and what happened, and how.

But PSU has a different issue, every incident of child sexual abuse that occured after a point in time where Penn STate officials should have known about, especially things that happened on campus - AFTER people already knew about it, I'm no lawyer, but I think that Penn State has a real chance of being the first state university to be held liable for damages in the lawsuits that are sure to come after a gulity verdict, and lawyers always look for the deep pockets.

I'm done on this for today though, there's a reason I"ve been ignoring this situation, it's too heart breaking and emotional, and plain evil.

I have a lot of respect for lawyers and the kind of mental discipline they have to develop to do their jobs right. There is no way I could stand in a courtroom and maintain any kind of detachment that would be necessary, especially in such an extreme case, and I suppose that it's not like it's some kind of varying levels of thought processes you can have when doing the lawyer job, whether it be this Sandusky trial, or defending / prosecuting a speeding ticket.

I'm going out to enjoy some fresh air and sunshine. have a nice weekend everybody, by all accounts, going to be some serious football competition going on inside the Shenkman complex by some high school ballers. Maybe get some more fresh faces for UConn football after.

For me, you're assuming too much. I want to know what McQueary said. We will know shortly. McQueary has every reason to reconstruct his own reputation. So I'm not hinging everything on his testimony as you are. On the other hand, if he's not impeached, and he may not be, I will agree with you entirely. I'm waiting for Dranov and the others.

For a long while now, I have indeed blamed McQueary. I don't see him as the fall guy.

 

[jdb50]

I still can't get over the High School coach that saw Sandusky and a youth in a clinch lying face to face on a wrestling mat. People couldn't believe their own eyes. McQueary, clearly a subordinate on the Penn State staff went to people further up the power structure chain of command. He had already talked to his father and a doctor about what he saw. He believed his own eyes. From that point what clear thinking person in a supervisory position would think to protect the name brand of the football program which would mean jepordising their lives in a criminal investigation. Remember the janitors story. I think there are alot of people down in Happy Valley that couldn't take on the power of the program and it's hold on the local population. A major penalty from the NCAA is in order when this case is over. It can't just be - Ahem, well that's over now let's go out and have a good season.

 

[upstater]

I still can't get over the High School coach that saw Sandusky and a youth in a clinch lying face to face on a wrestling mat. People couldn't believe their own eyes. McQueary, clearly a subordinate on the Penn State staff went to people further up the power structure chain of command. He had already talked to his father and a doctor about what he saw. He believed his own eyes. From that point what clear thinking person in a supervisory position would think to protect the name brand of the football program which would mean jepordising their lives in a criminal investigation. Remember the janitors story. I think there are alot of people down in Happy Valley that couldn't take on the power of the program and it's hold on the local population. A major penalty from the NCAA is in order when this case is over. It can't just be - Ahem, well that's over now let's go out and have a good season.

I'm with you if indeed he told people what he saw. But, his father and then the doctor testified that he didn't tell them what he saw. And therein lies the question of whether McQueary actually relayed what he saw or whether he is now trying to save his reputation.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I still can't get over the High School coach that saw Sandusky and a youth in a clinch lying face to face on a wrestling mat. People couldn't believe their own eyes. McQueary, clearly a subordinate on the Penn State staff went to people further up the power structure chain of command. He had already talked to his father and a doctor about what he saw. He believed his own eyes. From that point what clear thinking person in a supervisory position would think to protect the name brand of the football program which would mean jepordising their lives in a criminal investigation. Remember the janitors story. I think there are alot of people down in Happy Valley that couldn't take on the power of the program and it's hold on the local population. A major penalty from the NCAA is in order when this case is over. It can't just be - Ahem, well that's over now let's go out and have a good season.

Agreed.

Commissioned officers in the marine corps, and naval air command were court martialed and dishonorably discharged after tailhook, and admirals of the navy were done with their carreers, over stuff that if you ever went to spring weekend parties at carriage house, or further off campus to Woodhaven, or some of those apartment complexes back when the drinking age was 18......again....lines shouldn't be crossed between consent and non-consent, and when they do, punisment is necessary, but adults interacting is different than preying on children sexually.

It will be interesting to see how the NCAA handles this situation once the criminal trial is completed, and the facts of the case are on record.

 

[Johnbuoy]

I'm curious if it really matters at this point what McQueary saw, reported or didn't report, what the administrators and others knew and did or didn't do etc., etc., etc. when it comes to reaching a verdict in this case. Seems to me it's more about the credibility of the accusers that's going to be the deciding factor. The rest is just background noise for now at least.

 

[SubbaBub]

I'm curious if it really matters at this point what McQueary saw, reported or didn't report, what the administrators and others knew and did or didn't do etc., etc., etc. when it comes to reaching a verdict in this case. Seems to me it's more about the credibility of the accusers that's going to be the deciding factor. The rest is just background noise for now at least.

Third party witnesses always help, his testimony probably precluded a defense where the first victim is attacked and the rest are bandwagoners looking for a payday. Not that that would have worked in this case, with so much else out there. Although part of me feels bad for McQueary. He's being judged on what he didn't do vs what he did. Look, he messed up huge, but if he just walked out and said nothing he might be personally better off. Not an incentive I'd like to see perpetuated like the Stop Snitchin' culture.

As a society we need to make it easier for witnesses to come forward, not harder.

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[Jimmy Serrano]

A former Penn St. assistant testified that he and other PSU assistants saw Sandusky bring young boys into the showers all the time. And that none of it seemed inappropriate at all.

I'm just disgusted with this whole case. An elderly man brings young boys into the locker room showers and nobody sees anything even remotely suspicious about that? Good Lord.

 

[Adios]

The testimony against Sandusky is nauseating.

 

[upstater]

I'm curious if it really matters at this point what McQueary saw, reported or didn't report, what the administrators and others knew and did or didn't do etc., etc., etc. when it comes to reaching a verdict in this case. Seems to me it's more about the credibility of the accusers that's going to be the deciding factor. The rest is just background noise for now at least.

Uh, Sandusky is going down. I don't see anyone defending Sandusky. The only conversation is whether the two administrators (and maybe the president) are going to be convicted.

 

[businesslawyer]

Uh, Sandusky is going down.

Now there is an unfortunate choice of words.

 

[SubbaBub]

Now there is an unfortunate choice of words.

Guilt has never really been in doubt., but an academic question for the lawyers, I heard on the radio that only 8 of the 10 victims in the indictment testified. Could the defense possibly wring a reasonable doubt verdict on the charges related to those two victims?

I thought it odd the state would bring the indictment without the victims willing to testify.

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[upstater]

Guilt has never really been in doubt., but an academic question for the lawyers, I heard on the radio that only 8 of the 10 victims in the indictment testified. Could the defense possibly wring a reasonable doubt verdict on the charges related to those two victims?

I thought it odd the state would bring the indictment without the victims willing to testify.

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More than 2 didn't testify.
Victim #2 is the McQueary incident, and to this day, we don't know who that is.
One victim is the one witnessed by the janitor, and we also don't know who that is.
Victim #6, who is the kid from the 1999 case with Gricar, is actually still in contact with Sandusky--as hard as that is to believe given what Sandusky said to his Mom: "I wish I were dead."

 

[ZooCougar]

If Sandusky was a an English Lit. Prof. Then somehow I bet this wouldn't have dragged on this long.

The coaches didn't see anything wrong? How many red flags were there with this guy?