Papi….

[Deepster]

If Ortiz doesn't belong in the hall, neither does Mariano Rivera.

Both were "specialists" as some would say.

It is ridiculous to compare Mariano Rivera and his resume of accomplishments to David Ortiz.

 

[G0UCONN]

It is ridiculous to compare Mariano Rivera and his resume of accomplishments to David Ortiz.

Nobody is comparing their accomplishments. They both belong in Cooperstown.

The issue was pointing out the silliness of claiming a DH does not belong in the HOF due to his role and then comparing that role to the role of closer....

As a sidenote....you think Rivera's postseason success does not enter into whether he belongs in the HOF? He had no MVPs....no Cy Youngs....he is the all time saves leader by a bit over Trevor Hoffman. So if we cant look at October for Rivera as you say above, he is arguably a borderline case. And to me he is as big a no brainer as you can get for inclusion...with October a big part of that.

 

[Husky25]

It's a good debate no doubt. My take is grab a glove because it's called the "Baseball" HOF not the DH HOF…………growing up baseball was meant to be fielding, hitting, running and throwing, in case you guys haven't noticed he basically does one of them………..he doesn't run unless he's forced to! For this Sox fans who ever dare to throw Cano under the bus for not hustling and then proclaim this guy a HOFer, pretty funny!

A game in which the Designated Hitter is a Bona Fide position at all levels of the game. There are only two (2) full time kickers in the football Hall of Fame (Jan Stenerud, PK and Ray Guy, P) for a sport that has their job description in the sport's name. In a baseball context, there are only 5 out of 74 HoF pitchers who's resume was built out of the Bullpen. It is only a matter of time until a DH primary is elected. Whether it is Ortiz or not is a different conversation. He has a couple of red flags, which has been hashed out here, but it is certainly not outside the realm of possibility. At the end of the day, make no mistake that a DH-primary will be elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum some point.

 

[Deepster]

Nobody is comparing their accomplishments. They both belong in Cooperstown.

The issue was pointing out the silliness of claiming a DH does not belong in the HOF due to his role and then comparing that role to the role of closer....

As a sidenote....you think Rivera's postseason success does not enter into whether he belongs in the HOF? He had no MVPs....no Cy Youngs....he is the all time saves leader by a bit over Trevor Hoffman. So if we cant look at October for Rivera as you say above, he is arguably a borderline case. And to me he is as big a no brainer as you can get for inclusion...with October a big part of that.

I see it differently. I think that Mariano Rivera was far, far better of a closer (and pitcher) than David Ortiz is as a DH (and hitter).

I don't think Ortiz is that good of an offensive player, on paper, all things considered. Of course, when you show a highlight reel of 3 Octobers over a career, you can sell that story through a Red Sox point of view. I look at his overall career and the #'s though...and I don't factor in a handful of "big hits" to a HOF discussion.

 

[G0UCONN]

Agree no one can compare to Rivera as to his domination of his position. Ortiz or whoever. That wasn't the point---it was the claim that DHs do not belong in the HOF, period---given they only hit etc. The comparison, which is a good one, was then made between DHs and closers.

Think you are vastly underselling Ortiz as a hitter. Will end with .285 career BA...2400 hits...525 or so HRs....1700+ RBIs....huge OPS....awesome hitter. And his accomplishments in October are far beyond a handful of big hits. No Ortiz and no WCs in Boston---that is inarguable. They got three thanks to him. That matters. Not enough to make the HOF if he just had that but way more than enough and puts him into "no brainer" category when you throw in his HOF numbers (will end with over 500 HRs and 1700 ish RBIs) for his career.

 

[kibblesnbits]

I see it differently. I think that Mariano Rivera was far, far better of a closer (and pitcher) than David Ortiz is as a DH (and hitter).

I don't think Ortiz is that good of an offensive player, on paper, all things considered. Of course, when you show a highlight reel of 3 Octobers over a career, you can sell that story through a Red Sox point of view. I look at his overall career and the #'s though...and I don't factor in a handful of "big hits" to a HOF discussion.

I can understand that argument. Rivera, while a specialist (he averaged a mere 68 innings per year, or less than 5% of the Yankees' total), was the best ever at his role. Much like the DH, closer is a relatively recent baseball phenomenon. Similarly, whether it is Ortiz or someone else, the specialty of DH will also be worthy of induction for the right players. Ortiz' final numbers should certainly put him in the pile for consideration.

 

[kibblesnbits]

It's a good debate no doubt. My take is grab a glove because it's called the "Baseball" HOF not the DH HOF…………growing up baseball was meant to be fielding, hitting, running and throwing, in case you guys haven't noticed he basically does one of them………..he doesn't run unless he's forced to! For this Sox fans who ever dare to throw Cano under the bus for not hustling and then proclaim this guy a HOFer, pretty funny!

If you want to make that argument then you should recognize that it's also not called "The 9th Inning Hall of Fame." It's such a specialty that some closers don't even head to the bullpen until the 6th or 7th inning.

 

[G0UCONN]

If you want to make that argument then you should recognize that it's also not called "The 9th Inning Hall of Fame." It's such a specialty that some closers don't even head to three bullpen until the 6th or 7th inning.

.....and the fact that nearly every closer, Rivera included, is there because he couldn't hack it and failed as a starter, a.k.a. a 'real pitcher', to steal mau's terminology putting down DHs.

 

[mauconnfan]

I agree on closers the more I think of it…….they should also have a separate hall for them, but there are DH's that ended up having to DH because they got old or hurt……..not because they actually sucked playing the field and hardly ever used a glove!

Hey you guys are Sox fans what can I say……..I will put it this way, who was a better baseball player in their career - Don Mattingly or Papi? The End!

 

[Husky25]

If Ortiz played on almost any other team, he'd be a 1B-primary. The Sox, Yanks, Tigers and a small handful of other franchises have the ability to pay for an offense only player.

 

[mauconnfan]

If Ortiz played on almost any other team, he'd be a 1B-primary. The Sox, Yanks, Tigers and a small handful of other franchises have the ability to pay for an offense only player.

Only a Sox fan would say that…..the guy can't move he's not even a Double A 1st baseman…….you can't hide people at first. He is what he is, if he gets in good for him but EMartinez should be in already then. I think between the steroid issue and the fact he's a DH only it may take some time if he gets in at all……..

 

[Waquoit]

Listen rule or no rule, 2 MLers camping under a pop up is an error……catch the fn ball……..and for him to whine yet again about a scoring decision………a little sickening!

Wrong again, Yankee fan. MLB agrees with Papi.

 

[mauconnfan]

Wrong again, Yankee fan. MLB agrees with Papi.

"I know just muddying the waters………………they always have been but should NOT be - change the rule it's an error"

No you're wrong, I already admitted it was right and I was busting balls but thanks for wasting space Waq!! No matter who hits it this play should be an error though. 2 MLers camped under a pop up should catch it, miscommunication should not result in an undeserved hit……should be changed, not for Papi I mean for all of those types of calls.

 

[60'sfan]

Only a Sox fan would say that…..the guy can't move he's not even a Double A 1st baseman…….you can't hide people at first. He is what he is, if he gets in good for him but EMartinez should be in already then. I think between the steroid issue and the fact he's a DH only it may take some time if he gets in at all……..

I agree that Ortiz is not a shoe-in for the Hall but he is on the brink. If he gets to 500 HRs which appear likely, I think he gets in. I don't agree that he is a "terrible" first baseman. I think that whenever he has been asked to play he has afforded himself well. He started 250 games at firstbase with an fielding average of .990. The league average was .993 during that time but I think if he played the position every day his average would be better. He is not Texiera or nor will he ever be George Scott but I am extremely happy that the Sox have him. Besides after the last two days, it does not make sense to make anti-Papi statements.

 

[Husky25]

Only a Sox fan would say that…..the guy can't move he's not even a Double A 1st baseman…….you can't hide people at first. He is what he is, if he gets in good for him but EMartinez should be in already then. I think between the steroid issue and the fact he's a DH only it may take some time if he gets in at all……..

Really? Only a Sox fan would admit they are among the lucky to root for a team that has an embarrassment of resources that enable them to employee an offense only player?

I didn't say anything about "hiding" Ortiz at first. I said he would play 1st base on almost any other team. And yes you can hide players at first. First base is where team put guys when they are still effective, offensively, but cannot play their past primary position better than another...including Edgar Martinez (During the few interleague games he play), as well as Harmon Killebrew (3b, OF), Carl Yastremski (LF), Jim Thome (3B), Micky Mantle (OF), Dwight Evans (RF), Scott Hatteberg (C), Joe Mauer (C), Nomar (SS, 3B), Mike Napoli, among many others.

Finally, if you are looking for an argument that Edgar Martinez deserves HoF consideration, look some place else. The fact remains that the DH is a bona fide position and a DH-primary will, at some point, get into the Hall without buying a ticket.

 

[mauconnfan]

Really? Only a Sox fan would admit they are among the lucky to root for a team that has an embarrassment of resources that enable them to employee an offense only player?

I didn't say anything about "hiding" Ortiz at first. I said he would play 1st base on almost any other team. And yes you can hide players at first. First base is where team put guys when they are still effective, offensively, but cannot play their past primary position better than another...including Edgar Martinez (During the few interleague games he play), as well as Harmon Killebrew (3b, OF), Carl Yastremski (LF), Jim Thome (3B), Micky Mantle (OF), Dwight Evans (RF), Scott Hatteberg (C), Joe Mauer (C), Nomar (SS, 3B), Mike Napoli, among many others.

Finally, if you are looking for an argument that Edgar Martinez deserves HoF consideration, look some place else. The fact remains that the DH is a bona fide position and a DH-primary will, at some point, get into the Hall without buying a ticket.

You're right but will it be one that used/uses steroids and was listed as such? Guys who played position baseball as they should aren't even in because of steroids so why Papi - especially as a DH only? Why Papi ahead of Bagwell? That would absolutely be ridiculous!

 

[Danzz]

Actually Ortiz isn't a bad fielder. He has no range but the times he has played 1B he did fine. It might be a different story if he played everyday and had more chances but he hasn't really hurt them when he was in there.

 

[G0UCONN]

Bagwell belongs.

But Ortiz is going to finish ahead of Bagwell in basically every offensive category (think he already has more HRs). And Ortiz has three rings...WS MVP...ALCS MVP....tremendous October player.

 

[Husky25]

You're right but will it be one that used/uses steroids and was listed as such? Guys who played position baseball as they should aren't even in because of steroids so why Papi - especially as a DH only? Why Papi ahead of Bagwell? That would absolutely be ridiculous!

I have always been in agreement that Ortiz's inclusion on the list of players taking banned substances 2003, leaked in 2006, may be a bigger hurdle to jump vis a vie the Hall of Fame than his performance on the field.

First of I don't think I ever said Ortiz deserves to be in the Hall any more than Jeff Bagwell, did I? In my opinion, Bagwell belongs in the Hall of Fame. He has 11 more years on the ballot and his highest vote total is 59%, which puts him in striking distance. Ortiz is not even eligible yet. so by definition, he is not ahead of Bagwell. Bagwell is not in the Hall of Fame because of the righteous indignation of the BBWAA in an era that they helped foster, encourage, and cover up in the first place. After politicians, there is no one more full of than an MLB beat writer. The whole process should be revamped and made to emulate the NFL process.

 

[kibblesnbits]

I have always been in agreement that Ortiz's inclusion on the list of players taking banned substances 2003, leaked in 2006, may be a bigger hurdle to jump vis a vie the Hall of Fame than his performance on the field.

First of I don't think I ever said Ortiz deserves to be in the Hall any more than Jeff Bagwell, did I? In my opinion, Bagwell belongs in the Hall of Fame. He has 11 more years on the ballot and his highest vote total is 59%, which puts him in striking distance. Ortiz is not even eligible yet. so by definition, he is not ahead of Bagwell. Bagwell is not in the Hall of Fame because of the righteous indignation of the BBWAA in an era that they helped foster, encourage, and cover up in the first place. After politicians, there is no one more full of than an MLB beat writer. The whole process should be revamped and made to emulate the NFL process.

I think Bagwell belongs in the HoF as well. There will be those that whisper about any player of that era but there is no direct evidence that he took PEDs (at least not any that is publicly available). His meteoric rise does give one a little pause (from 4 home runs in nearly 500 AA at bats to fearsome power hitter within a few years), but if we are going to deprive players of recognition without direct evidence then we should probably just pull the rug on anyone that played during the period because their success "could have" been tied to PEDs.

BTW, not that it's likely to matter to those considering players for the Hall, but being on the 2003 list doesn't mean that the player took steroids. There were many other substances (amphetamines being one that was common in baseball for decades) that could land a player on the list. Most important, however, is that the quality of the testing is unknown and there was no process to challenge what was supposed to be a secret list. Re: test quality, Barry Bonds was not on the list but the government had his 2003 sample retested later and found that it was positive for steroids. Whether that was due to improved screening to filter out common techniques for hiding steroid use or faulty initial testing was not disclosed.

 

[mauconnfan]

I think Bagwell belongs in the HoF as well. There will be those that whisper about any player of that era but there is no direct evidence that he took PEDs (at least not any that is publicly available). His meteoric rise does give one a little pause (from 4 home runs in nearly 500 AA at bats to fearsome power hitter within a few years), but if we are going to deprive players of recognition without direct evidence then we should probably just pull the rug on anyone that played during the period because their success "could have" been tied to PEDs.

BTW, not that it's likely to matter to those considering players for the Hall, but being on the 2003 list doesn't mean that the player took steroids. There were many other substances (amphetamines being one that was common in baseball for decades) that could land a player on the list. Most important, however, is that the quality of the testing is unknown and there was no process to challenge what was supposed to be a secret list. Re: test quality, Barry Bonds was not on the list but the government had his 2003 sample retested later and found that it was positive for steroids. Whether that was due to improved screening to filter out common techniques for hiding steroid use or faulty initial testing was not disclosed.

You guys make me laugh….still hoping Papi is clean and that "2003 list" means nothing……..heck it's part of baseball every day now, just look at these guys. Was watching Carlos Gomez that former great fielding weak hitting skinny OFer for the Twins and look at him now, it's a joke they found something else that baseball can't detect……Braun's back as the same player didn't lose a beat?

Agree let'em ALL in who cares, it's too late now. All of them or none of them. Stop testing them just let them hit 100 HR's and let everyone flock to the ballpark for a softball game.

 

[kibblesnbits]

You guys make me laugh….still hoping Papi is clean and that "2003 list" means nothing……..heck it's part of baseball every day now, just look at these guys. Was watching Carlos Gomez that former great fielding weak hitting skinny OFer for the Twins and look at him now, it's a joke they found something else that baseball can't detect……Braun's back as the same player didn't lose a beat?

Agree let'em ALL in who cares, it's too late now. All of them or none of them. Stop testing them just let them hit 100 HR's and let everyone flock to the ballpark for a softball game.

You mean like the skinny little shortstop that hit 2 home runs in his last season of AAA (over nearly 500 at bats) but has gone on to hit over 250 major league home runs.

 

[mauconnfan]

You mean like the skinny little shortstop that hit 2 home runs in his last season of AAA (over nearly 500 at bats) but has gone on to hit over 250 major league home runs.

No the CFer…………would you like to elaborate on the player you are thinking about? Lord knows I'm not saying HE didn't but going after a guy who averaged just over 12 a year?

I tend to think that a guy who averaged about 15 at best at the Hefty Bag of a stadium then came to Boston to join forces with Manny and suddenly went 31,41,47,54 the next 4 would be more a focus for you don't you think?

 

[Husky25]

No the CFer…………would you like to elaborate on the player you are thinking about? Lord knows I'm not saying HE didn't but going after a guy who averaged just over 12 a year?

I tend to think that a guy who averaged about 15 at best at the Hefty Bag of a stadium then came to Boston to join forces with Manny and suddenly went 31,41,47,54 the next 4 would be more a focus for you don't you think?

Are you really including Ortiz's first 3 part time years in your Twins average? Ortiz hit 10, 18, and 20 homeruns in 2000- 2002, always improving. He also turned 27 for the 2003 season, which is when most players enter the prime of their career. Also around that time, The Sox clamed Dave Madegan found a hole in his swing. This equated to more confidence, plate appearances, walkrate and homerun rate. Finally, Ortiz was also the same size thoughout his career, including his prime.

I doubt you believe me, being a Sox fan and you being so anti-everything-not-Yankee, so check it out for youself at baseball-reference.com.

Maybe, just maybe there are viable reasons why a player improves other than immediately take the easy way out and blaming drugs. Who knows why Ortiz's name was leaked, but blanket speculation is far more irresponsible.

 

[mauconnfan]

Are you really including Ortiz's first 3 part time years im your Twins average? Ortiz hit 1, 18, and 20 homeruns in 2000- 2002, always improving. He also turned 27 for the 2003 season, which is when for most players they enter the prime of their career. Also around that time, The Sox clamed Madegan found a hole in his swing. This equated to more confidence, plate appearances, walkrate and homeruns rate. Finally, Ortiz was also the same size thoughout his career, including his prime.

I doubt you believe me, being a Sox fan and you being so anti-everything-not-Yankee, so check it out for youself at baseball-reference.com.

Maybe, just maybe there are viable reasons why a player improves other than immediately take the easy way out and blaming drugs. Who knows why Ortiz's name was leaked, but blanket speculation is far more irresponsible.

You have proof ARod did it? Never tested positive………..LOL

Palmeiro was the same size for his career too, Braun too….your point is? "Irresponsible" is being a fan and not seeing or admitting the obvious. But then again why would you he's on your team. I may fight for him too if I were you but the point is everyone outside of The Nation sees what you don't………