Pac 12 1/21

[jonson]

I stand by my statement. I initially choked it up to lack of court vision, because I saw too many instances where she took it herself ( either the shot or drove to the basket) when a team mate had a better shot. Then there came instances that she could not have possibly missed. uyNow most scoring guards have a degree of selfishness in them. It's part of the dynamic of a scorer. Sabrina in her soph year became very selfish via her experience with the National team. The national coach was clueless about utilizing a talented roster and negated all she was doing in both high school and AAU But within the end of the AAU season she became the well rounded player who got her teammates involved again and that was reflected by the increased success of the teams she was on. Perhaps we have a different standard for selfish and unselfish. I gave my perspective of what happened to Pivecs game and why she is not as successful in league as she was earlier and last season.

If you put my post in context it basically agree's with you in respect to her playing at the wing. I also stated you do not make a scorer your primary ball handler. That was on Reuck. It is her nature to look for her shot first and the pass second. If it were not so she would be effective at the point. Usually in high school the elite players are on teams that rely on them for scoring so they get in the pattern of going for it solo. I used Clarendon as an extreme example of one person scoring machine in high school who finally made an adjustment in her Jr year. Some players never do. Clarendon's paid off because she fullfilled her potential as a point in the WNBA.

In the Pac 12 the competition is high so even shooting guards have to become better and more frequent passers. This is especially important for teams like Oregon and Oregon State who are loaded with good shooters. I also know players still in high school who I really like as people who have gone through periods of being very selfish on the court. Many times it was circumstance that edged them in that direction. Not being or playing the point position is actually no excuse for not looking for team mate who has a better shot. Being selfish on the court is not necessarily a character flaw. It does not necessarily mean the person is selfish, rather that they might have just developed a situational habit that a change in circumstances might now require them to now alter. Conversely under other circumstances the team might be better of if they don't change.

Another thing I watch is how well a player plays defense.

This is really interesting, and I very much appreciate hearing your views on this (and other things as well). I didn't know that about Sabrina, but I have observed that Oregon is at its best when she scores in the teens and seems to be concentrating on getting others involved before looking to score herself. That may be harder to do with Bando out.

Maybe another (really extreme) example of the above would be Chennedy Carter at Texas A & M. She's a "point guard" by default I guess, but can't help but jack up shot after shot--the numbers can be in the 30s--no matter how difficult or how open a teammate may be. She's spectacular at times, but also hamstrings her team as often as not by shooting them out of games. If I were to select what is to me the optimum blend of selfish and unselfish in a guard, it would be Diana Taurasi, who is (I think) second all-time in assists at UCONN.

 

[Phil]

I have no problem with Oregon being one of the Top Seeds in the first poll out this week.

What I do have a problem with is the NCAA not considering the Pacific NW for the next group of FF venues.

How many such venues provided a bid?

 

[jonson]

Agreed. They were tenacious and really took OSU out of the game. On Friday they frustrated OSU at times in the 2nd half w/ a zone, but on Sunday they were much more aggressive.


I'm sure you've gathered I'm more of an OSU fan (my parents and various uncles and cousins went there). I can certainly appreciate what Graves is doing at Oregon, he's turned them around in a big way. They have some really good players and are exciting to watch. As a Beaver fan I'm naturally inclined to dislike anything in green and yellow, but I enjoy the women's hoops team. Plus I like Graves from his Gonzaga days.

Yes, and as is also obvious, I lean toward the evil empire down the road (and teach there as well). That said, I can't imagine anyone doing a better job--or even the same job--that Rueck has done for the Beavers, and especially given the circumstances when he arrived. (I think the same of Tinkle.) Both teams are very fortunate to be coached as they are now (I'm sure you know all about Graves's predecessor), and it's a pleasure to make visits to the Willamette Valley a real challenge for everyone else in the Pac-12.

 

[LoTrader]

I stand by my statement. I initially choked it up to lack of court vision, because I saw too many instances where she took it herself ( either the shot or drove to the basket) when a team mate had a better shot. Then there came instances that she could not have possibly missed. uyNow most scoring guards have a degree of selfishness in them. It's part of the dynamic of a scorer. Sabrina in her soph year became very selfish via her experience with the National team. The national coach was clueless about utilizing a talented roster and negated all she was doing in both high school and AAU But within the end of the AAU season she became the well rounded player who got her teammates involved again and that was reflected by the increased success of the teams she was on. Perhaps we have a different standard for selfish and unselfish. I gave my perspective of what happened to Pivecs game and why she is not as successful in league as she was earlier and last season.

If you put my post in context it basically agree's with you in respect to her playing at the wing. I also stated you do not make a scorer your primary ball handler. That was on Reuck. It is her nature to look for her shot first and the pass second. If it were not so she would be effective at the point. Usually in high school the elite players are on teams that rely on them for scoring so they get in the pattern of going for it solo. A lot of the time in high school the best player is ball dominant even if they are not the point. I used Clarendon as an extreme example of one person scoring machine in high school who finally made an adjustment in her Jr year. Some players never do. Clarendon's paid off because she fullfilled her potential as a point in the WNBA. She always had the physical skills of a point so all that was required was a change in mindset.

In the Pac 12 the competition is high so even shooting guards have to become better and more frequent passers. This is especially important for teams like Oregon and Oregon State who are loaded with good shooters. I also know players still in high school who I really like as people who have gone through periods of being very selfish on the court. Many times it was circumstance that edged them in that direction. Not being or playing the point position is actually no excuse for not looking for team mate who has a better shot. Being selfish on the court is not necessarily a character flaw. It does not necessarily mean the person is selfish, rather that they might have just developed a situational habit that a change in circumstances might now require them to now alter. Conversely under other circumstances the team might be better of if they don't change.

Another thing I watch is how well a player plays defense.

Thanks for the clarification. I think the word "selfish" has a negative connotation (not a team player). Pivec was by definition an outstanding team player because she followed her coaches wishes this season for her to play point from game 1 this year, even though it is not her natural position. In the long term, this may help Pivec, but so far this year, I think it has been a detriment to her ability to contribute at a high level. In any case, the Beavers are better with Pivec on the floor than without her on the floor. Rueck has had to experiment a lot this season, with players at different positions, and, I hope we don't see Pivec at the "1" anymore this year. I think Aleah Goodman will continue to get even more minutes at the "1" as the season progresses. Lastly, Pivec is a solid defender and not a "shoot first" player. If anything she needs to be more of a "shoot first" player. If you go back and look at Pivec's stats from her Beaver career, she is well balanced between points, rebounds, assists, and blocks.

 

[LoTrader]

Those might be the best 7 players, but somebody needs to provide some minutes of relief to Gulich and Corosdale in the front court. Grymek and/or Washington have to play at least a little bit.

Agreed. I would give Gymek far more minutes than Washington. Rueck has got to bring Grymek along this season, as next season, there will be a sizable void without Marie Gulich.

 

[nwhoopfan]

as next season, there will be a sizable void without Marie Gulich.

That's the elephant in the room. Somehow they've managed to continue on each time a star has used up her eligibility, but I'm kind of nervous about how Grymek and the 2 freshmen are going to handle the 5 spot next year. I can't really see them going small w/ Corosdale and a 4 guard lineup, so somebody is going to have to fill that role.

 

[shizam]

Whoa! Gonna have to vehemently disagree with statement "Pivec is a selfish player". Pivec is not a natural point guard, and had been asked to play the point (which is not her natural, or, preferred position on the court). Pivec's freshman year, she played off the ball, and that is where she is a delight to watch. She has the freedom to catch and shoot, or, penetrate, which she absolutely is capable (and very good) at doing from the wing. It has been hard on her to have to play point. I think Rueck saw last night, it is much better to have Aleah Goodman play the point vs Pivec. Pivec is actually an unselfish player. Aleah Goodman, after the 1st few minutes settled down, and played like a point guard, making solid entry passes, and, hitting the open shot when it was available. Aleah is still learning things like taking on a 6' 4" center at the rim requires a bit more skill than required in high school. Aleah will get there. Pivec will fill up the stat sheet (with good stats) the more she is allowed to play wing. Not worried one bit about Pivec making solid contributions the rest of this season. Scott Rueck is still figuring out his 7 best players. My two cents is: Gulich, McWilliams, Pivec, Corosdale, Tudor, Kalmer, and Goodman. I would not give so many minutes to Maddie Washington, and give those minutes to Kalmer. Lastly, I was impressed the way OSU stayed in the game during the 2nd half. At this point, OSU needs to make sure they play out the rest of the season getting in the top 16 seeding so they can host the 1st 2 NCAA playoff games. Finally, congratulations to the Ducks, they are a fine team, and I look forward to the PAC12 tearing it up in the NCAA Tournament. I don't think anyone is expecting much out of the PAC12, but I believe UO, OSU, and UCLA will make some significant noise come tournament time.

I’ve only seen Or State once this season and that was. Fri at home vs Oregon. What an unusual team in a good way I guess. Only player I thought was really bad was Maddie WASHINGTON. Rueck got her out of there just in time.

 

[willtalk]

This is really interesting, and I very much appreciate hearing your views on this (and other things as well). I didn't know that about Sabrina, but I have observed that Oregon is at its best when she scores in the teens and seems to be concentrating on getting others involved before looking to score herself. That may be harder to do with Bando out.

Maybe another (really extreme) example of the above would be Chennedy Carter at Texas A & M. She's a "point guard" by default I guess, but can't help but jack up shot after shot--the numbers can be in the 30s--no matter how difficult or how open a teammate may be. She's spectacular at times, but also hamstrings her team as often as not by shooting them out of games. If I were to select what is to me the optimum blend of selfish and unselfish in a guard, it would be Diana Taurasi, who is (I think) second all-time in assists at UCONN.

I believe I should have farther defined the necessity for the achievement of proper balance between the individual and the collective. Every player brings their individual skills to the team where it is blended with the other players individual skills in order to make the sum greater than it's individual parts. That is the purpose of " Team Play". Unfortunately the "game of basketball" has morphed more into the team merely being a means for an individual to shine. More and more younger generations have bought into this perspective. For a while "Womens Basketball" seemed to be less influenced, but that is also rapidly changing.

The direction basketball has taken in respect to the dynamic between the promotion of the individual vis the team seems to parallel the transition in American society. We transitioned from the generation of sacrifice that was born out of the depression and struggled through WW2 and the early fifties to the post war babies who where indulged with the things their parents were denied. The became the generation of self entitlement. The post war situational circumstances had changed but unfortunately the need for balance between individual desire and co-operative social responsibility was lost. Individual ambition and success became paramount and was promoted socially. Sports tend to reflect any societies values both positive and negatives. Basketball, as it was purely and american invention, unlike football ( a morph from soccer) and baseball ( a form of cricket), is the perfect metaphor for our society. It is as such also valid barometer for the health of our society.

Basketball, more than any other sport requires the ability to recognize the present situational circumstance in order to evaluate whether individual ( selfish ) or collective team ( unselfish) action is the better choice. In basketball situational circumstances are in constant flux so the ability to recognize in essential in deciding the right action. That is one aspect of BB IQ. You listed Diana Taurasi as an example of someone who personified the optimum blend of selfish and unselfishness as a guard. That optimum blend represents the balance between the individual and society that brings out the best in both. When that " Balance is not maintained it results in the eventual detriment. We are seeing that manifest in our society now. The individual needs the team as much as the team needs the individual. Sometimes for the good of the team the individual needs to shine, but other times they need to become one of many. The trick is knowing when each time takes place. The are dictated by situational circumstance which in basketball is ever in flux. A really good Point guard, like Taurasi acts like the conductor of an orchestra and makes sure the instruments are on key and the timing of the solo's are followed. The maintain the balance between the individual and the team.

Unfortunately players like Allen Iverson were promoted as an ideal. The thing is that despite his massive individual skills those skills were never the asset to a team that most believed. This became evident when the teams he left did not decline in wins, but rather usually played better with him gone. His remark " Practice" speaks to the heart of his cluelessness about the role of the individual to their team. The major purpose of " Practice is not to make the individual better, but to integrate individual skills to make the team better. He could not see how it helped him so he felt it was unnecessary. For him yes! But practice was not to perfect his individual skills but to integrate them into the team. He only perceived the team as a vehicle for his own ends. The team was not important except in that concept. He didn't recognize that long term he was acting even to his own detriment. He is the poster boy for the clueless me first self entitled American who was and still is instrumental in the decline, of not only our social, but economic structures. At the end, no one wanted him on their team even though many of his skills were still intact. The fact that he is still idolized by many young players speaks volumes.

 

[willtalk]

Thanks for the clarification. I think the word "selfish" has a negative connotation (not a team player). Pivec was by definition an outstanding team player because she followed her coaches wishes this season for her to play point from game 1 this year, even though it is not her natural position. In the long term, this may help Pivec, but so far this year, I think it has been a detriment to her ability to contribute at a high level. In any case, the Beavers are better with Pivec on the floor than without her on the floor. Rueck has had to experiment a lot this season, with players at different positions, and, I hope we don't see Pivec at the "1" anymore this year. I think Aleah Goodman will continue to get even more minutes at the "1" as the season progresses. Lastly, Pivec is a solid defender and not a "shoot first" player. If anything she needs to be more of a "shoot first" player. If you go back and look at Pivec's stats from her Beaver career, she is well balanced between points, rebounds, assists, and blocks.

Let me begin by saying that I did not watch that many games last season, but the ones I did I would agree that Pivec was very effective. I have watched almost all the games this season. Than you Pac 12 Network/Comcast. and was also able to record for replay. Pivec was also very effective stat wise ( except for turnovers) in most of the earlier games despite playing the point. Because of the lesser opposition turnovers and poor situational circumstances choices did not have as many negative results or even impacted the outcome of the games that much. That began to manifest when they faced the superior athletes of UCLA, USC, and Arizona St. It was then that Rueck knew he needed to make a change. You can get away with a lot of things against inferior competition or a team that does not match up with your team at specific positions.

Whether a team is better with any player on the floor is dependent of a lot of other variables. At any given time any team is better without even their best players on the floor. If that were not so than no player would ever be benched when they are not producing. Making a blanket statement like " In any case the Beavers are better with Pivec on the floor than with out her on the floor" does not take into consideration situational changes and circumstances. If that were so then Rueck would not have played Goodman 24 min. and Pivec 28. He played McWilliams 32, Tudor 39. Pivec was 1-7 shooting , with one assist and the team ran better with Goodwin on the floor that game. Who makes the team better is highly situational and can vary from game to game. They only played Tudor 14 min against Arizona st. That sort of situation can last for a game or sometimes even longer. My point is that the situation is different this year than last. The situation will change as the season goes on. Players roles will change as well.

Who will be on the floor this year and next will depends what any player brings in respect to the teams needs. Last years stats mean very little this year because the teams dynamic and players are so different. Next year it will change again because of the addition of Slocum. Slocum will definitely replace someone in the starting lineup and the player she replaces will hinge on the skills she brings that would negate the least need the replaced player supplies. A lot will depend on which players compliment each other the most.

As to Pivec being a solid defender- not really. Oregon state is not blessed with a lot of really quick players. Quickness and footwork are the core of playing defense. The over all standard for that at Oregon st. is low. Pivec is the weakest of the three starting Oregon parameter defenders by quite a bit. Her technique and focus is not good. This is why I pointed out Sabally's big game was partially because they switched Pivec over to her.

As to your statement that Pivec needs to shoot more, from the parameter perhaps. But she needs to be much more selective to drives to the hoop. From what I have observed recently she ends up driving into double teams only to get her shot blocked. Those attempts only work against lesser talent. This is where a lot of those 1-7 results come from. If she does drive she needs to look for a kick out player to pass too instead of usually being locked into finishing in an impossible situation. She might have been more successful last season on those because Weisner usually drew a lot of defensive attention.

I wouldn't get too locked into making an evaluation as to a players value based on a different past circumstance. With different players and circumstances, the team dynamics and chemistry changes resulting in different team needs and requiring a change in players roles. Slocum is only one aspect. I am sure the lack of points in the paint will also have a yet unforeseen effect as well. I have seen the 6'9" player and she is not close to being ready to replace Gulich offensively yet. Defensively she is relatively good, but where will that offense form Gulich come from? Perhaps that 6'7" forward is an offensive threat.

 

[nwhoopfan]

As to Pivec being a solid defender- not really. Oregon state is not blessed with a lot of really quick players. Quickness and footwork are the core of playing defense. The over all standard for that at Oregon st. is low.

Oregon St. has not been blessed w/ much team speed going back for years, and yet they've played stifling defense. Some how, some way they've negated the overall lack of quickness.

Because of the lesser opposition

Those attempts only work against lesser talent.

I think her performances against Notre Dame (before most of the ACL injuries struck the team) and Duke run contrary to this. I'm sticking w/ my opinion that she's in a slump currently. She does over commit to the drive sometimes, but I've seen plenty of good drives that put her in good scoring position, she just didn't finish. Plays that I've seen her make before.

 

[willtalk]

Oregon St. has not been blessed w/ much team speed going back for years, and yet they've played stifling defense. Some how, some way they've negated the overall lack of quickness.




I think her performances against Notre Dame (before most of the ACL injuries struck the team) and Duke run contrary to this. I'm sticking w/ my opinion that she's in a slump currently. She does over commit to the drive sometimes, but I've seen plenty of good drives that put her in good scoring position, she just didn't finish. Plays that I've seen her make before.

You may very well be right. I just haven't paid that much attention until recently so I may just be observing her slump. No player or team is ever as good as their best nor as bad as their worst game. That might also apply to individual players in respect to their hot streaks and slumps as well.

As to them playing good D with out fast and quick players they have been blessed with really good defensive posts and they play good help defense. Only when they play man to man against certain types of players are individuals exposed. My perceptions of her D might also be limited to her slump as well. Playing against a good or lesser team is less an issue as favorable or unfavorable match ups in respect to individual competition is concerned. Time should clarify a lot..

She did seem to have a very good game statistically.against ND. 19 pts 8rb's 6 As and only 2 turnovers. It sort of raises the question of what happened between then and now. Not so much about Pivecs individual performance, that sort of thing happens through out a season, but about her PG play. It sort of plays into the possibility that the attention and hype influenced her negatively. Often a player tries to hard to maintain a standard and it has the opposite effect. What I see as her focus on her own scoring might just be her attempt to force her way out of a slump.

 

[LoTrader]

You may very well be right. I just haven't paid that much attention until recently so I may just be observing her slump. No player or team is ever as good as their best nor as bad as their worst game. That might also apply to individual players in respect to their hot streaks and slumps as well.

As to them playing good D with out fast and quick players they have been blessed with really good defensive posts and they play good help defense. Only when they play man to man against certain types of players are individuals exposed. My perceptions of her D might also be limited to her slump as well. Playing against a good or lesser team is less an issue as favorable or unfavorable match ups in respect to individual competition is concerned. Time should clarify a lot..

She did seem to have a very good game statistically.against ND. 19 pts 8rb's 6 As and only 2 turnovers. It sort of raises the question of what happened between then and now. Not so much about Pivecs individual performance, that sort of thing happens through out a season, but about her PG play. It sort of plays into the possibility that the attention and hype influenced her negatively. Often a player tries to hard to maintain a standard and it has the opposite effect. What I see as her focus on her own scoring might just be her attempt to force her way out of a slump.

willtalk, what happened to Pivec, is just what you pointed out, when OSU played against much quicker teams, Pivec's performance at the point guard position, was exposed. Pivec is not a point guard. Situations dictate which 5 players to put on the floor. Examining the Beavers players, Pivec will always be one of those 5 players. And I cannot disagree more re: Pivec's defensive ability. Pivec does move her feet and is both a solid "on ball defender", and plays solid "team" defense. Beavers just don't know how to defend the pick and roll. That is OSU's team defensive weakness. willtalk, we are going to have to agree to disagree re: Pivec. Rueck depends on Pivec so much that he has unfortunately put her in situations where her weaknesses have been exposed this year. As I said in a previous post, this may help Pivec in the long run, but it has impacted her play (slump) this year. Pivec will continue to improve, and mock my words, she will be an All PAC12 1st team player before she graduates.