OT: With NCAA investigation underway, Arizona's Sean Miller faces complicated future

[Guapo]

the ncaa shouldnt have jurisdiction over school wide academics.

the apr shouldnt exist at all

so because apr exists you think the ncaa should have jurisdiction over the viability of academic classes at state universities.

okey dokey - good luck with those legal arguments

<3

 

[HHusky]

The NCAA should not have been able to implement any APR (Academic Progress
Rating) in the first place. BUT they did. They put all member schools on the same playing field of APR.
And they punished UCONN. That's why UCONN fans might reasonably expect repercussions for schools with 2 decades of shameful academic fraud. (Assuming a level academic field). Otherwise they should have said "ANY SCHOOL CAN HAVE BOGUS COURSES" to fulfill their APR.

 

[EROCK CONN]

so because apr exists you think the ncaa should have jurisdiction over the viability of academic classes at state universities.

okey dokey - good luck with those legal arguments

Not jurisdiction, but someone needs to have a standard for the student-athletes and the classses they take. UNC offered fake classes so they could obtain an unfair competitive advantage over the competition. UNC’s action were negligent at an institutional level and, in my opinion, should warrant significant punishment for the teams that had players in those classses.

 

[whaler11]

Not jurisdiction, but someone needs to have a standard for the student-athletes and the classses they take. UNC offered fake classes so they could obtain an unfair competitive advantage over the competition. UNC’s action were negligent at an institutional level and, in my opinion, should warrant significant punishment for the teams that had players in those classses.

it already exists. its called accrediation.

Accrediting body won't take further action on UNC

If you think there arent many basketball and football factories where the students don’t do a lick of actual academic work....

 

[huskymedic]

 

[olehead]

The NCAA always hammers Mizzou. They are the UCONN of the Midwest. They have no get out of jail free credentials with the NCAA.

Mizzou had an asst.coach under Norm Stewart by the last name of Daly I believe. Daly, perhaps through the same Fab Five web, developed a recruiting pipeline from Columbia, Mo. to Detroit in the late 80's - 90's. This pipeline, represented by a number of Detroit stand-outs who starred for Mizzou led to the NCAA to begin sniffing around.

 

[huskymedic]

Pressure on Sean Miller building as Arizona moves to fire assistant coach Mark Phelps

>>Yahoo Sports confirmed multiple media reports that the suspension was related to academic work by former Arizona recruit Shareef O’Neal, son of former NBA star Shaquille O’Neal, who is now at UCLA.<<

 

[CL82]

I seem to recall uNC admitted the classes were fraudulent. They also said they were run by a member of the athletic admin staff who did the grading, not a professor.

This was there position when their academic certification was under review. To the NCAA they said, we accept the classes so piss off. Amazingly those contradictory positions were allowed to stand by both regulatory agencies.

 

[huskymedic]

‘Odds stacked against’ Sean Miller remaining Arizona’s coach after Mark Phelps’ suspension, per Jeff Goodman

 

[Edward Sargent]

Yep one fraudulent class for one basketball player and we will take you down. An entire fraudulent department for all athletes and assorted other students? Nice work

 

[Scrutineer]

Do you not get why the NCAA didn’t do anything to UNC?

They know they don’t have any jurisdiction.

This seriously isn’t that hard.

I repeat. They admitted the classes were fraudulent, so with that admission the NCAA could have declared the kids ineligible for failing to meet credit requirements.

 

[whaler11]

I repeat. They admitted the classes were fraudulent, so with that admission the NCAA could have declared the kids ineligible for failing to meet credit requirements.

Keep believing that and keep bringing it up everytime someone gets sanctioned by the NCAA.

The NCAA stood down because they didn’t have jurisdiction and it was obvious to everyone except those still bitching online.

 

[Edward Sargent]

Keep believing that and keep bringing it up everytime someone gets sanctioned by the NCAA.

The NCAA stood down because they didn’t have jurisdiction and it was obvious to everyone except those still bitching online.

Jurisdiction? What jurisdiction did the NCAA have with Penn St? I think its more like UNC saying you sanction us we'll make you look like smacked a$$es because you could have and should have done something about this years ago. Penn St didn't have that luxury

 

[whaler11]

Jurisdiction? What jurisdiction did the NCAA have with Penn St? I think its more like UNC saying you sanction us we'll make you look like smacked a$$es because you could have and should have done something about this years ago. Penn St didn't have that luxury

I can’t even.... stick with your delusions that the NCAA can and should legislate the curriculum at state universities.

btw do you even know what happened at penn state?

 

[Mr. French]

Keep believing that and keep bringing it up everytime someone gets sanctioned by the NCAA.

The NCAA stood down because they didn’t have jurisdiction and it was obvious to everyone except those still bitching online.

I like when you do that thing where you act like everyone else in an idiot.

I’ll give you this, it sounds convincing.

 

[whaler11]

I like when you do that thing where you act like everyone else in an idiot.

I’ll give you this, it sounds convincing.

The NCAA spent years on it - they were dying to sanction UNC for it.

In order to believe that the NCAA could sanction them you’d have to give the NCAA the power to determine on any member campus which classes are ‘legitimate’ and which classes aren’t.

Since they would be drummed out of court in a fit of hysterical laughter if they tried to claim that jurisdiction - they did the only thing they could do - nothing.

I’m not even sure why people are so bent out of shape about it. Dozens of schools keep kids eligible in similar ways and everyone just looks the other way. It’s kind of ridiculous to be mad at the NCAA when it’s the schools themselves who don’t even pretend to educate players.

 

[intlzncster]

The NCAA spent years on it - they were dying to sanction UNC for it.

In order to believe that the NCAA could sanction them you’d have to give the NCAA the power to determine on any member campus which classes are ‘legitimate’ and which classes aren’t.

Since they would be drummed out of court in a fit of hysterical laughter if they tried to claim that jurisdiction - they did the only thing they could do - nothing.

I’m not even sure why people are so bent out of shape about it. Dozens of schools keep kids eligible in similar ways and everyone just looks the other way. It’s kind of ridiculous to be mad at the NCAA when it’s the schools themselves who don’t even pretend to educate players.

It's exactly why the NCAA accepts whatever numbers schools give them for APR. And why those at UCONN (under Hathaway and Co) were complete and utter morons for not putting forth qualifying APR stats. Monumentally stupid.

The only way to trip up with a poor APR is to shoot yourself in the foot.

 

[Scrutineer]

The NCAA spent years on it - they were dying to sanction UNC for it. You must be one of the few people who believe the NCAA would be dying to sanction one of their biggest cash cows.

In order to believe that the NCAA could sanction them you’d have to give the NCAA the power to determine on any member campus which classes are ‘legitimate’ and which classes aren’t. That determination was made by the academic accrediting body and referenced by the NCAA in its defense against the lawsuit for damages filed by two former players.

Since they would be drummed out of court in a fit of hysterical laughter if they tried to claim that jurisdiction - they did the only thing they could do - nothing. This is addressed in my lengthy staff report that follows.

I’m not even sure why people are so bent out of shape about it. Dozens of schools keep kids eligible in similar ways and everyone just looks the other way. It’s kind of ridiculous to be mad at the NCAA when it’s the schools themselves who don’t even pretend to educate players.

You may not agree, but I believe if the NCAA truly wanted to clean up the improprieties and get schools to follow their rules they blew a great opportunity on this case. If they hammered uNC all others would likely say, "wow, if they did it to them, what will happen to us?"


It sounds as if you believe:
-there is no pecking order of schools in the minds of the NCAA, and;
-that if a pecking order does exist it doesn't impact how cases are adjudicated.

If that's the case, based on how some schools have been sanctioned while others not so much, I think you're wrong. I'm retired and have lots of time and thanks to relatives in NC, I was kept abreast of the various steps along the way in this uNC fraud case and have read a lot of material about it. How the NCAA and uNC defended themselves in the lawsuits filed against them was interesting and very telling so I kept the info in a folder on my computer.

uNC stopped the phony classes in 2011 but it was three years later before the program was first "investigated" by the NCAA. Former men's star, Rashad McCants, had stated publicly (not sure the forum) that he had been forced into the phony classes, uNC fans laughed at him, called him a loser for failing to make it big in the NBA, and it all looked as if it was going away.

Then, in 2015, his sister, Rashanda McCants, who also played there, filed a lawsuit claiming she was cheated out of an education by being directed by uNC to take meaningless classes (the fraudulent African and Afro-American Studies classes). Her lawsuit was joined by a football player who claimed the same damages. The Raleigh Observer had stayed on the case and kept digging and publishing information so the NCAA was practically dragged kicking and screaming into reviewing the issue once again, but only after it was in the public eye for another year.

It then took the NCAA about two years to "review" the case before they rendered the opinion that the issue was not in their purview and the academic issue had been handled by the Southern Accrediting Body when it placed uNC on probation for one year.

The points I keep referencing are valid and, if the NCAA treated this case as many suspect they would have for other schools, they would have hit them with major sanctions because uNC admitted the classes were fraudulent.

Following quote is from the NCAA and uNC in their defense against the lawsuit:
The NCAA said, "Last October (2014), an independent report commissioned by North Carolina showed that the university’s athletic department pushed athletes into a system of fraudulent, no-show classes to keep players eligible. Of the 3,100 students who took the “paper” African-American Studies classes over 18 years, 47.4 percent were UNC athletes. The NCAA has previously said its enforcement staff is investigating the academic fraud at UNC.

As for uNC, it stated:
The University acknowledges that certain irregular classes were offered by the Department of African and Afro-American Studies (“AFAM”) for a period of years prior to 2011,” UNC wrote in Friday’s filing."
“But it cannot accept Plaintiffs’ attempt to characterize their isolated experiences of enrolling in and receiving credit for one or two of these alleged ‘paper classes,’ among an entire course of study that they admit was otherwise academically sound, as a recompensable claim.

Good defense against a lawsuit seeking damages for being denied the education promised to the student athletes, but they admitted to "alleged paper classes" and tried to characterize them as one or two classes while Rashad McCants had taken four of them his last semester, second semester of his junior year.

In its defense against the award of damages in the lawsuit, the NCAA later said: " there’s no “viable legal claim” against the association when schools break NCAA rules. The NCAA wrote that it “did not voluntarily assume a legal duty to ensure the academic integrity of courses offered by its member institutions,” and that its enforcement model “creates no legal duty to prevent NCAA members from violating NCAA rules.”

But they conveniently didn't say they themselves can choose to overlook violations of their rules that would affect eligibility as was the end result of the uNC case.

To avoid writing a book, here's the bottom line:
-the independent commission that reviewed the issue for uNC stated the classes were fraudulent;
-uNC admitted to offering fraudulent classes;
-the NCAA stated it was investigating the fraudulent classes;
-the academic accrediting body sanctioned uNC for academic issues;
-serious sanctions against uNC would hurt viewership and affect ratings, which would cost the NCAA and ESPN revenue from their TV contracts;
-so the NCAA and uNC coordinated their defense on the lawsuits for damages by the student athletes;
-then the NCAA said the academic issues were addressed by the accrediting body (which said the classes were no longer a problem because they ended in 2011);
-so the NCAA chose to overlook the fact that the admitted fraud allowed uNC to keep athletes eligible;

Armed with uNC's admssions about the fraudulent classes, and their own independent commission's charge that the classes were fraudulent and the fact they were sanctioned for them by the accrediting body, the NCAA would not have been laughed out of court for applying sanctions for the use of ineligible players.

 

[whaler11]

You may not agree, but I believe if the NCAA truly wanted to clean up the improprieties and get schools to follow their rules they blew a great opportunity on this case. If they hammered uNC all others would likely say, "wow, if they did it to them, what will happen to us?"


It sounds as if you believe:
-there is no pecking order of schools in the minds of the NCAA, and;
-that if a pecking order does exist it doesn't impact how cases are adjudicated.

If that's the case, based on how some schools have been sanctioned while others not so much, I think you're wrong. I'm retired and have lots of time and thanks to relatives in NC, I was kept abreast of the various steps along the way in this uNC fraud case and have read a lot of material about it. How the NCAA and uNC defended themselves in the lawsuits filed against them was interesting and very telling so I kept the info in a folder on my computer.

uNC stopped the phony classes in 2011 but it was three years later before the program was first "investigated" by the NCAA. Former men's star, Rashad McCants, had stated publicly (not sure the forum) that he had been forced into the phony classes, uNC fans laughed at him, called him a loser for failing to make it big in the NBA, and it all looked as if it was going away.

Then, in 2015, his sister, Rashanda McCants, who also played there, filed a lawsuit claiming she was cheated out of an education by being directed by uNC to take meaningless classes (the fraudulent African and Afro-American Studies classes). Her lawsuit was joined by a football player who claimed the same damages. The Raleigh Observer had stayed on the case and kept digging and publishing information so the NCAA was practically dragged kicking and screaming into reviewing the issue once again, but only after it was in the public eye for another year.

It then took the NCAA about two years to "review" the case before they rendered the opinion that the issue was not in their purview and the academic issue had been handled by the Southern Accrediting Body when it placed uNC on probation for one year.

The points I keep referencing are valid and, if the NCAA treated this case as many suspect they would have for other schools, they would have hit them with major sanctions because uNC admitted the classes were fraudulent.

Following quote is from the NCAA and uNC in their defense against the lawsuit:
The NCAA said, "Last October (2014), an independent report commissioned by North Carolina showed that the university’s athletic department pushed athletes into a system of fraudulent, no-show classes to keep players eligible. Of the 3,100 students who took the “paper” African-American Studies classes over 18 years, 47.4 percent were UNC athletes. The NCAA has previously said its enforcement staff is investigating the academic fraud at UNC.

As for uNC, it stated:
The University acknowledges that certain irregular classes were offered by the Department of African and Afro-American Studies (“AFAM”) for a period of years prior to 2011,” UNC wrote in Friday’s filing."
“But it cannot accept Plaintiffs’ attempt to characterize their isolated experiences of enrolling in and receiving credit for one or two of these alleged ‘paper classes,’ among an entire course of study that they admit was otherwise academically sound, as a recompensable claim.

Good defense against a lawsuit seeking damages for being denied the education promised to the student athletes, but they admitted to "alleged paper classes" and tried to characterize them as one or two classes while Rashad McCants had taken four of them his last semester, second semester of his junior year.

In its defense against the award of damages in the lawsuit, the NCAA later said: " there’s no “viable legal claim” against the association when schools break NCAA rules. The NCAA wrote that it “did not voluntarily assume a legal duty to ensure the academic integrity of courses offered by its member institutions,” and that its enforcement model “creates no legal duty to prevent NCAA members from violating NCAA rules.”

But they conveniently didn't say they themselves can choose to overlook violations of their rules that would affect eligibility as was the end result of the uNC case.

To avoid writing a book, here's the bottom line:
-the independent commission that reviewed the issue for uNC stated the classes were fraudulent;
-uNC admitted to offering fraudulent classes;
-the NCAA stated it was investigating the fraudulent classes;
-the academic accrediting body sanctioned uNC for academic issues;
-serious sanctions against uNC would hurt viewership and affect ratings, which would cost the NCAA and ESPN revenue from their TV contracts;
-so the NCAA and uNC coordinated their defense on the lawsuits for damages by the student athletes;
-then the NCAA said the academic issues were addressed by the accrediting body (which said the classes were no longer a problem because they ended in 2011);
-so the NCAA chose to overlook the fact that the admitted fraud allowed uNC to keep athletes eligible;

Armed with uNC's admssions about the fraudulent classes, and their own independent commission's charge that the classes were fraudulent and the fact they were sanctioned for them by the accrediting body, the NCAA would not have been laughed out of court for applying sanctions for the use of ineligible players.

tl/dr.
1. there are things called laws and lawyers.
2. yes the ncaa treats schools differently
3. they didnt do anything to unc because they couldnt - you wanting them to have jurisdiction over a public schools cirriculum doesnt make that possible

Do you not know what you are watching? The NCAA is a farce - they exist to enrich themselves while providing the illusion of oversight.

The people have spoken. Almost nobody cares if college football and basketball players even pretend to go to school.

Either get over it or stick your head back in the sand because your assumptions of the reality are in another galaxy.

 

[Edward Sargent]

The NCAA spent years on it - they were dying to sanction UNC for it.

In order to believe that the NCAA could sanction them you’d have to give the NCAA the power to determine on any member campus which classes are ‘legitimate’ and which classes aren’t.

Since they would be drummed out of court in a fit of hysterical laughter if they tried to claim that jurisdiction - they did the only thing they could do - nothing.

I’m not even sure why people are so bent out of shape about it. Dozens of schools keep kids eligible in similar ways and everyone just looks the other way. It’s kind of ridiculous to be mad at the NCAA when it’s the schools themselves who don’t even pretend to educate players.

Maybe the NCAA spent years figuring a way to not have to sanction UNC

 

[UConnNick]

The NCAA is a totally corrupt and morally bankrupt farce.

 

[Travelman6]

The NCAA was ..."dying"... to sanction UNC? Ya.... Not in this world...

 

[Edward Sargent]

tl/dr.
1. there are things called laws and lawyers.
2. yes the ncaa treats schools differently
3. they didnt do anything to unc because they couldnt - you wanting them to have jurisdiction over a public schools cirriculum doesnt make that possible

Do you not know what you are watching? The NCAA is a farce - they exist to enrich themselves while providing the illusion of oversight.

The people have spoken. Almost nobody cares if college football and basketball players even pretend to go to school.

Either get over it or stick your head back in the sand because your assumptions of the reality are in another galaxy.

I think you are pretty far out on a branch that is close to being sawed off. The NCAA isn’t a court and doesn’t have to consider jurisdiction.

 

[billybud]

It all comes back to who has jurisdiction over what...

NCAA has athletics

Other bodies oversee academics

As soon as it was determined that the UNC classes were not set up just for athletes but were available for other students, the issue of "extra benefits" no longer existed.

The issue became one of loosely monitored academics in the African Studies department...which is an academic issue not one of athletics.

 

[Edward Sargent]

It all comes back to who has jurisdiction over what...

NCAA has athletics

Other bodies oversee academics

As soon as it was determined that the UNC classes were not set up just for athletes but were available for other students, the issue of "extra benefits" no longer existed.

The issue became one of loosely monitored academics in the African Studies department...which is an academic issue not one of athletics.

How does what you say jive with APR?