OT: Whaler fans enjoy a little schadenfreude

[TheDoggPound]

- NHL wants Seattle - Seattle wants NBA | (no new arena on horizon for at least 4-5 years)

- Jacobs (head of relocation committee) like CT said covets Houston but Les Alexander (owner of Rockets) is extremely cool on the idea of sharing the building with another tenant.

- Portland is a distinct possibility, Moda Center is NHL-ready facility but Paul Allen (owner of the Trail Blazers) only wants a relocation on the cheap or he's not interested + it's been bandied about that the NHL thinks moving a team to Seattle alone could deliver entire PNW which likely diminishes POR appeal to the league.

- Salt Lake City's arena is approaching 30 years old and that market is smaller and less robust than Hartford county in regards to population, TV sets, disposable income and corporate presence. Plus it would be tough for any smaller market to support two winter sports.

- Quebec City is a slam dunk; Owner, Market & Building.

- Las Vegas; Owner, Building, Market? They claimed the ST drive went well but I hold some doubts due to irregularities with the process.

- Hamilton unfortunately will not have a chance until either a. current NBC deal expires b. NHL expands past 32. Then there are the issues with indemnification and whether the Sabres and Maple Leafs would actually sign off.

Kansas City has a building and it's one of the most profitable in the country, bringing in an NHL tenant would hurt the bottom line instead of helping.

Milwaukee will have a building but again would be a struggle for a smaller market to support two winter sports (although they probably would prefer NHL to NBA if they had the choice)

That's about it but unless you want to include Austin, San Antonio, Louisville, Virginia possibly or Atlanta2

 

[Exit 4]

Oh without a doubt, The NHL wants Seattle. Seattle city council was going to give 200 million for a new arena if the supersonics returned, but the MOU was for bball only, not bball/hockey Walker gave a bunch of $ to the Bucks, so they're staying in Milwaukee. Plus the whole steet thing didn't work out. Seattle govt is a huge pain to work with. Ray barotozek ( rich hedge fund guy from CT) was proposing the tukwila site( suburb of Seattle), but couldn't find other $$$ backers. I think NHL wants downtown arenas not suburbs. See Glendale, Calgary, Florida, etc. (another plus for the XL)

Seattle will happen.
As for Houston. Jermey Jacobs of the Bruins and head of BOG wants Houston badly. Hates idea of Quebec. He's sorta warm to Hartford cause of travel and an excuse to raise Bruins ticket prices, but won't admit it publicly

But Houston won't happen because the rockets owner (les Alexander) hates hockey and won't allow bball and hockey in his arena

Vegas will be expansion(500 million) defer for a year or two and Seattle/Portland will get a team once they open up expansion again. 500 million for a niche sport is insane. 14 cities were handed expansion paperwork and only 2 replied. Hard to make only 2 cities fight over each other where they were expecting 4 or 5 cities to compete. Quebec MAY get a relocation if PK is that desperate for cash.

June 22nd is when they will potentially make an announcement on expansion
It bothers me how navigate research (the company involved with big12 expansion was also involved with NHL expansion)

I applaud you for your knowledge on the subject. Cool beans. I don't want to be a downer on Hartford...just trying to be objective about it.

 

[Palatine]

Hartford has a stagnate population, is bleeding jobs and corporate HQ are moving out of the city and state. They need to fix that problem first before they are a viable expansion candidate.

 

[Exit 4]

Hartford has a stagnate population, is bleeding jobs and corporate HQ are moving out of the city and state. They need to fix that problem first before they are a viable expansion candidate.

I think these demographic and economic negative trends definitely play a role in this discussion. If they were pointing up (in a material way), I'd be more optimistic.

 

[ct06111]

Hartford has a stagnate population, is bleeding jobs and corporate HQ are moving out of the city and state. They need to fix that problem first before they are a viable expansion candidate.

Hartford would and should never be considered for a "expansion"' candidate.
Too expensive and the Team would SUCK for 4-5 years and be filled with rejects from other teams due to expansion draft.

Hartford chances are by relocation only.

edit: I know there was an Article posted about kids leaving to bigger cities and not enough stuff to do in Hartford as the reason. NHL and a rebuilt XL is part of the answer. Kids would stay if we were a major league city again. Make that ballpark AAA Red Sox would help also. Let Larry luchchinno swoop in, buy out Solomon, and be in charge of the development around the park. Have tribes rebuild the XL and put a casino in the basement.

I know I'm not helping, but I don't want this turning into cesspool material and end up bashing the market, So I hope it can stay somewhat about Hartford hockey and it chances. Plus more making fun of karmanos $ problems . That is always fun. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

 

[huskypantz]

The Hartford of the future will need to be part of an effort to build CT as a whole. UConn needs to drive intelligent capital, help push job growth (appears to be happening with tech park). Stamford, New Haven need to be hubs and share in the CT theme. Change policies to recruit businesses - use your god-given gift (ie between NY and Boston).

 

[ct06111]

Nice article in Greenwich Free Press from a high schooler about the return of the whale

The Case for a Hartford Whalers Comeback

 

[uconnphil2016]

Perhaps this has already been covered, but isn't fair to say that the following cities are ahead of Hartford for the NHL?

1) Seattle <--great demographic trends - no basketball competition
2) Hamilton Ont <--to create a mets/yankees rivalry with the leafs
3) Portland <--rapidly growing city
4) Quebac City <--hungrier than Hartford for ice sports
5) Hartford <--difficult to imagine this is really better than the Islanders or Devils current situation

Candidates to relocate:
a) Arizona?
b) Panthers?
c) Hurricanes
d) Devils?
e) Islanders?

Vegas at #1. Pretty sure it's confirmed that they're putting an expansion team in Vegas already. Weird how Vegas can get a team but Quebec City can't...

 

[uconnphil2016]

The Hartford of the future will need to be part of an effort to build CT as a whole. UConn needs to drive intelligent capital, help push job growth (appears to be happening with tech park). Stamford, New Haven need to be hubs and share in the CT theme. Change policies to recruit businesses - use your god-given gift (ie between NY and Boston).

I just moved from Hartford area to New Haven and it's like night and day. I knew that Hartford was dead even while I was there, but after having experienced living in a new place, it's really remarkable how little there is to do in Hartford, especially for people in their 20s

 

[ZOOCONN]

I just moved from Hartford area to New Haven and it's like night and day. I knew that Hartford was dead even while I was there, but after having experienced living in a new place, it's really remarkable how little there is to do in Hartford, especially for people in their 20s

My friend just moved down to hew haven and he loves it, so many different things for you to do.

 

[Exit 4]

Vegas at #1. Pretty sure it's confirmed that they're putting an expansion team in Vegas already. Weird how Vegas can get a team but Quebec City can't...

Yep. Apparently the gyrations of the Canadian Dollar and Quebac's very high income tax rate (50%?) create a real disadvantage on any NHL team competing for free agent talent.

 

[Palatine]

The Hartford of the future will need to be part of an effort to build CT as a whole. UConn needs to drive intelligent capital, help push job growth (appears to be happening with tech park). Stamford, New Haven need to be hubs and share in the CT theme. Change policies to recruit businesses - use your god-given gift (ie between NY and Boston).

Love Hartford but good luck.

 

[IMind]

Yep. Apparently the gyrations of the Canadian Dollar and Quebac's very high income tax rate (50%?) create a real disadvantage on any NHL team competing for free agent talent.

I think the income tax is over stated as a reason. I just think the relative weakness of the Canadian dollar right now makes the actual cost of an expansion franchise just too much. Basically your paying 120-130% the price that anyone else is. They basically would have to pay ~$600 million Canadaian for a team with zero assets just to start. The Winnipeg group that bought the Thrashers only paid $170 million and that was for a franchise with some decent players. Honestly why would you pay ~$500 million for a franchise when there are two or three NHL franchises that seem destined to move in the next 10 years.

 

[Exit 4]

I think the income tax is over stated as a reason. I just think the relative weakness of the Canadian dollar right now makes the actual cost of an expansion franchise just too much. Basically your paying 120-130% the price that anyone else is. They basically would have to pay ~$600 million Canadaian for a team with zero assets just to start. The Winnipeg group that bought the Thrashers only paid $170 million and that was for a franchise with some decent players. Honestly why would you pay ~$500 million for a franchise when there are two or three NHL franchises that seem destined to move in the next 10 years.

Yes, but the income tax is a drag on the ability of the franchise to compete for big time free agents if Quebec were to have a team. I'm not saying the income tax would prevent the award of a franchise, but it does not help the franchise when penciling out its long term viability. Of course, the tax drag could be made up for by the passion and loyalty of the locals to support the team, but then again, maybe not. The income tax drag combined with the Canadian Dollar for international players is a structural handicap for free agent talent. Btw, both Ontario and Quebec have combined fed and provincial income taxes of around 24% to 26% vs 5% for BC and 0% for Alberta.

Canadian tax calculators - Canadian provincial and territorial income tax calculators

 

[IMind]

Yes, but the income tax is a drag on the ability of the franchise to compete for big time free agents if Quebec were to have a team. I'm not saying the income tax would prevent the award of a franchise, but it does not help the franchise when penciling out its long term viability. Of course, the tax drag could be made up for by the passion and loyalty of the locals to support the team, but then again, maybe not. The income tax drag combined with the Canadian Dollar for international players is a structural handicap for free agent talent. Btw, both Ontario and Quebec have combined fed and provincial income taxes of around 24% to 26% vs 5% for BC and 0% for Alberta.

Canadian tax calculators - Canadian provincial and territorial income tax calculators

I agree... I also think the NHL over played there hand (again.) $500 mill for an expansion franchise is just absurd especially considering how relatively inexpensive the Thrashers were. They thought they were going to have 5 or 6 bids... they ended up with essentially 1. No one except Vegas is going to pay that kind of money when the Coyotes are out there stumbling along and you hear rumors about the Devils, Islanders, and now the 'Canes bouncing around.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

Fairfield County was and would also be a Whalers market, easily. If the Whalers came back, they'd likely have to be called the Connecticut Whalers, which is something the Rangers and Bruins would have a problem with.

The NHL moved south to expand the hockey fanbase. They succeeded. The #1 pick in the upcoming draft going to the Maple Leafs (Auston Matthews) is from Arizona and is said to be better than Eichel. He is 10th in the Swiss league (National League A) in scoring and he's 18 years old.

Pretty close to the Truth
The Hartford name killed interest in Hockey hotbeds like New Haven who had their own pro team and s longer tradition .
Hockey had since become huge in Fairfield County also
Connecticut Whalers just could be successful

 

[Waquoit]

The Hartford name killed interest in Hockey hotbeds like New Haven who had their own pro team and s longer tradition .

Sadly, that is just so Connecticut.

 

[Adios]

New Haven's got Yale. So...

They play the Brass Bonanza at Yale hockey games now. Same with QU.

 

[TheDoggPound]

The NHL moved south to expand the hockey fanbase. They succeeded. The #1 pick in the upcoming draft going to the Maple Leafs (Auston Matthews) is from Arizona and is said to be better than Eichel. He is 10th in the Swiss league (National League A) in scoring and he's 18 years old.

There is a flip side to that. That so called success came at the expense of former NHL markets the league vacated. If Hartford had an NHL team I would bet my money that hockey participation rates in Hartford county would be higher than they currently are.

 

[Exit 4]

There is a flip side to that. That so called success came at the expense of former NHL markets the league vacated. If Hartford had an NHL team I would bet my money that hockey participation rates in Hartford county would be higher than they currently are.

Yep, hard to imagine it wouldn't do anything but help HC participation. Bottomline for CT and the return of the Whale, it takes a strong season ticket base, an arena and a corporate base (for the suites). Unfortunately Hartford would fall short on all three metrics. The NHL will continue to try to grow their sport in the south and west, right or wrong, because 10% of their markets is still better than 35% of our market. The only way the NHL returns to Hartford is if a Paul Allen type from CT decides to eat the shortfall and fund a team as a charity.

 

[whaler11]

With the right lease the team could be financially viable.

Of course the building and the lease aren't for whoever owns the building so it's a bit pointless to discuss.

 

[ct06111]

This Friday July 8th 7:00 pm
Bring Back the Whalers Night @ Muzzy Field
FCBL Britsol Blues vs Wachusett Dirt Dawgs
(UConn Commit: pitcher Jacob Wallace is on the Bristol Blues)

Hartford Whalers logo creator Peter Good will be there
Tony Harrington will sing National Anthem
The Zambonis will play pre and post game concert
Bob Joyce and Pucky the Whale will be there

Wear your gear.
Cheap tickets, food, and beer. Had lots of fun last year

 

[TheDoggPound]

Yep, hard to imagine it wouldn't do anything but help HC participation. Bottomline for CT and the return of the Whale, it takes a strong season ticket base, an arena and a corporate base (for the suites). Unfortunately Hartford would fall short on all three metrics. The NHL will continue to try to grow their sport in the south and west, right or wrong, because 10% of their markets is still better than 35% of our market. The only way the NHL returns to Hartford is if a Paul Allen type from CT decides to eat the shortfall and fund a team as a charity.

Hartford and Connecticut have more Fortune 500 companies than 2/3 of the current NHL markets. We have the most disposable income in the country and have no pro sports competition. We also have a plan for an arena produced by the same firm that redid MSG and they happen to write the building standards for the NHL. We need an owner yes, well heeled but I disagree with the rest of your assessment.

 

[Exit 4]

Hartford and Connecticut have more Fortune 500 companies than 2/3 of the current NHL markets. We have the most disposable income in the country and have no pro sports competition. We also have a plan for an arena produced by the same firm that redid MSG and they happen to write the building standards for the NHL. We need an owner yes, well heeled but I disagree with the rest of your assessment.

Fortune 500 list as of 2015 consists of the following for CT: Of this list, I'd say you've got 5-8 suites sold in the bag, the rest wont be easy. The F500 is nice bragging rights, however for many companies below, the # of employees at the HQ is actually very small.

General Electric 3135 Easton Turnpike Fairfield Connecticut 6828 <---not a major employer within 1hr of Hartford....HQ now in Boston. no suites.
United Technologies 1 Financial Plaza Hartford Connecticut 6101 <--winner - probably would buy two or three suites.
Aetna 151 Farmington Ave. Hartford Connecticut 6156 <--poised to consolidate with Cigna....HQ in question. a suite buyer regardless given all the employees.
Cigna 900 Cottage Grove Rd. Bloomfield Connecticut 6002 <--poised to consolidate with AETNA....HQ in question. a suite buyer regardless.
Xerox 45 Glover Ave. Norwalk Connecticut 6850 -73.42821 41.145258 <--small employer in the state - HQ is a very small office. too far.
Hartford Financial Services Gro 1 Hartford Plaza Hartford Connecticut 6155 <--winner
Praxair 39 Old Ridgebury Rd. Danbury Connecticut 6810 -73.531451 41.383056 <--too far from Hartford
Stanley Black & Decker 1000 Stanley Dr. New Britain Connecticut 6053 <--winner
Charter Communications 400 Atlantic St. Stamford Connecticut 6901 <--Stamford office is very small as most are in NYC. too far.
Priceline Group 800 Connecticut Ave. Norwalk Connecticut 6854 <--too far
Terex 200 Nyala Farm Rd. Westport Connecticut 6880 <--too far
W.R. Berkley 475 Steamboat Rd. Greenwich Connecticut 6830 <--too far
EMCOR Group 301 Merritt Seven Norwalk Connecticut 6851 <--too far
Starwood Hotels & Resorts 1 StarPoint Stamford Connecticut 6902 <--too far and moving to Maryland per Marriott buyout.
United Rentals 100 First Stamford Place Stamford Connecticut 6902 <--too far
Harman International Industries 400 Atlantic St. Stamford Connecticut <--too far

One of the problems for CT is that the auto transportation sucks for those in lower FC to get to Hartford. Its just not a fun ride, especially as an after work ride. People south of Fairfield and Ridgefield would much rather head to NYC.
I just don't see selling 15-18k tickets 41 times a year and fetching a real TV rating to boot. Plus, all the whining about UConn ticket prices which are ultra low instills little confidence (in my collection of anecdotal support). The NHL sells a pricey game ticket.

The best hope is to pray for a Paul Allen type to bequeath a pro team to this state. Otherwise I think the financial hurdles for pro sports are just too tall now, even for the #31 DMA. Especially when places like Houston, Seattle and Portland lie for the picking.

Parting thought. It would be hard, but I would quite the Rangers to become a Whaler. I would want the Whale to return. I just don't have a rosy view on the subject. For instance, if I owned a team, I would be all about Houston, Seattle and Portland before CT.

 

[ct06111]

19 Fortune 500s in CT (for now)
Connecticut Has 19 Companies On Fortune 500 List

Even if most are in FC, I would think some would still be interested in buying to entertain clients and their employees. At least buy advertising for themselves @ arena. Mohegan/Foxwoods would buy suites for high rollers and name their own club lounges etc. especially if they join and build a casino in hartford. Also other national companies buying their own Board advertisements etc.

Most suite sales require buying all 41 dates plus ALL other events. I'm sure some would also be interested in all the UConn games played there as well.
A new XL center suite/loge box etc would be cheaper than a Rangers, Bruins, Isles, Devils suite.

Exit, have you read the SCI study about XL renovations that Doggpound is talking about?
Check it out: PDF: Hartford Arena Study For XL Center Renovation / Replacement

I admit, the 13 or so western conference games at home would be tough to sellout. Hawks and maybe a western wknd game or two would sellout. But I'm sure whalers fans from all over would help pack away games. The TV contract alone and packing other places even if the CT locals don't travel well would be better than most 1st generation southern teams. If the whale was a middle of the pack in terms of attendance, merchandise and other HRR (hockey related revenue) that would be less $$ the other ~30 owners would have to give up in terms of revenue sharing. Florida, yotes, Carolina and others gets tons of $ from Leafs, Rangers, Bruins, Hawks owners
Hartford would probably never be a giver in terms of RS and HRR, but not really be a big taker.

$30 for a UConn basketball ticket is more expensive than some nosebleeds at Bruins, isles, and Devils games
In terms of transportation... Metro North to New Haven and take the eventual
New Haven/Hartford/Springfield train to the game. No need to drive...

We need an investment group or just get Ray Bartozek of Greenwich to buy a team here instead of Seattle. I think most don't want to pay for arena and are waiting for CT to pay for it.

 

[TheDoggPound]

Fortune 500 list as of 2015 consists of the following for CT: Of this list, I'd say you've got 5-8 suites sold in the bag, the rest wont be easy. The F500 is nice bragging rights, however for many companies below, the # of employees at the HQ is actually very small.

General Electric 3135 Easton Turnpike Fairfield Connecticut 6828 <---not a major employer within 1hr of Hartford....HQ now in Boston. no suites.
United Technologies 1 Financial Plaza Hartford Connecticut 6101 <--winner - probably would buy two or three suites.
Aetna 151 Farmington Ave. Hartford Connecticut 6156 <--poised to consolidate with Cigna....HQ in question. a suite buyer regardless given all the employees.
Cigna 900 Cottage Grove Rd. Bloomfield Connecticut 6002 <--poised to consolidate with AETNA....HQ in question. a suite buyer regardless.
Xerox 45 Glover Ave. Norwalk Connecticut 6850 -73.42821 41.145258 <--small employer in the state - HQ is a very small office. too far.
Hartford Financial Services Gro 1 Hartford Plaza Hartford Connecticut 6155 <--winner
Praxair 39 Old Ridgebury Rd. Danbury Connecticut 6810 -73.531451 41.383056 <--too far from Hartford
Stanley Black & Decker 1000 Stanley Dr. New Britain Connecticut 6053 <--winner
Charter Communications 400 Atlantic St. Stamford Connecticut 6901 <--Stamford office is very small as most are in NYC. too far.
Priceline Group 800 Connecticut Ave. Norwalk Connecticut 6854 <--too far
Terex 200 Nyala Farm Rd. Westport Connecticut 6880 <--too far
W.R. Berkley 475 Steamboat Rd. Greenwich Connecticut 6830 <--too far
EMCOR Group 301 Merritt Seven Norwalk Connecticut 6851 <--too far
Starwood Hotels & Resorts 1 StarPoint Stamford Connecticut 6902 <--too far and moving to Maryland per Marriott buyout.
United Rentals 100 First Stamford Place Stamford Connecticut 6902 <--too far
Harman International Industries 400 Atlantic St. Stamford Connecticut <--too far

Utah has 1 F500 company and has a sports franchise. Even if you removed all the F500 not in Hfd. county we'd still outpace many current professional sport cities. There's also many smaller firms that buy up / share suites, it's not always behemoth companies. I also didn't go into to much depth because if we were really breaking it down we'd have to look at F1000.

One of the problems for CT is that the auto transportation sucks for those in lower FC to get to Hartford. Its just not a fun ride, especially as an after work ride. People south of Fairfield and Ridgefield would much rather head to NYC.

Light Rail is going into service Jan. 2018 and will service Springfield (Western Mass) & New Haven area: New Haven - Hartford - Springfield Rail Program Fairfield while not inconsequential is on the fringe of the Hartford market. Professional teams market to fans within a <60 mile radius but those fans out there are now able to drive to NH and take the train into Hartford.

I just don't see selling 15-18k tickets 41 times a year and fetching a real TV rating to boot. Plus, all the whining about UConn ticket prices which are ultra low instills little confidence (in my collection of anecdotal support). The NHL sells a pricey game ticket.

Before any puck would ever be dropped we'd have to sell 10-11k ST, if that were to happen selling the rest would be easily accomplished through mini plans, half seasons (if they're offered) and individual tickets. You'd also be able to charge quite a high price for a bevy of games (Canadiens, Bruins, Rangers, etc.) As for the television we are the largest television market without a team and usually have strong ratings for all sports programming. We also have plenty of potential suitors for a TV home unlike Las Vegas. Not saying we'd start a bidding war but we'd have some options and would probably get a decent deal and I think viewership would be good. FYI do you know that late night infomercials have larger audiences then the Coyotes and Panthers avg. games? Sad but true.

The best hope is to pray for a Paul Allen type to bequeath a pro team to this state. Otherwise I think the financial hurdles for pro sports are just too tall now, even for the #31 DMA. Especially when places like Houston, Seattle and Portland lie for the picking.

#30* Higher than San Antonio, Columbus, Kansas City, Salt Lake City, Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Oklahoma City, Memphis, Buffalo, New Orleans, Louisville and Jacksonville.

Once the NHL evens up the conferences I think it'll come down to what city/ies (Carolina, Phoenix, Florida) eventually has to move because that day is inevitable (although some of these markets have 9 lives). If it's Carolina or Florida I think you'll see an EC city take them and if Phoenix needs to relocate vice versa. QC is the WC in the equation because they could always be shoehorned for years into the Central division or their ticket could never get punched even though they look great on paper.

.

Parting thought. It would be hard, but I would quite the Rangers to become a Whaler. I would want the Whale to return. I just don't have a rosy view on the subject.

I respect the heck out of you for that. I grew up in Mass so I became a Bruins fan but am ready to drop them in a heartbeat for a team to call our own no matter how slim a chance it might be. It's not unrealistic, maybe unlikely but not unrealistic.

 

[TheDoggPound]

Yup forgot about the casinos as well, they need to be factored in when talking about corporate support. And like CT mentioned national companies (Dunkin' Donuts comes to mind) they made a commitment with the ballpark, I can't imagine they wouldn't have some type of presence for an NHL team based in Hartford.

 

[TheDoggPound]

We need an investment group or just get Ray Bartozek of Greenwich to buy a team here instead of Seattle. I think most don't want to pay for arena and are waiting for CT to pay for it.

Or Malloys buddy Ray Dalio (14B net worth).

 

[TheDoggPound]

OTish but: SoccerAmerica - TV Report: EPL outdraws NHL in 2015-16 05/19/2016

Hartford #2 market for EPL viewership. I know it's a reach to tie it together but there are examples of us drawing well for NHL out there too.

 

[HartfordHank]

$30 for a UConn basketball ticket is more expensive than some nosebleeds at Bruins, isles, and Devils games

Bruins tickets are more expensive that you think! Loge seats will now range from $88 to $145 (up from $70 to $132 this season) and balcony seats $45 to $98 (compared to $32 to $91).
Bruins increase ticket prices for 2014-15