OT: Whaler fans enjoy a little schadenfreude

[Exit 4]

I've heard Vegas?

I left them off because I thought they are set to get the expansion team. Yes, Vegas moves to the top of the list if no expansion.

 

[ct06111]

Perhaps this has already been covered, but isn't fair to say that the following cities are ahead of Hartford for the NHL?

1) Seattle <--great demographic trends - no basketball competition
2) Hamilton Ont <--to create a mets/yankees rivalry with the leafs
3) Portland <--rapidly growing city
4) Quebac City <--hungrier than Hartford for ice sports
5) Hartford <--difficult to imagine this is really better than the Islanders or Devils current situation

Candidates to relocate:
a) Arizona?
b) Panthers?
c) Hurricanes
d) Devils?
e) Islanders?

1. Seattle is out for now w/ SODO project. City would not allow street to be moved for new arena. No plans for tukwila or other arena project. Key arena is a basketball arena

2. See above post by doggpound. Would have to pay enormous fees to Toronto/Buffalo for impeding on market. Too close to other teams worse than Hartford In terms of mi.. Arena is WAY to old.(like XL). Didn't put in expansion bid. Possible, but I could see US team first.

3. Moda center in Portland. Not sure if NHL ready. Another bball arena. Allen the Owner has had talks about buying yotes a couple of years ago. That fizzled. I could see it maybe, but Seattle was 1st wish in PNW.

4. Quebec has all 3 requirements, but falling CAN $ would cost NHL millions. I think TV deal wouldn't be shared. Have to pay to broadcAst their games in US. Quebecor leader wants to leave Canada and is a pusher to become its own country. MTL would be pissed. Smaller market than Hartford. Franconphone market.

5. It would work with TV $$$, salary cap, revenue sharing,less travel for other teams. Already a hockey market. Market is bigger than 5-6 teams already
Needs owner and arena. Has market.TV deal would be big. May not be a taker in terms of revenue sharing.

A: have no place to play after 2017. Probably won't share arena w/ Suns. Bleeding $. Not a hockey market. Barroway (owner is an east coast guy)
B. Could leave after 2023. BrowArd county gave team 80 million. Have to pay back if leave earlier. Shouldn't have 2 teams in FL. Owner is an NE guy
C: PK is broke. Not a hockey market. It's a multiple college area
D: fans don't like drive to Newark. Owner is loosing $.wants to buy crystal palace football club. But will probably stick around
E: Barclays is bball arena. Nassau will only have 13k seats. Apparently a 5 yr out clause of a 25 yr lease. Both isles or Barclays could use out clause.

Que dumb and dumber meme.

 

[Exit 4]

1. Seattle is out for now w/ SODO project. City would not allow street to be moved for new arena. No plans for tukwila or other arena project. Key arena is a basketball arena

2. See above post by doggpound. Would have to pay enormous fees to Toronto/Buffalo for impeding on market. Too close to other teams worse than Hartford In terms of mi.. Arena is WAY to old.(like XL). Didn't put in expansion bid. Possible, but I could see US team first.

3. Moda center in Portland. Not sure if NHL ready. Another bball arena. Allen the Owner has had talks about buying yotes a couple of years ago. That fizzled. I could see it maybe, but Seattle was 1st wish in PNW.

4. Quebec has all 3 requirements, but falling CAN $ would cost NHL millions. I think TV deal wouldn't be shared. Have to pay to broadcAst their games in US. Quebecor leader wants to leave Canada and is a pusher to become its own country. MTL would be pissed. Smaller market than Hartford. Franconphone market.

5. It would work with TV $$$, salary cap, revenue sharing,less travel for other teams. Already a hockey market. Market is bigger than 5-6 teams already
Needs owner and arena. Has market.TV deal would be big. May not be a taker in terms of revenue sharing.

A: have no place to play after 2017. Probably won't share arena w/ Suns. Bleeding $. Not a hockey market. Barroway (owner is an east coast guy)
B. Could leave after 2023. BrowArd county gave team 80 million. Have to pay back if leave earlier. Shouldn't have 2 teams in FL. Owner is an NE guy
C: PK is broke. Not a hockey market. It's a multiple college area
D: fans don't like drive to Newark. Owner is loosing $.wants to buy crystal palace football club. But will probably stick around
E: Barclays is bball arena. Nassau will only have 13k seats. Apparently a 5 yr out clause of a 25 yr lease. Both isles or Barclays could use out clause.

Que dumb and dumber meme.

I just think its crazy to push Hartford up on this list. Unlike UConn, the Whale cannot bet on NYC as the 6th borough. Its Seattle, Portland, Salt Lake, Hamilton or some other larger market...even if its sunbelt. Need bodies for all those home games.

 

[Exit 4]

Fascinating population projections in the linked report from 2012 to 2042. See page 110 of the link below. Since this prepared before we were surprised by central Connecticut's recent population declines, the same analysis today might produce even less favorable results.

Seattle screams major hockey opportunity. Sure an arena maybe a dead concept today, but give it another business cycle or two and someone will assemble something that works. The potential for a financial home run in Seattle with the NHL is pretty high.

http://usmayors.org/metroeconomies/0712/FullReport.pdf

And I know its blasphemy, but with Texas so hot right now and loaded with cash and positive economic vibes, I could see a team getting a new arena in Austin, San Antonio or Houston. Hockey in the sun belt hasn't been a home run, but neither is it in the rust belt. I think owners will give select sunbelt cities another go in the years ahead. The markets are just so huge.

 

[ct06111]

Oh without a doubt, The NHL wants Seattle. Seattle city council was going to give 200 million for a new arena if the supersonics returned, but the MOU was for bball only, not bball/hockey Walker gave a bunch of $ to the Bucks, so they're staying in Milwaukee. Plus the whole steet thing didn't work out. Seattle govt is a huge pain to work with. Ray barotozek ( rich hedge fund guy from CT) was proposing the tukwila site( suburb of Seattle), but couldn't find other $$$ backers. I think NHL wants downtown arenas not suburbs. See Glendale, Calgary, Florida, etc. (another plus for the XL)

Seattle will happen.
As for Houston. Jermey Jacobs of the Bruins and head of BOG wants Houston badly. Hates idea of Quebec. He's sorta warm to Hartford cause of travel and an excuse to raise Bruins ticket prices, but won't admit it publicly

But Houston won't happen because the rockets owner (les Alexander) hates hockey and won't allow bball and hockey in his arena

Vegas will be expansion(500 million) defer for a year or two and Seattle/Portland will get a team once they open up expansion again. 500 million for a niche sport is insane. 14 cities were handed expansion paperwork and only 2 replied. Hard to make only 2 cities fight over each other where they were expecting 4 or 5 cities to compete. Quebec MAY get a relocation if PK is that desperate for cash.

June 22nd is when they will potentially make an announcement on expansion
It bothers me how navigate research (the company involved with big12 expansion was also involved with NHL expansion)

 

[TheDoggPound]

- NHL wants Seattle - Seattle wants NBA | (no new arena on horizon for at least 4-5 years)

- Jacobs (head of relocation committee) like CT said covets Houston but Les Alexander (owner of Rockets) is extremely cool on the idea of sharing the building with another tenant.

- Portland is a distinct possibility, Moda Center is NHL-ready facility but Paul Allen (owner of the Trail Blazers) only wants a relocation on the cheap or he's not interested + it's been bandied about that the NHL thinks moving a team to Seattle alone could deliver entire PNW which likely diminishes POR appeal to the league.

- Salt Lake City's arena is approaching 30 years old and that market is smaller and less robust than Hartford county in regards to population, TV sets, disposable income and corporate presence. Plus it would be tough for any smaller market to support two winter sports.

- Quebec City is a slam dunk; Owner, Market & Building.

- Las Vegas; Owner, Building, Market? They claimed the ST drive went well but I hold some doubts due to irregularities with the process.

- Hamilton unfortunately will not have a chance until either a. current NBC deal expires b. NHL expands past 32. Then there are the issues with indemnification and whether the Sabres and Maple Leafs would actually sign off.

Kansas City has a building and it's one of the most profitable in the country, bringing in an NHL tenant would hurt the bottom line instead of helping.

Milwaukee will have a building but again would be a struggle for a smaller market to support two winter sports (although they probably would prefer NHL to NBA if they had the choice)

That's about it but unless you want to include Austin, San Antonio, Louisville, Virginia possibly or Atlanta2

 

[Exit 4]

Oh without a doubt, The NHL wants Seattle. Seattle city council was going to give 200 million for a new arena if the supersonics returned, but the MOU was for bball only, not bball/hockey Walker gave a bunch of $ to the Bucks, so they're staying in Milwaukee. Plus the whole steet thing didn't work out. Seattle govt is a huge pain to work with. Ray barotozek ( rich hedge fund guy from CT) was proposing the tukwila site( suburb of Seattle), but couldn't find other $$$ backers. I think NHL wants downtown arenas not suburbs. See Glendale, Calgary, Florida, etc. (another plus for the XL)

Seattle will happen.
As for Houston. Jermey Jacobs of the Bruins and head of BOG wants Houston badly. Hates idea of Quebec. He's sorta warm to Hartford cause of travel and an excuse to raise Bruins ticket prices, but won't admit it publicly

But Houston won't happen because the rockets owner (les Alexander) hates hockey and won't allow bball and hockey in his arena

Vegas will be expansion(500 million) defer for a year or two and Seattle/Portland will get a team once they open up expansion again. 500 million for a niche sport is insane. 14 cities were handed expansion paperwork and only 2 replied. Hard to make only 2 cities fight over each other where they were expecting 4 or 5 cities to compete. Quebec MAY get a relocation if PK is that desperate for cash.

June 22nd is when they will potentially make an announcement on expansion
It bothers me how navigate research (the company involved with big12 expansion was also involved with NHL expansion)

I applaud you for your knowledge on the subject. Cool beans. I don't want to be a downer on Hartford...just trying to be objective about it.

 

[Palatine]

Hartford has a stagnate population, is bleeding jobs and corporate HQ are moving out of the city and state. They need to fix that problem first before they are a viable expansion candidate.

 

[Exit 4]

Hartford has a stagnate population, is bleeding jobs and corporate HQ are moving out of the city and state. They need to fix that problem first before they are a viable expansion candidate.

I think these demographic and economic negative trends definitely play a role in this discussion. If they were pointing up (in a material way), I'd be more optimistic.

 

[ct06111]

Hartford has a stagnate population, is bleeding jobs and corporate HQ are moving out of the city and state. They need to fix that problem first before they are a viable expansion candidate.

Hartford would and should never be considered for a "expansion"' candidate.
Too expensive and the Team would SUCK for 4-5 years and be filled with rejects from other teams due to expansion draft.

Hartford chances are by relocation only.

edit: I know there was an Article posted about kids leaving to bigger cities and not enough stuff to do in Hartford as the reason. NHL and a rebuilt XL is part of the answer. Kids would stay if we were a major league city again. Make that ballpark AAA Red Sox would help also. Let Larry luchchinno swoop in, buy out Solomon, and be in charge of the development around the park. Have tribes rebuild the XL and put a casino in the basement.

I know I'm not helping, but I don't want this turning into cesspool material and end up bashing the market, So I hope it can stay somewhat about Hartford hockey and it chances. Plus more making fun of karmanos $ problems . That is always fun. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

 

[huskypantz]

The Hartford of the future will need to be part of an effort to build CT as a whole. UConn needs to drive intelligent capital, help push job growth (appears to be happening with tech park). Stamford, New Haven need to be hubs and share in the CT theme. Change policies to recruit businesses - use your god-given gift (ie between NY and Boston).

 

[ct06111]

Nice article in Greenwich Free Press from a high schooler about the return of the whale

The Case for a Hartford Whalers Comeback

 

[uconnphil2016]

Perhaps this has already been covered, but isn't fair to say that the following cities are ahead of Hartford for the NHL?

1) Seattle <--great demographic trends - no basketball competition
2) Hamilton Ont <--to create a mets/yankees rivalry with the leafs
3) Portland <--rapidly growing city
4) Quebac City <--hungrier than Hartford for ice sports
5) Hartford <--difficult to imagine this is really better than the Islanders or Devils current situation

Candidates to relocate:
a) Arizona?
b) Panthers?
c) Hurricanes
d) Devils?
e) Islanders?

Vegas at #1. Pretty sure it's confirmed that they're putting an expansion team in Vegas already. Weird how Vegas can get a team but Quebec City can't...

 

[uconnphil2016]

The Hartford of the future will need to be part of an effort to build CT as a whole. UConn needs to drive intelligent capital, help push job growth (appears to be happening with tech park). Stamford, New Haven need to be hubs and share in the CT theme. Change policies to recruit businesses - use your god-given gift (ie between NY and Boston).

I just moved from Hartford area to New Haven and it's like night and day. I knew that Hartford was dead even while I was there, but after having experienced living in a new place, it's really remarkable how little there is to do in Hartford, especially for people in their 20s

 

[ZOOCONN]

I just moved from Hartford area to New Haven and it's like night and day. I knew that Hartford was dead even while I was there, but after having experienced living in a new place, it's really remarkable how little there is to do in Hartford, especially for people in their 20s

My friend just moved down to hew haven and he loves it, so many different things for you to do.

 

[Exit 4]

Vegas at #1. Pretty sure it's confirmed that they're putting an expansion team in Vegas already. Weird how Vegas can get a team but Quebec City can't...

Yep. Apparently the gyrations of the Canadian Dollar and Quebac's very high income tax rate (50%?) create a real disadvantage on any NHL team competing for free agent talent.

 

[Palatine]

The Hartford of the future will need to be part of an effort to build CT as a whole. UConn needs to drive intelligent capital, help push job growth (appears to be happening with tech park). Stamford, New Haven need to be hubs and share in the CT theme. Change policies to recruit businesses - use your god-given gift (ie between NY and Boston).

Love Hartford but good luck.

 

[IMind]

Yep. Apparently the gyrations of the Canadian Dollar and Quebac's very high income tax rate (50%?) create a real disadvantage on any NHL team competing for free agent talent.

I think the income tax is over stated as a reason. I just think the relative weakness of the Canadian dollar right now makes the actual cost of an expansion franchise just too much. Basically your paying 120-130% the price that anyone else is. They basically would have to pay ~$600 million Canadaian for a team with zero assets just to start. The Winnipeg group that bought the Thrashers only paid $170 million and that was for a franchise with some decent players. Honestly why would you pay ~$500 million for a franchise when there are two or three NHL franchises that seem destined to move in the next 10 years.

 

[Exit 4]

I think the income tax is over stated as a reason. I just think the relative weakness of the Canadian dollar right now makes the actual cost of an expansion franchise just too much. Basically your paying 120-130% the price that anyone else is. They basically would have to pay ~$600 million Canadaian for a team with zero assets just to start. The Winnipeg group that bought the Thrashers only paid $170 million and that was for a franchise with some decent players. Honestly why would you pay ~$500 million for a franchise when there are two or three NHL franchises that seem destined to move in the next 10 years.

Yes, but the income tax is a drag on the ability of the franchise to compete for big time free agents if Quebec were to have a team. I'm not saying the income tax would prevent the award of a franchise, but it does not help the franchise when penciling out its long term viability. Of course, the tax drag could be made up for by the passion and loyalty of the locals to support the team, but then again, maybe not. The income tax drag combined with the Canadian Dollar for international players is a structural handicap for free agent talent. Btw, both Ontario and Quebec have combined fed and provincial income taxes of around 24% to 26% vs 5% for BC and 0% for Alberta.

Canadian tax calculators - Canadian provincial and territorial income tax calculators

 

[IMind]

Yes, but the income tax is a drag on the ability of the franchise to compete for big time free agents if Quebec were to have a team. I'm not saying the income tax would prevent the award of a franchise, but it does not help the franchise when penciling out its long term viability. Of course, the tax drag could be made up for by the passion and loyalty of the locals to support the team, but then again, maybe not. The income tax drag combined with the Canadian Dollar for international players is a structural handicap for free agent talent. Btw, both Ontario and Quebec have combined fed and provincial income taxes of around 24% to 26% vs 5% for BC and 0% for Alberta.

Canadian tax calculators - Canadian provincial and territorial income tax calculators

I agree... I also think the NHL over played there hand (again.) $500 mill for an expansion franchise is just absurd especially considering how relatively inexpensive the Thrashers were. They thought they were going to have 5 or 6 bids... they ended up with essentially 1. No one except Vegas is going to pay that kind of money when the Coyotes are out there stumbling along and you hear rumors about the Devils, Islanders, and now the 'Canes bouncing around.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

Fairfield County was and would also be a Whalers market, easily. If the Whalers came back, they'd likely have to be called the Connecticut Whalers, which is something the Rangers and Bruins would have a problem with.

The NHL moved south to expand the hockey fanbase. They succeeded. The #1 pick in the upcoming draft going to the Maple Leafs (Auston Matthews) is from Arizona and is said to be better than Eichel. He is 10th in the Swiss league (National League A) in scoring and he's 18 years old.

Pretty close to the Truth
The Hartford name killed interest in Hockey hotbeds like New Haven who had their own pro team and s longer tradition .
Hockey had since become huge in Fairfield County also
Connecticut Whalers just could be successful

 

[Waquoit]

The Hartford name killed interest in Hockey hotbeds like New Haven who had their own pro team and s longer tradition .

Sadly, that is just so Connecticut.

 

[Adios]

New Haven's got Yale. So...

They play the Brass Bonanza at Yale hockey games now. Same with QU.

 

[TheDoggPound]

The NHL moved south to expand the hockey fanbase. They succeeded. The #1 pick in the upcoming draft going to the Maple Leafs (Auston Matthews) is from Arizona and is said to be better than Eichel. He is 10th in the Swiss league (National League A) in scoring and he's 18 years old.

There is a flip side to that. That so called success came at the expense of former NHL markets the league vacated. If Hartford had an NHL team I would bet my money that hockey participation rates in Hartford county would be higher than they currently are.

 

[Exit 4]

There is a flip side to that. That so called success came at the expense of former NHL markets the league vacated. If Hartford had an NHL team I would bet my money that hockey participation rates in Hartford county would be higher than they currently are.

Yep, hard to imagine it wouldn't do anything but help HC participation. Bottomline for CT and the return of the Whale, it takes a strong season ticket base, an arena and a corporate base (for the suites). Unfortunately Hartford would fall short on all three metrics. The NHL will continue to try to grow their sport in the south and west, right or wrong, because 10% of their markets is still better than 35% of our market. The only way the NHL returns to Hartford is if a Paul Allen type from CT decides to eat the shortfall and fund a team as a charity.