OT: Vin Baker shoots for success in Starbucks management

[TasteofUConn]

Trump went bankrupt 4 times . . . .

Not so. Guy had ownership/controlling interest in 4 companies that filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy restructuring. Saying "he" went bankrupt is not accurate. I don't support the guy, and I think the fact that he is getting so much support is a very clear indication that we, as a country, are heading into troubled waters. But to say that "he" went bankrupt is inaccurate and irresponsible, because it implies a personal failure of finances, when what it really is is normal in the business world. Many businesspeople don't succeed on their first attempt, and the higher the possible gain, usually, the higher the risk of failure. The Paypal guy had several failed businesses prior to Paypal.
If anything, Trump's business history, including the four business ventures that ended in chapter 11, can be used as a model for young entrepreneurs about how venture capital/business start up/chapter 11/cycle works. Trump has a net worth of over 2 billion dollars. He got there by trying and failing and succeeding, and the people who financed him - and lost in the chapter 11s - clearly thought the guy had the ability to make them money, which he may have in his successful ventures.
Regarding athletes going broke, I do creditor/debtor/bankruptcy work. The one thing that all the debtors have in common is an inability to live within their means. Does that sound simple? I mean this - it's never a question of how much they earn - it's always a question of how much they spend. Whether they're making 8 bucks an hour or 8 million a year, if they don't have the basic restraint to spend within their means, then they will end up with nothing when the high tide money flow dries up (lottery or athlete, the same). I see people making 40k a year who buy 35,000 dollar vehicles. For the athlete, who grew up in poverty, never had to manage money, is enamored with a bling-bling lifestyle, and has a short earnings time line, financial disaster is likely, and you're not going to talk him out of it.
Our culture is one that encourages living beyond your means. We're born into it, and the people making the interest on the overspending are up our assess from the time we're old enough to watch a commercial to ensure the continuance and worsening of the culture. And it's gotten noticeably worse in my lifetime.
This demagogue Trump with his overt xenophobia and calls for war is being harangued because some of his business ventures failed and filed for bankruptcy? Our country is 18 trillion in debt, and, including SS and Medicaid obligations, is bankrupt. At least he has applicable experience.

 

[David 76]

Not so. Guy had ownership/controlling interest in 4 companies that filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy restructuring. Saying "he" went bankrupt is not accurate. I don't support the guy, and I think the fact that he is getting so much support is a very clear indication that we, as a country, are heading into troubled waters. But to say that "he" went bankrupt is inaccurate and irresponsible, because it implies a personal failure of finances, when what it really is is normal in the business world. Many businesspeople don't succeed on their first attempt, and the higher the possible gain, usually, the higher the risk of failure. The Paypal guy had several failed businesses prior to Paypal.
If anything, Trump's business history, including the four business ventures that ended in chapter 11, can be used as a model for young entrepreneurs about how venture capital/business start up/chapter 11/cycle works. Trump has a net worth of over 2 billion dollars. He got there by trying and failing and succeeding, and the people who financed him - and lost in the chapter 11s - clearly thought the guy had the ability to make them money, which he may have in his successful ventures.
Regarding athletes going broke, I do creditor/debtor/bankruptcy work. The one thing that all the debtors have in common is an inability to live within their means.

Thanks for clarifying. I was inadvertently spreading inaccurate info. Please tell me, when a corp. files chapter 11, is it only their investors who take a hit? What about the construction companies, food providers and other vendors that did business with the corp. but was not "gambling" on its success.

 

[TasteofUConn]

Thanks for clarifying. I was inadvertently spreading inaccurate info. Please tell me, when a corp. files chapter 11, is it only their investors who take a hit? What about the construction companies, food providers and other vendors that did business with the corp. but was not "gambling" on its success.

No need to be nasty.
The entire point of "corporation," and it's modern hybrid child "LLC," is to insulate the personal assets of its stockholders and employees. When any construction company, food provider, or other vendor deals with a corporation or LLC, they know this. Further, virtually every construction company dealing with a Trump-type venture is going to also be a corporation. Even for mom and pop outfits, however, any time you are dealing with a corporation and you don't either get your money paid up front, you're taking a risk. That's just part of doing business, and that cost is factored into the price of goods and services. It's not personal - it's the way business is done.
Surely every construction company, food provider, and other vendor, that you mention, had the ability, capacity, and choice to do a credit check on the whatever company they were dealing with prior to rending goods or services. Extremely easy, and very cheap. Further, each of those entities had the option to deal with or not deal with whatever company they chose to. Nobody made they conduct business with a failing entity.
Personal example - had a company that had emerged from Chapter 11 (cost me some money) continue to use my services. About 2 years after the 1st chapter 11, I got a letter saying that they were going to start paying every 90 days, rather than every 60 days. I wrote back - "I need to get paid every 2 weeks or let me know where you want me to send the files."
Business is business. Absent fraud, there is nothing unusual, wrong, immoral, or otherwise condemnable about a business failing.

 

[David 76]

Nasty?
I thanked you and asked a serious question. But it sounds like it is a lot more than venture capitalists who get hurt in these corporate bankruptcies. I was honestly asking because you made it sound like only investors got hurt.
My father and each of my brothers have been tiny construction businesses that had to figure out how to feed their families when smart businessmen had declared bankruptcy. While they were trying to survive, the smart guys continued to live a great lifestyle then repeated the process over and over. Someone was always naive or desperate enough to do work for them.

I understand it is the law. But it is a form of government sanctioned corporate irresponsibility when it is repeated. Or, business as usual. Not the forum for this conversation so I will stop. But it never fails to amaze me that an example of one person abusing food stamps bothers people more than a guy who brags that he is worth $8 billion after leaving a wake of people unpaid for services and goods they provided.

 

[intlzncster]

Nasty?
I thanked you and asked a serious question. But it sounds like it is a lot more than venture capitalists who get hurt in these corporate bankruptcies. I was honestly asking because you made it sound like only investors got hurt.
My father and each of my brothers have been tiny construction businesses that had to figure out how to feed their families when smart businessmen had declared bankruptcy. While they were trying to survive, the smart guys continued to live a great lifestyle then repeated the process over and over. Someone was always naive or desperate enough to do work for them.

I understand it is the law. But it is a form of government sanctioned corporate irresponsibility when it is repeated. Or, business as usual. Not the forum for this conversation so I will stop. But it never fails to amaze me that an example of one person abusing food stamps bothers people more than a guy who brags that he is worth $8 billion after leaving a wake of people unpaid for services and goods they provided.

Yeah, you couldn't have been nicer. Scratching my head.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Not so. Guy had ownership/controlling interest in 4 companies that filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy restructuring. Saying "he" went bankrupt is not accurate. I don't support the guy, and I think the fact that he is getting so much support is a very clear indication that we, as a country, are heading into troubled waters. But to say that "he" went bankrupt is inaccurate and irresponsible, because it implies a personal failure of finances, when what it really is is normal in the business world. Many businesspeople don't succeed on their first attempt, and the higher the possible gain, usually, the higher the risk of failure. The Paypal guy had several failed businesses prior to Paypal.
If anything, Trump's business history, including the four business ventures that ended in chapter 11, can be used as a model for young entrepreneurs about how venture capital/business start up/chapter 11/cycle works. Trump has a net worth of over 2 billion dollars. He got there by trying and failing and succeeding, and the people who financed him - and lost in the chapter 11s - clearly thought the guy had the ability to make them money, which he may have in his successful ventures.

This is an incredibly charitable gloss of Trump's business career and it's a bit strange to say that he provides a "model for young entrepreneurs." It was pretty well known that he himself was the guarantor on a significant portion of the financing for the Taj Mahal which is why he carried close to a billion dollars of (personal) obligations into the 90s. That was the deal where he got some schmuck analyst fired for predicting that the Taj would go under in its first year and then, lo and behold, bankruptcy for the holidays. He lost about $100M of his own money when the Hotel/Casino entity filed for BK about ten years ago.

If by the PayPal guy you mean Elon Musk, he sold his first company for $300M.

 

[intlzncster]

This is an incredibly charitable gloss of Trump's business career and it's a bit strange to say that he provides a "model for young entrepreneurs." It was pretty well known that he himself was the guarantor on a significant portion of the financing for the Taj Mahal which is why he carried close to a billion dollars of (personal) obligations into the 90s. That was the deal where he got some schmuck analyst fired for predicting that the Taj would go under in its first year and then, lo and behold, bankruptcy for the holidays. He lost about $100M of his own money when the Hotel/Casino entity filed for BK about ten years ago.

If by the PayPal guy you mean Elon Musk, he sold his first company for $300M.

And Elon Musk actually makes (useful) stuff. Paypal, Tesla, Space X, SolarCity....The guy's innovative in a variety of industries. Complete opposite of Trump.

 

[J187Money]

I've often thought that setting up a cash management arrangement for NBA rookies would be a lucrative cottage industry that would help to eliminate the horror stories we all too often hear about. Good on Vin for getting life together. I wish him the best of luck.

Like the hundreds of others that have tried that. Can't make money at it without having a lot of them. Can't get them without connections. They won't trust you either.

 

[TasteofUConn]

Nasty? . . . I was honestly asking because you made it sound like only investors got hurt.

Hey man - Sorry that I misread your post. It sure sounded like a rhetorical question to me (what about these other folks? huh? What about THEM?)! Apologies.

Someone was always naive or desperate enough to do work for them.

I think we just have radically different world views.
What you describe as "naive or desperate" I would be more likely to describe as "didn't take the time to learn up on basic business practice" and "made bad decisions that left fewer options."

But it is a form of government sanctioned corporate irresponsibility when it is repeated.

The U.S. bankruptcy system is considered by many to be the best on the planet. It functions extremely well. It does exactly what it is supposed to do. These guys aren't trying to go out of business - they're trying to make money.
I'd be curious to hear your suggestion as to what should be done. The fact is, the bankruptcy rules are well known and well understood. They have been the same for a very long time. Everybody who has taken 10 minutes to research the issue understands - if you're not getting your money up front, you might not get paid if the counter party goes bankrupt.

. . . after leaving a wake of people unpaid for services and goods they provided.

Again, nobody made these people do business with anybody else. They had the option and the ability to demand information from the business with which they were engaged, and ask for money up front, quicker payments, or whatever.

 

[TasteofUConn]

And Elon Musk actually makes (useful) stuff. Paypal,. . .

Just to be clear, Musk was with a company that acquired/merged with paypal, which was founded by others. His contribution was to change the name, focus on it, and go IPO.
On a completely irrelevant side note, I absolutely loathe PayPal and I can't wait for it to be dead. I used to like Ebay - a long time ago. Then they altered the feedback, failed to allow sellers to block low feedback/newbee buyers, eliminated alternative payment arrangements, and forced paypal. I avoid it like slug slime.

 

[intlzncster]

Just to be clear, Musk was with a company that acquired/merged with paypal, which was founded by others. His contribution was to change the name, focus on it, and go IPO.
On a completely irrelevant side note, I absolutely loathe PayPal and I can't wait for it to be dead. I used to like Ebay - a long time ago. Then they altered the feedback, failed to allow sellers to block low feedback/newbee buyers, eliminated alternative payment arrangements, and forced paypal. I avoid it like slug slime.

I like it. I can pay people all around the world and they can pay me. Free and clear. That said, from a merchant/business perspective, it sucks. Hard.

The U.S. bankruptcy system is considered by many to be the best on the planet. It functions extremely well. It does exactly what it is supposed to do. These guys aren't trying to go out of business - they're trying to make money.
I'd be curious to hear your suggestion as to what should be done. The fact is, the bankruptcy rules are well known and well understood. They have been the same for a very long time. Everybody who has taken 10 minutes to research the issue understands - if you're not getting your money up front, you might not get paid if the counter party goes bankrupt.

You're speaking of corporate/business bankruptcy, right? Because the personal bankruptcy system in the US isn't great by western standards. eg In 3 years, your credit is wiped clean in Australia. In the UK, you are discharged from bankruptcy after 12 months.

 

[David 76]

For a little business example, my brother was a little 2-4 person masonry contractor.Developer builds houses and uses my brother for fireplaces. My brother buys stone , cement, scaffolding,pays his workers. Halfway into the build the builder goes bankrupt and say he has payed for 3 0f the eight fireplaces and my brother is stuck for the next 5. The developer is actually selling off the houses with my brother's materials and unpaid work in them. Brother would not fail to pay his workers and suppliers. He is broke and having a tough time.
The developer protects their personal wealth, spends the winter somewhere warm and next spring he has a new corporation. Now if he works with him again, shame on my brother. But how is my brother supposed to know this builder (or others) are going to go bankrupt? They certainly don't tell him. They have 5 more houses they want to sell.. He and my father weren't corporate businessmen, they were tradesmen who believed you went w/o to make sure you paid your debts. Or, what "good" businessmen would call fools.

If an individual does this it is irresponsible. If a person behind a corporation does it, it is considered smart. Twisted ethics. You think people like Trump should reimburse people that took a hit? Personally, would you do it? Why not take big risk after big risk until you hit it big if you less responsibility when you miss. Like going to the casino, betting huge with only partial responsibility if you lose and full pot if you win.

I think it is ironic that you called me irresponsible for stating Trump went bankrupt (I agree I was wrong-see your first post) but you see no irresponsibility on the part of a multi-billionaire being allowed to have his responsibility dismissed by the court 4 times. I know it is the law, iI know it is standard business practice. But it is not responsible.

 

[TasteofUConn]

. . . the personal bankruptcy system in the US isn't great by western standards. eg In 3 years, your credit is wiped clean in Australia. In the UK, you are discharged from bankruptcy after 12 months.

In the U.S., from filing date to discharge is usually about 4 months. Your "credit" thereafter is not part of the bankruptcy process or system. Your credit in the U.S. is determined by the market, not by artificial laws. In any event, most people coming out of bankruptcy have immediate access to credit and are a much better credit risk than the year leading up to the filing, quite contrary to the common belief that your credit will be hurt by filing chapter 7. Quite the opposite - if you're anywhere near filing chapter 7, your credit is already garbage - filing and ditching the debt gives creditors a hard on for you when you get out.

 

[TasteofUConn]

For a little business example, my brother was a little 2-4 person masonry contractor.Developer builds houses and uses my brother for fireplaces. My brother buys stone , cement, scaffolding,pays his workers. Halfway into the build the builder goes bankrupt and say he has payed for 3 0f the eight fireplaces and my brother is stuck for the next 5.

This is our different world view.
Your brother could have easily gotten a credit report for the developer.
He also could have gotten a personal guarantee on the cost.
If those were too esoteric, he could have simply asked for the money for materials up front.
Or, he could have asked to be be paid weekly for all materials and labor so that he never had too much hanging out there.

Your view is along the lines of - "he was screwed over, there's nothing he could have done, the developer is the bad guy."
My view is along the lines of - "he made his choices, he was unwise, and the developer was a bad guy."
But here's the thing. We're 50 years past "my word is my bond." Any reasonable person should take reasonable steps to protect himself or herself from bad guys. I don't agree that "I expected him to do the right thing and pay me" is an excuse for being incautious. And I don't agree with the "humble laborer" versus "devilish developer" dichotomy.

The problem is that there are too many people who don't take the very little time it would take to educate themselves before jumping in. Literally a few hours on the Internet and you can figure out what your exposure is doing business with an "Inc." or a "Corp."
If you spend a few weeks or months doing research, you can develop a good feel as to how to avoid getting screwed on big deals. But people don't. The put their heads in the sand, don't take the time to understand the basic business world they are working in, and then, when things don't work out, they claim that an unscrupulous person screwed them over and don't acknowledge their own complicity.

 

[Fishy]

For a little business example, my brother was a little 2-4 person masonry contractor.Developer builds houses and uses my brother for fireplaces. My brother buys stone , cement, scaffolding,pays his workers. Halfway into the build the builder goes bankrupt and say he has payed for 3 0f the eight fireplaces and my brother is stuck for the next 5. The developer is actually selling off the houses with my brother's materials and unpaid work in them. Brother would not fail to pay his workers and suppliers. He is broke and having a tough time.

Your brother needs to start running his business like a business - good God, slap a mechanic's lien on the property.

 

[David 76]

Oh, of course he learned his lesson and moved on.. And when he ran into this there was no internet.

Taste, I don't think you know my "world view". There are a laborers and great developers and business people. But if you don't think people like Donald Trump have lobbyists, lawyers and accountants to help them pass legislation, find loopholes and to help them work the system to their best advantage, then you are the naive one, not me.
Little guys don't have those advantages. You keep explaining how the system works. I get it. But I'm saying the system is tilted because the Trumps of the world help write the laws you live inside.
We disagree, It is OK.We still have the Huskies!