OT: UNC Academic Fraud Investigation

[SubbaBub]

No use talking to someone who is blinded by homerism. I do think JoePa is criminally liable in this situation. They lacked the proof to go forward with charges, but that hardly makes him innocent.

I'll make one attempt to educate you. Take it or not. Any accusation of this nature is highly sensitive for obvious reasons. If a witness, third hand or otherwise, makes the accused aware of the investigation or otherwise makes this information public, then the ability of law enforcement to convict the accused is highly compromised. The accused might get wind of the investigation and start to destroy evidence or run for it.

According to PA state law, Joe reported the incident to a duly designated law enforcement official. His part, whatever you wanted it to be aside, was over.

This is the law, and as Icebear points out now the official policy of the NCAA. Focus whatever interests you about this topic toward learning the facts, because most of what was reported was deeply flawed if not outright false.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Those who can do, those who can't teach, those who can't teach become guidance counselors! Remember that one? Well, there is a lot of truth to that ( and it does a terrible injustice to committed, talented teachers I know). Well, it has one step missing. Those who can't fake guidance counseling become administrators. All along that chain the instinct for self preservation goes up. The self preservation instincts at Penn State were highly developed and only partly exposed in the multiple investigations. Then, of course, we can go on to the NCAA, which is essentially a bunch of administrators who could not survived in the most protected sinecure of American employment - the sports side of a college/university (I do not include coaching in that statement - ref. administration ).

 

[pap49cba]

Hatchell speaks... Says she was unaware... LINK

 

[j66kicker]

Hatchell speaks... Says she was unaware... LINK

Either covering up or clueless - neither looks too good.

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

Either covering up or clueless - neither looks too good.

I've always thought Sylvia seemed rather clueless. It will be interesting to see where everything ends up with this situation at UNC.

 

[CL82]

I'll make one attempt to educate you. Take it or not. Any accusation of this nature is highly sensitive for obvious reasons. If a witness, third hand or otherwise, makes the accused aware of the investigation or otherwise makes this information public, then the ability of law enforcement to convict the accused is highly compromised. The accused might get wind of the investigation and start to destroy evidence or run for it.

According to PA state law, Joe reported the incident to a duly designated law enforcement official. His part, whatever you wanted it to be aside, was over.

This is the law, and as Icebear points out now the official policy of the NCAA. Focus whatever interests you about this topic toward learning the facts, because most of what was reported was deeply flawed if not outright false.

So you are saying he had not further legal duty. Okay, I'll accept that, at least for the purpose of this discussion. But JoePa held enormous influence on campus and certainly over football facilities. He was aware of Sandusky's access to and position of influence over vulnerable children through Second Mile Foundation. Would you say that he moral duty under those circumstances to make sure those kids weren't at risk?

 

[HoopsFan21]

So you are saying he had not further legal duty. Okay, I'll accept that, at least for the purpose of this discussion. But JoePa held enormous influence on campus and certainly over football facilities. He was aware of Sandusky's access to and position of influence over vulnerable children through Second Mile Foundation. Would you say that he moral duty under those circumstances to make sure those kids weren't at risk?

I don't think Paterno had as much power as everyone seems to think. For example, when Sandusky retired, he did not want Sandusky to bring Second Mile kids into the gym, but was overruled. Paterno did not want the new baseball stadium built near the football stadium, and was overruled. Paterno did not want anything to do with the Big Ten Network, and was overruled. There are apparently countless decisions big and small made by the school that Paterno objected to, and for someone that supposedly wielded tremendous power as we were told by the media, he seemed rather powerless over things involving his own program and facilities. Regarding the moral obligation, as Ice explained above, there is a protocol that needs to be followed to protect the victim, accused, and the investigation. I assume this is why Paterno's first move was to check the University's policies. The laws seem counter-intuitive to us laypeople that aren't mandatory reporters, but most states seem to have something similar on the books when it comes to reporting child abuse. If people are upset by this, they should write their congressman, not blame a football coach. Also, for those that keep saying Paterno escaped criminal charges because he died, even the lead prosecutor in the case said they found no evidence that Paterno had attempted to cover anything up. I believe I saw it in an interview on 60 Minutes earlier this year.

 

[CL82]

. Regarding the moral obligation, as Ice explained above, there is a protocol that needs to be followed to protect the victim, accused, and the investigation.

Ice was talking about the legal duty if you are aware of possible abuse. That is a different standard. Sometimes doing the legal minimum is enough. Sometimes it isn't. I submit that when an accused child rapist has access to particularly vulnerable children might well be one of the times when the absolute minimum to avoid individual prosecution isn't enough.

 

[HoopsFan21]

Ice was talking about the legal duty if you are aware of possible abuse. That is a different standard. Sometimes doing the legal minimum is enough. Sometimes it isn't. I submit that when an accused child rapist has access to particularly vulnerable children might well be one of the times when the absolute minimum to avoid individual prosecution isn't enough.

So what exactly did you want him to do? He put McQueary in touch with who he was supposed to. He checked with McQueary later about it to make sure he was OK with how it was dealt with. If I'm Paterno at that point, having not witnessed anything first hand, I'm of the mind that it was handled or is being handled appropriately by those charged with dealing with such situations. Furthermore, given McQueary's friendliness towards Sandusky after supposedly witnessing him rape a child in the shower tells me he probably never actually saw such a thing and just misinterpreted what was ultimately horse play which also explains why the school administrators all say that is what McQueary described to them.

 

[Icebear]

Ice was talking about the legal duty if you are aware of possible abuse. That is a different standard. Sometimes doing the legal minimum is enough. Sometimes it isn't. I submit that when an accused child rapist has access to particularly vulnerable children might well be one of the times when the absolute minimum to avoid individual prosecution isn't enough.

Your assumption is he didn't follow up which is wrong. He followed up with the authorities to whom he reported it and was told the investigation was proceeding. Sandusky was not convicted of anything, had never been charged with anything. Joe did his job others not so much.

 

[CL82]

Your assumption is he didn't follow up which is wrong. He followed up with the authorities to whom he reported it and was told the investigation was proceeding. Sandusky was not convicted of anything, had never been charged with anything. Joe did his job others not so much.

Joe did his job, met the legal minimum to avoid prosecution. I think that sums up how people feel about the Icebear. People expected more of Paterno both because he was a larger than life figure and because they hope they'd have found the courage to do more.

 

[CL82]

So what exactly did you want him to do? He put McQueary in touch with who he was supposed to. He checked with McQueary later about it to make sure he was OK with how it was dealt with. If I'm Paterno at that point, having not witnessed anything first hand, I'm of the mind that it was handled or is being handled appropriately by those charged with dealing with such situations. Furthermore, given McQueary's friendliness towards Sandusky after supposedly witnessing him rape a child in the shower tells me he probably never actually saw such a thing and just misinterpreted what was ultimately horse play which also explains why the school administrators all say that is what McQueary described to them.

So you are saying that McQueary lied to Paterno and that no rape took place. Does Sandusky's eventual convict make you least bit uncomfortable with that assumption?

 

[HoopsFan21]

So you are saying that McQueary lied to Paterno and that no rape took place. Does Sandusky's eventual convict make you least bit uncomfortable with that assumption?

Sandusky was acquitted of the rape charge in that incident, so obviously the jury felt he didn't see a rape either. McQueary said he never told Paterno it was a rape out of respect for the coach, and instead described it as something sexual. Yeah, he was still convicted of other charges in that incident because Sandusky was showering with a child, but the way it was made out at the time was that Paterno witnessed a kid being raped and made sure it was covered up. Very few people know this, but the weekend after the grand jury presentment was leaked, Paterno was actually praised for doing the right thing. Look it up. Journalists that slammed him days later, wrote articles in a much different tone when the story first broke on that Friday afternoon. It wasn't until after that weekend's CFB games that ESPN made it their #1 story and really whipped everyone up into a frenzy. Probably made for good ratings during an otherwise quiet time. By the way, it is a crime to leak a grand jury presentment, and you can easily see why. Do you honestly believe Sandusky got a fair trial with jurors that were not tainted by a raging public opinion that had months to stew over that grand jury presentment and all of its gory details (grand juries convened to decide on indictments are one-sided by nature as there is no cross examination)? Sandusky was also represented by the equivalent of the public defender from My Cousin Vinny, and any delays the defense asked for were denied. Amazing that a guy with nearly 50 counts could be tried and convicted so quickly, and in many of the charges there was not even a complainant! How long was that trial to decide if Roger Clemens lied about using steroids again?

I'm not picking on you here, but I want you, or anyone else for that matter, to describe exactly what you would have done if faced with the same situation and information that Paterno had at the time. Remember, you don't know Sandusky is a pedophile, and you're getting a second hand report that's pretty outrageous and is about someone with whom you're not best friends with but you've known for decades. I'm being honest with saying that I probably wouldn't have done any more than Paterno did. A lot of people cast stones but can't seem to bring themselves to admit that they also wouldn't have done more than just report it up the chain and let those trained to handle such situations handle it.

 

[Icebear]

Joe did his job, met the legal minimum to avoid prosecution. I think that sums up how people feel about the Icebear. People expected more of Paterno both because he was a larger than life figure and because they hope they'd have found the courage to do more.

You realize if he did more he could have been prosecuted for obstruction of justice. That is the exact point made to mandated reporters in our training. How was he to know the situation wasn't resolved without any charges because the report was discovered to be without basis. If he took personal action without basis he would be open to litigation for defamation. It wasn't about a lack of courage for Joe but rather there are realities within which we function. Without having been an eye witness how was he to discern for himself the validity or emptiness of McQueary's fuzzy report. Joe put it in the hands of the professionals. Be angry at them but as to Joe your assumptions are just that assumptions and no basis for any expectations that Joe should have done more. As to others' thoughts about me what does that have to do with the price of tea in China.

 

[Icebear]

So you are saying that McQueary lied to Paterno and that no rape took place. Does Sandusky's eventual convict make you least bit uncomfortable with that assumption?

He never said to Paterno that a rape was taking place. To suggest that is to participate in myth making.

 

[HoopsFan21]

You realize if he did more he could have been prosecuted for obstruction of justice. That is the exact point made to mandated reporters in our training. How was he to know the situation wasn't resolved without any charges because the report was discovered to be without basis. If he took personal action without basis he would be open to litigation for defamation. It wasn't about a lack of courage for Joe but rather there are realities within which we function. Without having been an eye witness how was he to discern for himself the validity or emptiness of McQueary's fuzzy report. Joe put it in the hands of the professionals. Be angry at them but as to Joe your assumptions are just that assumptions and no basis for any expectations that Joe should have done more. As to others thought about me what does that have to do with the price of tea in China.

Ice, the problem is everyone in 2011 assumed Paterno in 2001 knew about 1998 and everything that occurred after the 2001 shower incident. Unless Paterno had a DeLorean that allowed one to time travel if they drove it at 88 mph, this was an isolated report in his mind AT THE TIME. Hindsight is 20/20, but we all know Paterno did not have 20/20 vision what with those signature thick glasses he wore!

 

[Icebear]

Ice, the problem is everyone in 2011 assumed Paterno in 2001 knew about 1998 and everything that occurred after the 2001 shower incident. Unless Paterno had a DeLorean that allowed one to time travel if they drove it at 88 mph, this was an isolated report in his mind AT THE TIME. Hindsight is 20/20, but we all know Paterno did not have 20/20 vision what with those signature thick glasses he wore!

Exactly, life is lived in real time not by what we might have known. If one wants to look for the place where moral courage was needed it was when Gricar made the decision to not prosecute nor even convene a Grand Jury on those original charges. If the case had been brought forward at least the public would have been aware and families could have taken defensive action. As it was the case died in his office and never became public and Sandusky continued to prey on kids at Second Mile.

In addition, McQueary has now stated that he himself was s e xually abused which I asserted was very likely when the topic first hit this board because his behavior was consistent with that profile. LINK

 

[CL82]

You realize if he did more he could have been prosecuted for obstruction of justice. Depends on who he contacted and exactly what he did doesn't it? That is the exact point made to mandated reporters in our training. How was he to know the situation wasn't resolved without any charges because the report was discovered to be without basis. He couldn't, because no action to follow up. If he took personal action without basis he would be open to litigation for defamation. Depends on who he contacted and exactly what he did doesn't it? It wasn't about a lack of courage for Joe but rather there are realities within which we function. Actually that's merely speculation, or perhaps wishful thinking. Regardless, I haven't accused Paterno of a lack of personal courage. That would be speculation on my part. Without having been an eye witness how was he to discern for himself the validity or emptiness of McQueary's fuzzy report. By following up with the police, and not just a university administrator? Joe put it in the hands of the professionals. Debatable didn't he just contact an administrator? Be angry at them I'm not angry but as to Joe your assumptions are just that assumptions and no basis for any expectations that Joe should have done more. I don't think I made assumptions I just pointed out why there is a legitimate basis for people to disappointed in Paterno. I think you have, wanting to see the best in him. As to others' thoughts about me what does that have to do with the price of tea in China. I don't think I said anything about other peoples thoughts of you. I'm not a big fan of personal attacks in lieu of reasoned discussion.

 

[CL82]

Exactly, life is lived in real time not by what we might have known. If one wants to look for the place where moral courage was needed it was when Gricar made the decision to not prosecute nor even convene a Grand Jury on those original charges. If the case had been brought forward at least the public would have been aware and families could have taken defensive action. As it was the case died in his office and never became public and Sandusky continued to prey on kids at Second Mile.

In addition, McQueary has now stated that he himself was s e xually abused which I asserted was very likely when the topic first hit this board because his behavior was consistent with that profile. LINK

Didn't know the McQueary was abused. How sad. Why do you think it is relevant?

Regarding your notion that plenty of people in this matter lacked personal courage, I think we can agree upon that. There are always reasons why doing the right thing is difficult. We can only hope and pray that when each of tested that we find the courage to find and listen to the better angels of nature.

 

[HoopsFan21]

Didn't know the McQueary was abused. How sad. Why do you think it is relevant?

Regarding your notion that plenty of people in this matter lacked personal courage, I think we can agree upon that. There are always reasons why doing the right thing is difficult. We can only hope and pray that when each of tested that we find the courage to find and listen to the better angels of nature.

Forget all that. I just wanna hear what Joe Paterno should have done differently. We're talking about destroying a man's reputation, plus a school's reputation, for being squeaky clean.

 

[SWHuskyFan]

For being squeaky clean? Are you kidding? It was to protect children from a rapist under there employment. We're not talking about a little NCAA infraction. This is a person's life. He acted cowardly in not passing on the info to the police. It doesn't take as much courage as you're implying.

 

[Bayareahusky]

although i am a joe fan, i think one thing he could have done over the years was work together in concert with his administration when encountering a discipline problem within his program. he always wanted full control of those situations.....

and when he was told by mcqueary about the shower incident and he reported it to his superior, I understand that

 

[Bayareahusky]

(and you can correct me if this is wrong) that he made a call to this same person after contemplation and made the recommendation to keep things "in-house"

 

[Icebear]

For being squeaky clean? Are you kidding? It was to protect children from a rapist under there employment. We're not talking about a little NCAA infraction. This is a person's life. He acted cowardly in not passing on the info to the police. It doesn't take as much courage as you're implying.

No, such thing was done.

 

[Icebear]

Thus you make my argument for me. Everything you want to base your demands of Joe on is only a guess. You don't conduct yourself professionally in that manner.