OT - The value of a Kentucky Degree | The Boneyard

OT - The value of a Kentucky Degree

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I think we all know that academics are pretty much meaningless in the ACC overall, except for perhaps a minority of its members like Wake, Duke, and Virginia. For an athlete, going to the pros from Kentucky will probably carry more weight then going from Wake in basketball. Simple as that.
 

formerlurker

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I think we all know that academics are pretty much meaningless in the ACC overall, except for perhaps a minority of its members like Wake, Duke, and Virginia. For an athlete, going to the pros from Kentucky will probably carry more weight then going from Wake in basketball. Simple as that.
Well....I don't know about what basketball players do at these schools, and UNC has had their issues (to say the least!) but in addition to the schools you mentioned BC, UNC, Georgia Tech and ND are all great schools. And Clemson, Miami and Pitt are no slouches. I don't like the ACC but you can't lie, the academics in that conference are pretty good.

 
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And this intellectual giant (Olivier Sarr) used the old fallback of "I love Wake Forest, I'll always be a Deacon, and they took me in when I couldn't speak English very well and was a skinny kid, B....U....T, Coach Cal gets guys in the league and does a great job with big men so I'm out of here."
 

Fishy

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I don’t think the kid cares whose name is on his degree if he even cares about the degree in the first place.

He’s trying to get a job as a basketball player and the degree doesn’t matter a bit.

But he’s also kidding himself if he thinks Kentucky is a better stage to get to the NBA than Wake Forest....NBA scouts will find you at a community college, a foreign country or the moon. Calipari doesn’t make great players, he finds them and convinces them to spend seven months in Kentucky.
 

olehead

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Forbes is talking trash and hasn't even unpacked his bags. Everybody's a promoter.
 
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I don’t think the kid cares whose name is on his degree if he even cares about the degree in the first place.

He’s trying to get a job as a basketball player and the degree doesn’t matter a bit.

But he’s also kidding himself if he thinks Kentucky is a better stage to get to the NBA than Wake Forest....NBA scouts will find you at a community college, a foreign country or the moon. Calipari doesn’t make great players, he finds them and convinces them to spend seven months in Kentucky.
He's probably more concerned with being on a team that'll win games this year.
 

Huskyforlife

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I don’t think the kid cares whose name is on his degree if he even cares about the degree in the first place.

He’s trying to get a job as a basketball player and the degree doesn’t matter a bit.

But he’s also kidding himself if he thinks Kentucky is a better stage to get to the NBA than Wake Forest....NBA scouts will find you at a community college, a foreign country or the moon. Calipari doesn’t make great players, he finds them and convinces them to spend seven months in Kentucky.
You aren't wrong, but the additional exposure helps with their brands. Also scouts won't have to go out of their way to watch Wake play, when instead he'll get extra looks while they scout the 5 stars as well.
 
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I don’t think the kid cares whose name is on his degree if he even cares about the degree in the first place.

He’s trying to get a job as a basketball player and the degree doesn’t matter a bit.

But he’s also kidding himself if he thinks Kentucky is a better stage to get to the NBA than Wake Forest....NBA scouts will find you at a community college, a foreign country or the moon. Calipari doesn’t make great players, he finds them and convinces them to spend seven months in Kentucky.

I don't disagree with you... BUT

He absolutely will get more exposure, more NBA teams knowing in depth about him, and ultimately a higher draft slot.

There are some dudes that wouldn't have even been drafted if they were on a team different than Kentucky.

Also, the degree thing.

If you went to a school that isn't Ivy League, Duke, Stanford, Notre Dame or Cal Tech, you're just like everyone else.

Paid way too damn much for a piece of paper that doesn't separate you enough from your peers, regardless of profession.
 

Chin Diesel

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Well....I don't know about what basketball players do at these schools, and UNC has had their issues (to say the least!) but in addition to the schools you mentioned BC, UNC, Georgia Tech and ND are all great schools. And Clemson, Miami and Pitt are no slouches. I don't like the ACC but you can't lie, the academics in that conference are pretty good.


Not that I consider the USNWR the be all end all of college rankings, but even FSU has jumped ahead of UConn the past few years (Tie for #57 for FSU vice #64 for UConn).
 
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Not that I consider the USNWR the be all end all of college rankings, but even FSU has jumped ahead of UConn the past few years (Tie for #57 for FSU vice #64 for UConn).
Those rankings take into account some fairly irrelevant things and the numbers are misleading. For example, the way they calculate things doesn't mean it's a better education or the students are smarter. In fact schools get a bump if they have less accomplished incoming freshmen with similar graduation rates to another university with more academically accomplished freshmen from high school. That could just means the classes are much easier at the school with less intelligent and successful kids, so those kids can pass with not much effort. However, the school with less academically accomplished students gets a higher score in that category.
"Graduation rate performance: We compared each college's actual six-year graduation rate with what we predicted for its fall 2012 entering class. The predicted rates were modeled from admissions data, proportion of undergraduates awarded Pell Grants, school financial resources, proportion of federal financial aid recipients who are first generation, and National Universities' math and science, or STEM, orientations.
The first-generation students variable was new for the 2020 rankings and in effect gives schools more credit for their graduation rates when accomplished with higher proportions of students who were the first in their immediate families to attend college. The data was sourced from the U.S. Department of Education's College Scorecard. Its inclusion improved the model's predictive power.
Social mobility: Measures how well schools graduated students who received federal Pell Grants (those typically coming from households whose family incomes are less than $50,000 annually, though most Pell Grant money goes to students with a total family income below $20,000). New for the 2020 edition, data sourced from the federal government was used for nonresponders. Also, the below factors (weighted 2.5% each) were computed using two-year averages of fall 2011 and fall 2012 entering cohorts.
  • Pell Grant graduation rates are the six-year graduation rates of Pell Grant students adjusted to give much more credit to schools with larger Pell student proportions.
  • Pell Grant graduation rate performance is the factor that compares each school's six-year graduation rate among Pell recipients with its six-year graduation rate among non-Pell recipients by dividing the former into the latter, then adjusting to give much more credit to schools with larger Pell student proportions. The higher a school's Pell graduation rate relative to its non-Pell graduation rate up to the rates being equal, the better it scores.
U.S. News published a distinct social mobility ranking for all schools. The social mobility ranking is computed from the two ranking factors assessing graduation rates of Pell-awarded students (5% of the rankings total)."
 
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Chin Diesel

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Those rankings take into account some fairly irrelevant things and the numbers are misleading. For example, the way they calculate things doesn't mean it's a better education or the students are smarter. In fact schools get a bump if they have less accomplished incoming freshmen with similar graduation rates to another university with more academically accomplished freshmen from high school. That could just means the classes are much easier at the school with less intelligent and successful kids, so those kids can pass with not much effort. However, the school with less academically accomplished students gets a higher score in that category.
"Graduation rate performance: We compared each college's actual six-year graduation rate with what we predicted for its fall 2012 entering class. The predicted rates were modeled from admissions data, proportion of undergraduates awarded Pell Grants, school financial resources, proportion of federal financial aid recipients who are first generation, and National Universities' math and science, or STEM, orientations.
The first-generation students variable was new for the 2020 rankings and in effect gives schools more credit for their graduation rates when accomplished with higher proportions of students who were the first in their immediate families to attend college. The data was sourced from the U.S. Department of Education's College Scorecard. Its inclusion improved the model's predictive power.
Social mobility: Measures how well schools graduated students who received federal Pell Grants (those typically coming from households whose family incomes are less than $50,000 annually, though most Pell Grant money goes to students with a total family income below $20,000). New for the 2020 edition, data sourced from the federal government was used for nonresponders. Also, the below factors (weighted 2.5% each) were computed using two-year averages of fall 2011 and fall 2012 entering cohorts.
  • Pell Grant graduation rates are the six-year graduation rates of Pell Grant students adjusted to give much more credit to schools with larger Pell student proportions.
  • Pell Grant graduation rate performance is the factor that compares each school's six-year graduation rate among Pell recipients with its six-year graduation rate among non-Pell recipients by dividing the former into the latter, then adjusting to give much more credit to schools with larger Pell student proportions. The higher a school's Pell graduation rate relative to its non-Pell graduation rate up to the rates being equal, the better it scores.
U.S. News published a distinct social mobility ranking for all schools. The social mobility ranking is computed from the two ranking factors assessing graduation rates of Pell-awarded students (5% of the rankings total)."

I wouldn't refer to numbers showing a university demonstrates its education brings students towards prosperity as being irrelevant or misleading.
I think these are very good numbers to look at for many lower income students to have information knowing which institutions produce results.
 
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The bottom line is financial issues are going to hammer UConn in rankings right now. We all knew it was coming. That said, and I say it from experience, an average CT kid is getting a better public education than an average Florida kid. In the end, UConn probably has the brighter student body overall but you’ve got to fund it to keep the rankings.
 
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I wouldn't refer to numbers showing a university demonstrates its education brings students towards prosperity as being irrelevant or misleading.
I think these are very good numbers to look at for many lower income students to have information knowing which institutions produce results.

You are assuming causation here. You can show correlation, but not causation. Again, university X may produce higher graduation rates than university Y for a particular factor or group of people, but there are many variables affecting this. Ex. selection process for admission may vary by demographic group. Therefore, if it's more difficult to get accepted to uconn as an asian male than any other group, then asian males will likely have the best grades on average. But that doesn't mean it's easier for asian males to succeed at uconn or that uconn is doing a better job of educating them. It just means they are likely more intelligent on average because there was a more selective process for them to get admitted. On the flip side, if being a certain race and gender helps a person get into school, then the academic success of that group will be below average due to being less intelligent on average. Once SAT scores and highschool academic record are factored in, then all demographic groups have essentially the same drop out rates, graduation rates, academic success etc. But since demographics are taken into account for admissions at many schools, then you see a spread of results that is not equal between groups of different races, genders, first generation etc. Uconn and other schools spend millions of dollars per year on salaries of people trying to figure out why students of different backgrounds vary in success, but almost all of the differences in outcomes are due to the fact that the schools discriminate in admissions and therefore different groups of students are not the same on average and will experience different dropout rates and academic success etc. It's politically incorrect to say this so people dont talk about it and the university keeps pumping money into trying to figure out a solution to a problem they could fix by simply blindly looking at things like high school academic success instead of demographic information. They can do what they want in admissions, but don't spend millions of dollars on administrator's salaries pretending to try to find a solution to a problem that they created and already know how to fix.
Without taking into account many factors, then weighting a decision about where to attend school based on something very specific like the average success of people who are like me in a particular way is probably not wise and should not be weighted in US news and world report to rank a school. Focusing on reputation of the school, which companies recruit from the school, which grad schools people get accepted to from the school etc are going to be better indicators of which school to attend IMO.
 

Chin Diesel

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You are assuming causation here. You can show correlation, but not causation. Again, university X may produce higher graduation rates than university Y for a particular factor or group of people, but there are many variables affecting this. Ex. selection process for admission may vary by demographic group. Therefore, if it's more difficult to get accepted to uconn as an asian male than any other group, then asian males will likely have the best grades on average. But that doesn't mean it's easier for asian males to succeed at uconn or that uconn is doing a better job of educating them. It just means they are likely more intelligent on average because there was a more selective process for them to get admitted. On the flip side, if being a certain race and gender helps a person get into school, then the academic success of that group will be below average due to being less intelligent on average. Once SAT scores and highschool academic record are factored in, then all demographic groups have essentially the same drop out rates, graduation rates, academic success etc. But since demographics are taken into account for admissions at many schools, then you see a spread of results that is not equal between groups of different races, genders, first generation etc. Uconn and other schools spend millions of dollars per year on salaries of people trying to figure out why students of different backgrounds vary in success, but almost all of the differences in outcomes are due to the fact that the schools discriminate in admissions and therefore different groups of students are not the same on average and will experience different dropout rates and academic success etc. It's politically incorrect to say this so people dont talk about it and the university keeps pumping money into trying to figure out a solution to a problem they could fix by simply blindly looking at things like high school academic success instead of demographic information. They can do what they want in admissions, but don't spend millions of dollars on administrator's salaries pretending to try to find a solution to a problem that they created and already know how to fix.
Without taking into account many factors, then weighting a decision about where to attend school based on something very specific like the average success of people who are like me in a particular way is probably not wise and should not be weighted in US news and world report to rank a school. Focusing on reputation of the school, which companies recruit from the school, which grad schools people get accepted to from the school etc are going to be better indicators of which school to attend IMO.


You're overthinking this. If a school admits less prepared students, graduates them and they go on to start earning decent money, the school has done its job.
If another school admits more prepared students and graduates them at the same rate, it isn't doing better. It's following the same graph, just started at a higher point.

And that is assuming the first school has less academic standards and the second is higher. Good luck proving that outside about 25-30 schools.

My first comment included me stating I don't put full faith in the USNWR rankings. It's one of many data points a prospective student should look at before choosing a school.
 
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I don't disagree with you... BUT

He absolutely will get more exposure, more NBA teams knowing in depth about him, and ultimately a higher draft slot.

There are some dudes that wouldn't have even been drafted if they were on a team different than Kentucky.

Also, the degree thing.

If you went to a school that isn't Ivy League, Duke, Stanford, Notre Dame or Cal Tech, you're just like everyone else.

Paid way too damn much for a piece of paper that doesn't separate you enough from your peers, regardless of profession.


ND??
 

Chin Diesel

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ND??

Going back to the US News rankings, ND is a top 20 national university. And like it or not, there's an instant name recognition from every employer and their alumni network is pretty stout. Opens up more doors than most.
 
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You're overthinking this. If a school admits less prepared students, graduates them and they go on to start earning decent money, the school has done its job.
If another school admits more prepared students and graduates them at the same rate, it isn't doing better. It's following the same graph, just started at a higher point.

And that is assuming the first school has less academic standards and the second is higher. Good luck proving that outside about 25-30 schools.

My first comment included me stating I don't put full faith in the USNWR rankings. It's one of many data points a prospective student should look at before choosing a school.
You're overthinking this. If a school admits less prepared students, graduates them and they go on to start earning decent money, the school has done its job.
If another school admits more prepared students and graduates them at the same rate, it isn't doing better. It's following the same graph, just started at a higher point.

And that is assuming the first school has less academic standards and the second is higher. Good luck proving that outside about 25-30 schools.

My first comment included me stating I don't put full faith in the USNWR rankings. It's one of many data points a prospective student should look at before choosing a school.

I wasn't saying you are wrong in all cases. We are on the same side here. I was just suggesting that the inclusion of certain categories shouldn't be used if there is insufficient data to back it up and that the weighting should favor certain categories over others. We can agree on this I think. How we interpret the results is up to the individual. I mentioned categories I would weight highest if trying to achieve significant career success. However, if the goal is to simply graduate and get any sort of decent paying job, then graduation rate is extremely important and things like reputation of the school or graduate school placement rates are much less important. Their choice of school depends on the goal of the college student. A student who wants to go to dental school or work on wallstreet will not pick a college for the same reasons as someone who wants to be a middle school teacher or accountant.
 

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