OT: The game is Just too Rough

[WiseWillie]

Love the Detroit Pistons in the good ole brawl days

Love the Detroit Pistons in the good ole brawl days.

Oh boy. That brings back memories of the Pistons, the Bad Boys of the NBA.

They certainly could mix it up but the one I still remember the most was Isiah "Zeke" Thomas who led the Pistons. He was one of the greatest PG's but no one bumped, pushed or bodied him because they knew his teammates made it known that is something that they did not tolerate on the "little general" and would be quick to reciprocate. Maybe the Wings need to duplicate.

 

[Scud49]

I so fondly remember the early 80's and the incredible "wars" the Celtics had with the 76ers. Amazing physical basketball- no eye pokes or intentional acts of hurtful aggression, just wicked tough defense by everyone and the refs just "let em play".

 

[cancontent]

Oh boy. That brings back memories of the Pistons, the Bad Boys of the NBA.

They certainly could mix it up but the one I still remember the most was Isiah "Zeke" Thomas who led the Pistons. He was one of the greatest PG's but no one bumped, pushed or bodied him because they knew his teammates made it known that is something that they did not tolerate on the "little general" and would be quick to reciprocate. Maybe the Wings need to duplicate.

I don't recall the Bad Boy's "tap tap" mentality being that way with respect to Isaiah Thomas. To me, they established that level of physicality to go up against the likes of the Celtics and Lakers and gain a mental advantage. It carried over into their dominance of the Bulls until the Bulls figured out how to win the physicality battle themselves.

 

[YKCornelius]

So there are two aspects of "the game is too rough" from my perch. The first is the aspect of hard fouls, bigs banging against bigs, tough screens, - the stuff that Tina says is getting softer than what it used to be. For me, that aspect of "physicality" is not an issue of concern.

The second aspect, which is a concern for me and has been stated or alluded to in other posts, is the grabbing/holding/pushing/blocking by defensive players without the ball - i.e., the denial of movement. (This is not to be confused with the denial of space which is what bigs correctly try to do to each other when close to the basket.) These tactics are just bad basketball - doesn't matter if it is WNBA, FIBA, college, AAU, or pick-up games at Rucker Park.

If the WNBA sent out a memo for the second half of the season saying denial of movement tactics will be a point of emphasis going forward, this nonsense would be curbed within two games.

 

[cancontent]

So there are two aspects of "the game is too rough" from my perch. The first is the aspect of hard fouls, bigs banging against bigs, tough screens, - the stuff that Tina says is getting softer than what it used to be. For me, that aspect of "physicality" is not an issue of concern.

The second aspect, which is a concern for me and has been stated or alluded to in other posts, is the grabbing/holding/pushing/blocking by defensive players without the ball - i.e., the denial of movement. (This is not to be confused with the denial of space which is what bigs correctly try to do to each other when close to the basket.) These tactics are just bad basketball - doesn't matter if it is WNBA, FIBA, college, AAU, or pick-up games at Rucker Park.

If the WNBA sent out a memo for the second half of the season saying denial of movement tactics will be a point of emphasis going forward, this nonsense would be curbed within two games.

Denial/freedom of movement was supposed to be an area of focus for the season from the start. Announcers like Debbie Antonelli have been talking about it for most of the season. If it hasn't caught on now, not sure if a memo midway through the season will have any impact.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

Genuine question as FIBA rules are what we follow in Canada from age 13 and up. If it's the international standard, what is the specific difference with respect to physicality that's problematic when compared to the rules followed in the US at the NCAAW and WNBA level?

cancontent- - IMHO it always seemed that FIBA/Olympic WBB was a rougher, way more physical brand of BB than what was allowed in the USA!
I might be wrong but overseas more physical action was permitted! That's why foreign players had a learning period to tone down their physicality to a USA level!
Now the powers-that-be are allowing USA style WBB to be a more physical brand!
I personally don't mind some physical play as they are competing for the BB, but it seems the holding, pushing, tripping, running over, is allowed by American WBB refs! And since the refs are totally incompetent it turns into a war to the death, not BB!
Look at the black & blue marks on players arms to tell how hard they are getting hit and grabbed!
Just my opinion, for what it's worth!

 

[YKCornelius]

Denial/freedom of movement was supposed to be an area of focus for the season from the start. Announcers like Debbie Antonelli have been talking about it for most of the season. If it hasn't caught on now, not sure if a memo midway through the season will have any impact.

Cancontent, good point.

In that case, rather than go out to the teams/coaches and players, perhaps the memo should be internal to the refs with some behavior shaping incentives as part of the communique? Behavior modification has to be with the referees first and foremost - calling fouls on the more egregious freedom of movement violations will, in turn, get the players' quick compliance.

I would contend that the "denial of movement" tactics aren't anywhere near as prevalent at the college level. When they occur they are called. I would also contend that they are learned at the pro level - possibly even being taught. So, if it is learned, it can be unlearned.

 

[JellyBean]

Tina said the league is softer now. She specifically mentioned a ton of post players and power forwards from her "era" as big powerful players you had to bang against night in and night out.

I kept trying to "read between the lines" from what she was saying, but couldn't really find anything. She was pretty clear. The league has gotten softer. Remember back when Lambier was the coach of Detroit? Cheryl Ford? She was a beast playing for a coach who loved being overly physical in the NBA. The entire Shock team was brutal.

People keep talking about the physicality of defenders, but 2 players come to mind regarding physicality on offense - Reese and Boston - both of them will often get the ball far-ish away from the basket, slam the defender repeatedly to get closer to the basket, then whine when no foul is called on the defender. But overall I tend to agree with Tina.

Not just Detroit being physical. You had Sacramento touching you up. Ruthie Bolton was a tough guard and she was solid. Throw in Yolanda Griffith in the paint. Throw in Phoenix with Michele Timms and Jennifer Gillom. The WNBA was physical back in the day. A lot of these players in this current game are soft. They like to flop around, which they can hurt themselves.

 

[cancontent]

cancontent- - IMHO it always seemed that FIBA/Olympic WBB was a rougher, way more physical brand of BB than what was allowed in the USA!
I might be wrong but overseas more physical action was permitted! That's why foreign players had a learning period to tone down their physicality to a USA level!
Now the powers-that-be are allowing USA style WBB to be a more physical brand!
I personally don't mind some physical play as they are competing for the BB, but it seems the holding, pushing, tripping, running over, is allowed by American WBB refs! And since the refs are totally incompetent it turns into a war to the death, not BB!
Look at the black & blue marks on players arms to tell how hard they are getting hit and grabbed!
Just my opinion, for what it's worth!

Thanks for your reply, but this doesn't help me better understand things at all because this is based on opinion. Yes there are differences with respect to physicality, but it's not free for all brawl that some posts imply. Sometimes I think if WNBA referees made the calls they should, it would be closer to the FIBA style of games I'm familiar with.

When I was a teenager in the 90s, Canada used Federation rules for the most part too. The powers that be decided to use FIBA rules instead and didn't see the transition being counterproductive or dangerous to development, even at the youth level. Considering the US dominates at every level, including FIBA, what prevents the US from adopting FIBA rules outright? This is a rhetorical question, because I realize there will never be a clear answer, but it's one I consider from time to time when I see complaints about FIBA rules.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Can't think of her name, Atlanta had a big tough post, I think she was Brazilian. Not that long ago, played along side McCoughtry. That woman scared me. She was just mean.

edit--Erika de Souza

 

[cancontent]

Can't think of her name, Atlanta had a big tough post, I think she was Brazilian. Not that long ago, played along side McCoughtry. That woman scared me. She was just mean.

edit--Erika de Souza

A legend in international basketball for Brazil who played in her last Olympics in Paris I believe. Definitely a tough customer but seemed to be well respected from what I've observed.

 

[Pharos]

Tina said the league is softer now. She specifically mentioned a ton of post players and power forwards from her "era" as big powerful players you had to bang against night in and night out.

I kept trying to "read between the lines" from what she was saying, but couldn't really find anything. She was pretty clear. The league has gotten softer. Remember back when Lambier was the coach of Detroit? Cheryl Ford? She was a beast playing for a coach who loved being overly physical in the NBA. The entire Shock team was brutal.

People keep talking about the physicality of defenders, but 2 players come to mind regarding physicality on offense - Reese and Boston - both of them will often get the ball far-ish away from the basket, slam the defender repeatedly to get closer to the basket, then whine when no foul is called on the defender. But overall I tend to agree with Tina.

"Slam the defender repeatedly..." this is the #1 image I have when "too rough" is talked about. How is that basketball? How is that not a charging foul? Call the fouls! And watch ballhandlers. Their off-hand is always waving around fending off the hands of defenders. What happened to reaching-in fouls?

 

[Cuango]

cancontent- - IMHO it always seemed that FIBA/Olympic WBB was a rougher, way more physical brand of BB than what was allowed in the USA!
I might be wrong but overseas more physical action was permitted! That's why foreign players had a learning period to tone down their physicality to a USA level!
Now the powers-that-be are allowing USA style WBB to be a more physical brand!
I personally don't mind some physical play as they are competing for the BB, but it seems the holding, pushing, tripping, running over, is allowed by American WBB refs! And since the refs are totally incompetent it turns into a war to the death, not BB!
Look at the black & blue marks on players arms to tell how hard they are getting hit and grabbed!
Just my opinion, for what it's worth!

The W has allowed the game to become waay too physical for sure but this pales in comparison to their biggest fault. The referees are simply a disgrace! I’ve never seen anything like it! They are so bad, so inconsistent, and yet the Ieague seems to do nothing! Players, especially one player in particular, can absolutely get mugged right in front of them and they simply ignore it! Rebecca Lobo pointed this out a couple of games ago (and of course is now being criticized for it) I’m at a complete loss as to why the league is tolerating this. It is not just one player but rather leaguewide! You would think they would want to protect their players, weed out the bad eggs, and promote a more free flowing and more entertaining brand of basketball!

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

The W has allowed the game to become waay too physical for sure but this pales in comparison to their biggest fault. The referees are simply a disgrace! I’ve never seen anything like it! They are so bad, so inconsistent, and yet the Ieague seems to do nothing! Players, especially one player in particular, can absolutely get mugged right in front of them and they simply ignore it! Rebecca Lobo pointed this out a couple of games ago (and of course is now being criticized for it) I’m at a complete loss as to why the league is tolerating this. It is not just one player but rather leaguewide! You would think they would want to protect their players, weed out the bad eggs, and promote a more free flowing and more entertaining brand of basketball!

Cuango- - - Yes you're 100% right!
I've been saying this for years!
It doesn't matter what "points of interest" or rule changes the league puts in the refs are incompetent to do their jobs! And it's so apparent to everyone that it's almost laughable!
The League and retired refs (their peers) are evaluating them so nothing gets resolved!
They can't weed out the bad eggs as you stated, because it's ALL of them! Totally incompetent!
It's both NCAA and WNBA refs and (if possible) it's getting worse!
Some star player will get seriously hurt then all H--ll will let loose!

 

[oldude]

The W is evolving with bigger, stronger and more athletic players, and the overall play has gotten more physical. The problem isn’t just about the refs. The W needs to change their style of play the same way the NBA changed when physical play threatened to undermine the league.

Many of us are old enough to remember “The Punch,” a brutal punch to the face of Rudy Tomjanovich by Kermit Washington that ended Rudy T’s career. While it was the worst incident of violence in NBA history, it was hardly an isolated one.

The NBA changed the rules on contact while adding fines and suspensions to curb physical play. The refs called the games tighter for a time until a more free flowing, open style of play took over. The W needs a similar evolution that would have the benefit of increasing scoring while also generating greater fan interest.

 

[BobbyJ]

The W is evolving with bigger, stronger and more athletic players, and the overall play has gotten more physical. The problem isn’t just about the refs. The W needs to change their style of play the same way the NBA changed when physical play threatened to undermine the league.

Many of us are old enough to remember “The Punch,” a brutal punch to the face of Rudy Tomjanovich by Kermit Washington that ended Rudy T’s career. While it was the worst incident of violence in NBA history, it was hardly an isolated one.

The NBA changed the rules on contact while adding fines and suspensions to curb physical play. The refs called the games tighter for a time until a more free flowing, open style of play took over. The W needs a similar evolution that would have the benefit of increasing scoring while also generating greater fan interest.

While it ended his season, he played 3 more years and was an all-star in the season following his injuries.

 

[oldude]

While it ended his season, he played 3 more years and was an all-star in the season following his injuries.

Well let’s say it shortened his career. Rudy T also dealt with alcoholism throughout his later life which, to some extent, he attributed to the punch.

If you haven’t read it, I strongly recommend reading “The Punch”, a great book detailing all the different elements of the incident before, during and after, written by longtime sportswriter John Feinstein.

The book includes a lengthy section on Calvin Murphy, one of my boyhood heroes growing up in CT. Murphy was one of Rudy T’s teammates during the game, and generally considered to be the toughest player in the NBA at only 5’9”.

 

[YKCornelius]

Well, I do not share the opinion that all of the refs in the WNBA are incompetent. Take Maj Forsberg for instance, who not only has refereed numerous WNBA Finals and NCAA Final Fours, she also has worked bunches of FIBA tournaments - including several World Cups - and even the Olympics. IMO, Maj is the best woman referee in the US basketball environment, and one of the best in the world.

That said, if she is paired up with two weak officials, it might be hard for some to differentiate amongst the crew as a whole.

IMO, the issue is lack of consistency - as many coaches and fans continue to rail about. Not only how games are officiated from one game to the next, but also inside the three man crews that are often a mixture of experienced and less-experienced refs.

The WNBA can't just fire all of the refs midway through the season, so I am curious to understand what folks think should be done for the way forward.

IMO, a two pronged approach from the Commissioner's office is needed - one for the short-term and another for the long-term. The short-term involves, as mentioned previously, a communique to the cadre of head referees, spelling out expectations for the rest of the season. The easiest expectation to convey is to start calling freedom of movement violations - these are obvious and have been called at every level of WBB, from grade school to the pros.

Also, immediately add a rule change that allows an additional 2-3 challenges per game (or two per half). It won't lengthen the game noticeably, and will give the appearance that the league office is committed to getting the calls right. At the same time, the extra challenges will act as teaching moments in the game amongst the three-person crew, thereby shaping better officiating.

The long-term approach requires better planning, better pay (to include incentives for better performance - however measured), and training events for crews to work on working together consistently. I haven't done a deep dive into the WNBA referees this year, but I can attest that LAST season there were at least a dozen refs who worked the NCAA D-I tournament as well as WNBA postseason.

I would contend that professional referees need transition time to adapt from from one construct (NCAA or FIBA) to the next (WNBA). Just like the players need pre-season practices to get in sync with their new teammates, the refs would/should benefit from the same.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

Well, I do not share the opinion that all of the refs in the WNBA are incompetent. Take Maj Forsberg for instance, who not only has refereed numerous WNBA Finals and NCAA Final Fours, she also has worked bunches of FIBA tournaments - including several World Cups - and even the Olympics. IMO, Maj is the best woman referee in the US basketball environment, and one of the best in the world.

That said, if she is paired up with two weak officials, it might be hard for some to differentiate amongst the crew as a whole.

IMO, the issue is lack of consistency - as many coaches and fans continue to rail about. Not only how games are officiated from one game to the next, but also inside the three man crews that are often a mixture of experienced and less-experienced refs.

The WNBA can't just fire all of the refs midway through the season, so I am curious to understand what folks think should be done for the way forward.

IMO, a two pronged approach from the Commissioner's office is needed - one for the short-term and another for the long-term. The short-term involves, as mentioned previously, a communique to the cadre of head referees, spelling out expectations for the rest of the season. The easiest expectation to convey is to start calling freedom of movement violations - these are obvious and have been called at every level of WBB, from grade school to the pros.

Also, immediately add a rule change that allows an additional 2-3 challenges per game (or two per half). It won't lengthen the game noticeably, and will give the appearance that the league office is committed to getting the calls right. At the same time, the extra challenges will act as teaching moments in the game amongst the three-person crew, thereby shaping better officiating.

The long-term approach requires better planning, better pay (to include incentives for better performance - however measured), and training events for crews to work on working together consistently. I haven't done a deep dive into the WNBA referees this year, but I can attest that LAST season there were at least a dozen refs who worked the NCAA D-I tournament as well as WNBA postseason.

I would contend that professional referees need transition time to adapt from from one construct (NCAA or FIBA) to the next (WNBA). Just like the players need pre-season practices to get in sync with their new teammates, the refs would/should benefit from the same.

YKCornelius- - The 1st thing that has to be done by the League is hire outside sources to supervise the NCAA and WNBA refs!
Not the retired refs who refereed with the people they're supposed to evaluate! Maybe retired NBA refs?
The evaluators have to be neutral!
Even if Maj WERE a good official she's always teamed with incompetent refs so her having a balancing part of the game is a negative impact!

 

[YKCornelius]

YKCornelius- - The 1st thing that has to be done by the League is hire outside sources to supervise the NCAA and WNBA refs!
Not the retired refs who refereed with the people they're supposed to evaluate! Maybe retired NBA refs?
The evaluators have to be neutral!
Even if Maj WERE a good official she's always teamed with incompetent refs so her having a balancing part of the game is a negative impact!

Yep, I agree that sounds like a reasonable, positive step in the right direction.

The question I would have is when would that start, and how long before any results are forthcoming? Let's say outside supervisors are hired immediately - do they go back and look a the tapes of first half games in order to effect change for the second half? What/when/how would be communicated to this year's crop of referees? Does the league call this season a wash to focus on next year?

I see you capitalized "were" which I infer you disagree with my assessment of Maj. Interesting. Do you have an example of who might be a good WBB referee in your opinion - past or present?

 

[cancontent]

WNBA refs criticized for inconsistency in how games are called

Players, coaches and fans say they want greater consistency in how games are called.

www.espn.com

The timing of this article is perfect for this thread. Just finished reading it and thought ESPN did a good job looking at it from different perspectives, including players who are okay with how calls being made, inconsistency depending on the team, etc.

 

[HopJim]

This type of messaging is not positive for the WNBA. Shows that management still is not experienced enough. For all the attention the WNBA needs to grow, having focus on "their game is too rough" serves no positive purpose. Most well managed leagues would know how to manage the message(s).

 

[cancontent]

This type of messaging is not positive for the WNBA. Shows that management still is not experienced enough. For all the attention the WNBA needs to grow, having focus on "their game is too rough" serves no positive purpose. Most well managed leagues would know how to manage the message(s).

Every league has their challenges with managing the perspective of being too rough or not policing their players accordingly. Or leagues continue to trip over themselves trying to beat negative narratives and the public looks the other way.

Hockey has and always seem to have challenges policing their players on the ice. This year's play-offs were no exception where a goalie suffered a severe concussion from a cheap shot and the player who committed the foul got a slap on the wrist. The NFL deals with ongoing issues of poor player conduct on and off the field, and their efforts also provide mixed results. In my opinion no league can claim they manage messaging well.

 

[Fishy]

For women's professional basketball, these are still fairly early days and the skill level from the best players on the court to the worst is a relative chasm compared to the NBA.

The league is letting the lesser players make up the stagger by mugging the skill players.

They seem to prefer that to having Clark or Paige or whoever score 60 while 2/3rds of the other team fouls out. It’s like when the Big East experimented with six fouls - it ends badly.

 

[Bigboote]

This type of messaging is not positive for the WNBA. Shows that management still is not experienced enough. For all the attention the WNBA needs to grow, having focus on "their game is too rough" serves no positive purpose. Most well managed leagues would know how to manage the message(s).

Sally Jenkins has a column in the WaPo this morning saying largely the same thing you did. The W is squandering an opportunity to keep the momentum up by turning the game into a slugfest.

An interesting stat she included: halfway through the season there have been 141 injuries. 174 players have played in the league this year (about 150 at any particular time).