OT: Remember when the NCAA let UNC off the hook? | The Boneyard

OT: Remember when the NCAA let UNC off the hook?

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Well, it's even worse than previously thought.


As a reading specialist at UNC-Chapel Hill, Mary Willingham met athletes who told her they had never read a book and didn’t know what a paragraph was. She said she saw diagnostic tests that showed they were unable to do college-level work.
But many of those athletes stayed eligible to play sports, she said, because the academic support system provided improper help and tolerated plagiarism. When she raised questions or made an objection to what she saw as cheating, she said, she saw no one take her concerns seriously.
Willingham, who still works at the university but not with athletes, said she lodged complaints at least two years before UNC’s academic problems erupted into scandal. She channeled some of her frustration into a thesis for her master’s degree, on the corrupting influence of big-money sports on university academics.
...
Among her assertions:
• The no-show classes that had been offered by the chairman of the Department of African and Afro-American Studies date back at least to the time Willingham began working for the support program in 2003. Commonly known within the program as “paper classes,” they were billed as lecture classes, but the classes never met.

Willingham learned of them when she was asked to work with a female athlete on a paper. Willingham said the paper was a “cut-and-paste” job, but when she raised questions about it, staff members told her not to worry. The student later received a grade of B or better.
• Members of the men’s basketball team took no-show classes until the fall semester of 2009, when the team was assigned a new academic counselor. The new counselor was appalled to learn of the classes, and wanted no part of them. University records show the enrollments stopped that semester for basketball players, while they continued for football players.

Numerous football and basketball players came to the university with academic histories that showed them incapable of doing college-level work, especially at one of the nation’s top public universities. Diagnostic tests administered by the university confirmed their lack of preparedness and also identified learning disabilities that would need extensive remediation to put them on a successful academic path.
Some athletes told Willingham they had never read a book or written a paragraph, but they were placed in no-show classes that required a 20-page paper and came away with grades of B or better.
• Roughly five years ago, Bobbi Owen, the senior associate dean who had oversight of the academic support program, sought to rein in the number of independent studies offered by the African studies department, which by then averaged nearly 200 a year. Independent studies required no class time and often not much more than a term paper; they were popular with football and basketball players.
There's alot more stuff in the article, so read the rest here:


http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/11/17/2490476/insider-unc-tolerated-cheating.html
 
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Most players at major basketball and football programs don't belong anywhere near a college campus. Accept it and move on.
 
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TRest

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How is this not a major news story? We are penalized because we have players actually taking legitimate classes, and Carolina is not, after having their entire football and basketball teams taking fake classes for at least ten years.
And Syracuse fans think our basketball academics are keeping us out of the ACC. I hope we added a fraudulent major like UNC.
 

CL82

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Most players at major basketball and football programs don't belong anywhere near a college campus. Accept it and move on.

Bullshit. Don't minimize the complete lack of integrity at UNC by saying it happens everywhere. It doesn't, not like that. UConn is being punished for transfers and kids leaving early to go to the pros but outright fraud is being tacitly sanctioned. There is no way that can be allowed to stand.
 
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Bull****. Don't minimize the complete lack of integrity at UNC by saying it happens everywhere. It doesn't, not like that. UConn is being punished for transfers and kids leaving early to go to the pros but outright fraud is being tacitly sanctioned. There is no way that can be allowed to stand.

Don't get me wrong, UNC definitely takes it to a new level and deserves to be punished, but people need to stop pretending most of these guys are real students. Whether they just all just take easy classes, get "help" from tutors/GFs, or straight up take fake classes like UNC, they aren't playing on the same field as regular students. The AJC had a report a few years ago that showed the average SAT of almost every football and basketball team in the country (save for a few privates IIRC). The detailed report is unavailable, but the summary still is, which I will link for you. Only *one* football program had an average SAT above 1000 (GT at 1028). If you think guys with <1000 SAT scores are staying eligible doing legitimate college work at Michigan, UCLA, UVA, or just about any college for that matter, all while handling the demands of D1 football/basketball, you're fooling yourself.

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/paper-trail/2008/12/30/athletes-show-huge-gaps-in-sat-scores

Edit:
On a related side note, a few years ago ESPN had a ND Football All-Access thing near the beginning of the season. I remember them showing a tutor explaining how to write a five paragraph essay to some idiot fb player. So sick of their "high academic standards." Arg, I can't believe they're going to be the BCS #1

/rant
 
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Don't get me wrong, UNC definitely takes it to a new level and deserves to be punished, but people need to stop pretending most of these guys are real students. Whether they just all just take easy classes, get "help" from tutors/GFs, or straight up take fake classes like UNC, they aren't playing on the same field as regular students. The AJC had a report a few years ago that showed the average SAT of almost every football and basketball team in the country (save for a few privates IIRC). The detailed report is unavailable, but the summary still is, which I will link for you. Only *one* football program had an average SAT above 1000 (GT at 1028). If you think guys with <1000 SAT scores are staying eligible doing legitimate college work at Michigan, UCLA, UVA, or just about any college for that matter, all while handling the demands of D1 football/basketball, you're fooling yourself.

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/paper-trail/2008/12/30/athletes-show-huge-gaps-in-sat-scores

Edit:
On a related side note, a few years ago ESPN had a ND Football All-Access thing near the beginning of the season. I remember them showing a tutor explaining how to write a five paragraph essay to some idiot fb player. So sick of their "high academic standards." Arg, I can't believe they're going to be the BCS #1

/rant

Wow, I hadn't realized that difference was that great. Yes, it's just pure hypocrisy but of course of all us still turn out for it. Would be curious what the SAT scores of football and basketball players at Stanford, Northwestern and Duke are. I mean, from what I heard, Will Avery could barely read and he's in a classroom full of high school valedictorians. I went to an Ivy League school, and even there, the athletes were definitely a notch below the regular students, although not egregiously (full disclosure, I played sports in college so I likely benefited from it).
 
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I've got to agree w/ Kyle here for a bit... I knew many bball players at UConn and most never went to class. You'd usually only see them on exam days so even though they were taking "real" classes, there is no way they were held to the same academic standard as a real student. I remember there was a big blow up about Khalid never going to class that was in the papers, etc. and I believe he was disciplined by it as well. He showed up the next day (one of the first times anyone had ever seen him on campus as he was allowed to live off campus) and then never again.

This does not diminish the fraud at UNC but lets not make it seem like UConn is being punished for holding their players accountable and making them be true student-athletes.
 
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Please do not compare ND to most BCS schools in regards to academics. The football team isn't a group of rocket scientists; but they are light years ahead of any competitive program outside of Standford
 
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Please do not compare ND to most BCS schools in regards to academics. The football team isn't a group of rocket scientists; but they are light years ahead of any competitive program outside of Standford

I think you're fooling yourself. In fact, I know you are.
 
C

Chief00

The real problem with UConn is that they had academic standards for athletes - which many MBB players failed to meet. The difference with many schools is that those schools had higher APRs because they had no standards - they just passed and graduated the BB players along
 
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I've got to agree w/ Kyle here for a bit... I knew many bball players at UConn and most never went to class. You'd usually only see them on exam days so even though they were taking "real" classes, there is no way they were held to the same academic standard as a real student. I remember there was a big blow up about Khalid never going to class that was in the papers, etc. and I believe he was disciplined by it as well. He showed up the next day (one of the first times anyone had ever seen him on campus as he was allowed to live off campus) and then never again.

This does not diminish the fraud at UNC but lets not make it seem like UConn is being punished for holding their players accountable and making them be true student-athletes.

How long ago was that? I took one of the easy-A courses a year ago that draws tons of MBB and Football players, and while almost none of the regular students ever showed up to class (it really was that easy), the athletes were generally there. I think they're being checked in on more frequently now.
 

CL82

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I've got to agree w/ Kyle here for a bit... I knew many bball players at UConn and most never went to class. You'd usually only see them on exam days so even though they were taking "real" classes, there is no way they were held to the same academic standard as a real student. I remember there was a big blow up about Khalid never going to class that was in the papers, etc. and I believe he was disciplined by it as well. He showed up the next day (one of the first times anyone had ever seen him on campus as he was allowed to live off campus) and then never again.

This does not diminish the fraud at UNC but lets not make it seem like UConn is being punished for holding their players accountable and making them be true student-athletes.

You are incredibly uniformed about the APR, how it works, what exactly caused UConn to punished, how the standards were changed and retroactive numbers were used so that it was mathmatically impossible for UConn to be compliance, and that if the most up to date figures were used, we'd be post season eligible. It's been discussed ad nauseum on the board, so I won't rehash it. In the words of the great Jim Calhoun..."get some facts and come back and see me."
 
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please enlighten me.

Faculty there report to me the same problems that are described in this thread. In fact, we've seen this before. ND has taken kids with SATs that had them nixed at other schools. This doesn't mean they make a practice out of it, but they make exceptions, for stellar athletes.
 

ctchamps

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Don't get me wrong, UNC definitely takes it to a new level and deserves to be punished, but people need to stop pretending most of these guys are real students. Whether they just all just take easy classes, get "help" from tutors/GFs, or straight up take fake classes like UNC, they aren't playing on the same field as regular students. The AJC had a report a few years ago that showed the average SAT of almost every football and basketball team in the country (save for a few privates IIRC). The detailed report is unavailable, but the summary still is, which I will link for you. Only *one* football program had an average SAT above 1000 (GT at 1028). If you think guys with <1000 SAT scores are staying eligible doing legitimate college work at Michigan, UCLA, UVA, or just about any college for that matter, all while handling the demands of D1 football/basketball, you're fooling yourself.

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/paper-trail/2008/12/30/athletes-show-huge-gaps-in-sat-scores

Edit:
On a related side note, a few years ago ESPN had a ND Football All-Access thing near the beginning of the season. I remember them showing a tutor explaining how to write a five paragraph essay to some idiot fb player. So sick of their "high academic standards." Arg, I can't believe they're going to be the BCS #1

/rant
I would be the last to argue against the data you present. This thread was started because of the hypocrisy of the NCAA ruling regarding UConn's APR. It was a personal vendetta of Emmert against JC and nothing more. The OP presented the situation that took place at UNC as evidence of the injustice with the ruling by the NCAA over the UConn men's bb program. The APR was the perfect storm for UConn. JC was a nationally unpopular coach, Mark Emmert had bitter relations with JC, and there was pressure building for the NCAA to take steps to look at academic standards with athletes. So they created an APR standard and chose to make it be retroactive. There was only one significant program in the crosshairs of that action, the UConn men's bb program. It doesn't matter one iota that the APR does not address academic standards. A major program took a hit and that would satisfy most casual fans. Furthermore, most of the fans in the country do not want to look critically at their programs. Most of them rationalize the APR findings as proof their programs are academically up to standard. It is a classic case of self delusion.

You have chosen to make a case against student athletes and the fallacies that exist about their academic standard. upstater has been doing this for quite some time now. The problem is you did not address the specific injustice that took place when Emmert created the APR standard and chose to make it retroactive. Nor have you addressed the injustice of why the UConn's men's bb team received a one year ban which was the same severity as the UNC team caught gaming the APR.
 
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I know a guy who plays football at ND now and he had a D+ average at best in high school and he even failed a few classes.
 
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I'm not saying ND is lilly white; they have far fewer exceptions than say LSU or USC.
 
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A tweet from one of our current players: "Are girls basketball team would beat some boys." Yikes...
 
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A tweet from one of our current players: "Are girls basketball team would beat some boys." Yikes...

Which one? I follow 5 or 6 of the guys on twitter and I haven't seen that tweet.
 
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A tweet from one of our current players: "Are girls basketball team would beat some boys." Yikes...

Uh, 75% of this board graduated from a university.
 
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Uh, 75% of this board graduated from a university.
The point is about the aptitude of "student" athletes and not traditional students, not a shot at the school.
 
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The point is about the aptitude of "student" athletes and not traditional students, not a shot at the school.

Yes, I know. And if you read this board, "are=our," "hear=here," "lose=loose," "you're=your," and my personal favorite, "riddance=riddens."
 
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Yes, I know. And if you read this board, "are=our," "hear=here," "lose=loose," "you're=your," and my personal favorite, "riddance=riddens."

Don't forget should have, could have, would have...;)
 
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