OT: Pete Rose

[JavaMan]

ESPN:
Entries in long-hidden notebook show Pete Rose bet on baseball as player

"This does it. This closes the door," said John Dowd, the former federal prosecutor who led MLB's investigation.

Just when I thought he was getting closer...

[LINK]

 

[UcMiami]

Couldn't happen to a nicer guy!
Gambling addiction is a nasty thing, but I am really tired of Pete and his denials and his desperation to get reinstated. Rules were clear, he clearly and admittedly broke them, and the penalty is spelled out. Great player, not a great person, and not deserving of special dispensation.

i would much rather see Shoeless Joe get reinstated than Pete.

 

[meyers7]

Couldn't happen to a nicer guy!
Gambling addiction is a nasty thing, but I am really tired of Pete and his denials and his desperation to get reinstated. Rules were clear, he clearly and admittedly broke them, and the penalty is spelled out. Great player, not a great person, and not deserving of special dispensation.

i would much rather see Shoeless Joe get reinstated than Pete.

Agree wholeheartedly.

 

[EricLA]

Couldn't happen to a nicer guy!
Gambling addiction is a nasty thing, but I am really tired of Pete and his denials and his desperation to get reinstated. Rules were clear, he clearly and admittedly broke them, and the penalty is spelled out. Great player, not a great person, and not deserving of special dispensation.

i would much rather see Shoeless Joe get reinstated than Pete.

Agree with you 100% and then some. If Pete weren't such an arrogant SOB, perhaps public opinion could have swayed things back his way, but he broke the rules, many times, and in egregious ways. Hopefully he's never voted in. He will always have his records, just not the honor of the HOF or anything related to that.

 

[johnnyc]

i would much rather see Shoeless Joe get reinstated than Pete.

Well we don't really know about Shoeless Joe do we? He comes off looking better because of films like Field of Dreams and Eight Men Out.

The further away we get from what really happened things become muddier sometimes.

 

[Husky25]

Agree with you 100% and then some. If Pete weren't such an arrogant SOB, perhaps public opinion could have swayed things back his way, but he broke the rules, many times, and in egregious ways. Hopefully he's never voted in. He will always have his records, just not the honor of the HOF or anything related to that.

He can't be voted in, unless, if they reinstate him (don't see it ever happening), they allow him a special circumstance to be on the ballot. Even if he were allowed on the ballot, he is only eligible (provided he gain a certain amount of votes) for 15 years. His last year was 1986, plus 5 year waiting period, plus 15 eligible years = 2006.

 

[UcMiami]

Well we don't really know about Shoeless Joe do we? He comes off looking better because of films like Field of Dreams and Eight Men Out.

The further away we get from what really happened things become muddier sometimes.

He also had a fabulous WS when supposedly he was bribed to stink it up. There was a lot of interesting stuff going on in the old game at that time - but ultimately I agree. Not saying Joe should get back in, but I am pretty sick of Pete.

 

[UcMiami]

He can't be voted in, unless, if they reinstate him (don't see it ever happening), they allow him a special circumstance to be on the ballot. Even if he were allowed on the ballot, he is only eligible (provided he gain a certain amount of votes) for 15 years. His last year was 1986, plus 5 year waiting period, plus 15 eligible years = 2006.

There is also an old timers committee so at some point he could theoretically be eligible for nomination through them.
I do not see hime ever getting voted to the hall even if he did get reinstated - the numbers are there but the scandal is such that he would never reach the threshold.

 

[Husky25]

There is also an old timers committee so at some point he could theoretically be eligible for nomination through them.
I do not see hime ever getting voted to the hall even if he did get reinstated - the numbers are there but the scandal is such that he would never reach the threshold.

I agree with you. It ain't ever happening. Phil Rizzuto is only in the Hall of Fame because he had friends on the Veterans Committee. I doubt Pete Rose has any pull with that committee. Moot point anyway. He ain't ever getting reinstated.

 

[StoneTheCrows]

There are probably players in every hall of fame that have done something screwy,but as long as we don't know about it it's ok,yeah right. Rizzuto does not belong in the HOF? He was a key player on many championship teams.at least he has many World Championship rings.IMO,there are a lot of other players voted in by the Veterans Committee that are a lot less deserving than Rizzuto. You have to be a Red Sox fan. And i am not really new to this board,i have been following it for many years,i just do not post all that often. Also, i have followed the UCONN men since the 60's and the women since the beginning of the CPTV era.

 

[Husky25]

Wow . Who can argue with that logic? Answer: Pretty much everybody.

There are probably players in every hall of fame that have done something screwy,but as long as we don't know about it it's ok,yeah right.

First Pete Rose did not do "something screwy." He bet on baseball. He bet on his own team while he was managing it. You don't think that affected his decisions? You don't think that it goes right to the integrity of the game? He did the one thing that is guaranteed to get you kicked out of the game because of it's effects of the largest contest in the game at the highest level of the game.

Rizzuto does not belong in the HOF? He was a key player on many championship teams.at least he has many World Championship rings.

This is really not an argument, and while yes, I am a Red Sox fan of over 30 years, it really is not a factor (Niether is your UConn Basketball fandom resume'). I'm not blaming Rizzuto. It's not like he was stumping for inclusion, but it is widely held that Rizzuto backed his way into the Hall of Fame. Over 13 seasons - excluding the War Years - Rizzuto hit .273 and had less than 1,600 hits. 122 Hits per season does not a Hall of Famer make. But hey, he could really lay down that sacrifice bunt like it was nobody's business, so why not open the doors for him?

He never garnered more than 39% of the BBWAA vote and by the time he was voted in (1994 - 18 years after he was no longer eligible for BBWAA election), he had a lot of friends and ex-teammates on the Veterans Committee. Rizzuto is in the Hall of Fame because he was a likable and played on the same teams as a lot of other Hall of Famers. Phil Rizzuto may not be the chairman of most undeserving Hall of Famers, but he has a seat in the boardroom.

By your logic, Robert Horry should be in Springfield. Why not? He has more championships than Michael Jordan. Bill Romanowski has as many Championships as Joe Montana and Terry Bradshaw. Surely he deserves a enshrinement in Canton too.

 

[meyers7]

Well we don't really know about Shoeless Joe do we? He comes off looking better because of films like Field of Dreams and Eight Men Out.

The further away we get from what really happened things become muddier sometimes.

Well and the fact that he had 12 hits, batted .375 and made no errors. If I was paying someone to throw the series, I'd want my money back with a performance like that.

 

[geordi]

And as a Yankee fan, I agree. Rizzuto clearly does not belong in the Hall of Fame. But then again, Dubya wasn't elected president the first time.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

In every dugout in almost every level of Baseball there are signs saying "association with gamblers is punishable by being thrown out of the game!" Pete Rose was/is so arrogant he thinks he's bigger than the game and Baseball won't catch or punish Charley Hustle! For over 10 years he denied any gambling then he wrote a book he came clean to help sell the book! He should be denied anything to do with MLB or Minor LB for that matter!
A-Roid is the same type of worthless lying cheat and should not be allowed to play to pass the legends such as Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Hank Aaron, etal! The talking suits building him up for honors and acceptance when he reaches a certain milestone makes me want to puke!

 

[ochoopsfan]

If Maury Wills isnt in the HOF then I tend to wonder who votes and why they are allowed to vote. How could Rizzuto make the HOF, he used to cut out of Yankee broadcasts after 7 innings, and he did a song with sexual overtures(well kinda) with Meatloaf.
Holy Cow!!

 

[johnnyc]

Well and the fact that he had 12 hits, batted .375 and made no errors. If I was paying someone to throw the series, I'd want my money back with a performance like that.

True. Maybe his pride wouldn't allow him to look totally bad but he had no rbi. Apparently he turned down the first offer of 10 grand to help throw the series but agreed to accept 20. He only received $5,000.

Pretty good summary here.....

http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/7afaa6b2

 

[Icebear]

Wow . Who can argue with that logic? Answer: Pretty much everybody.



First Pete Rose did not do "something screwy." He bet on baseball. He bet on his own team while he was managing it. You don't think that affected his decisions? You don't think that it goes right to the integrity of the game? He did the one thing that is guaranteed to get you kicked out of the game because of it's effects of the largest contest in the game at the highest level of the game.

No, it wasn't just when he was managing. The new material indicates he bet on many things including his own team while still playing. This is just one bookie's notebook do you really think there weren't others. He lost $25,500 in one week. And betted far more than he admitted to in the past.

 

[Husky25]

No, it wasn't just when he was managing. The new material indicates he bet on many things including his own team while still playing. This is just one bookie's notebook do you really think there weren't others. He lost $25,500 in one week. And betted far more than he admitted to in the past.

I read that report, but I think betting on your team while managing is far more sinister. Unless it is a pitcher, One player alone has very little control of the game on the ball field. The manager has control over the lineup, substitutions, and bullpen.

 

[Kibitzer]

Best thing that can be said about Pete Rose is that he didn't bet against his own team.

 

[johnnyc]

This is really not an argument, and while yes, I am a Red Sox fan of over 30 years, it really is not a factor (Niether is your UConn Basketball fandom resume'). I'm not blaming Rizzuto. It's not like he was stumping for inclusion, but it is widely held that Rizzuto backed his way into the Hall of Fame. Over 13 seasons - excluding the War Years - Rizzuto hit .273 and had less than 1,600 hits. 122 Hits per season does not a Hall of Famer make. But hey, he could really lay down that sacrifice bunt like it was nobody's business, so why not open the doors for him?

He never garnered more than 39% of the BBWAA vote and by the time he was voted in (1994 - 18 years after he was no longer eligible for BBWAA election), he had a lot of friends and ex-teammates on the Veterans Committee. Rizzuto is in the Hall of Fame because he was a likable and played on the same teams as a lot of other Hall of Famers. Phil Rizzuto may not be the chairman of most undeserving Hall of Famers, but he has a seat in the boardroom.

I agree the numbers look paltry compared to recent shortstops and what you would expect to be HOF numbers. I think you have to take into account the era he played in and what was expected of shortstops and compare him to shortstops that played against him and then compare league avg to other eras. I used to have a great software program that did that but not anymore unfortunately. Also he finished in the top 20 of mvp voting seven times (and won one). HOF Rabbit Maranville had worse numbers than Rizzuto but for his time he was considered a great shortstop finishing in the top 17 in MVP voting eight times.

Supposedly Ted Williams made this comment about Rizzuto in 49. He was on first base and pointing at Rizzuto he told Tommy Henrich that 'if we had that little squirt we'd be out in front by 10 games right now.'
Boston's SS was Junior Stephens who had much better stats then Rizzuto.

Forgot to add.....I didn't think he deserved the HOF .....but I didn't see him play either.

 

[stamfordhusky]

I read that report, but I think betting on your team while managing is far more sinister. Unless it is a pitcher, One player alone has very little control of the game on the ball field. The manager has control over the lineup, substitutions, and bullpen.

It's not just over whether someone can control the game. It's more about getting in debt to bookies and the mob behind the bookies. Once that happens, there is a real possibility of players/managers giving inside info to gamblers and/or throwing games. While one non-pitcher doesn't have that much effect on a given game, a good player deliberately going 0-4 and maybe making a key error can affect enough games to dramatically tilt the long-run probabilities.

 

[Husky25]

Well and the fact that he had 12 hits, batted .375 and made no errors. If I was paying someone to throw the series, I'd want my money back with a performance like that.

True. Maybe his pride wouldn't allow him to look totally bad but he had no rbi. Apparently he turned down the first offer of 10 grand to help throw the series but agreed to accept 20. He only received $5,000.

Pretty good summary here.....

http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/7afaa6b2

Perusing Baseball-reference for a few minutes and I noticed that while a couple of the players may well have been on their way to Hall of Fame careers (Cicotte and Jackson), none of the 8 were worthy by the numbers in 1920, when they got suspended. Jackson is arguably more popular for not being in the Hall of Fame. The myth is larger than the stats that back it up.

 

[Husky25]

It's not just over whether someone can control the game. It's more about getting in debt to bookies and the mob behind the bookies. Once that happens, there is a real possibility of players/managers giving inside info to gamblers and/or throwing games. While one non-pitcher doesn't have that much effect on a given game, a good player deliberately going 0-4 and maybe making a key error can affect enough games to dramatically tilt the long-run probabilities.

Throwing a game is much more predictable when you control who is playing. It's currently a moot point (until more info comes to light) because Rose said when he bet on the Reds, he always bet for them to win. If true there is a flipside to that coin. It's all well and good until you put the $5,000 you have on the line ahead of the overall health of the team. Ask Mario Soto how Rose did as a manager? Why did Soto have to pitch a complete game on the last day of 1985 season with the Reds 22 games out of first place?

 

[Creaky]

There's often a sort of "leveraging effect" with HoF elections. Once Pee-Wee Reese got in, I thought Rizzuto would follow. It's so easy to make the "if this guy got in, this guy should, too" argument.

 

[meyers7]

Perusing Baseball-reference for a few minutes and I noticed that while a couple of the players may well have been on their way to Hall of Fame careers (Cicotte and Jackson), none of the 8 were worthy by the numbers in 1920, when they got suspended. Jackson is arguably more popular for not being in the Hall of Fame. The myth is larger than the stats that back it up.

Well Jackson did/does have the 3rd highest batting avg of all time (career). A few more years, lot's more hits, who knows where he would have ended up.