OT: Pete Rose

[Husky25]

I agree the numbers look paltry compared to recent shortstops and what you would expect to be HOF numbers. I think you have to take into account the era he played in and what was expected of shortstops and compare him to shortstops that played against him and then compare league avg to other eras. I used to have a great software program that did that but not anymore unfortunately. Also he finished in the top 20 of mvp voting seven times (and won one). HOF Rabbit Maranville had worse numbers than Rizzuto but for his time he was considered a great shortstop finishing in the top 17 in MVP voting eight times.

Supposedly Ted Williams made this comment about Rizzuto in 49. He was on first base and pointing at Rizzuto he told Tommy Henrich that 'if we had that little squirt we'd be out in front by 10 games right now.'
Boston's SS was Junior Stephens who had much better stats then Rizzuto.

Forgot to add.....I didn't think he deserved the HOF .....but I didn't see him play either.

I completely disagree with everything except for the last line.

According to Rizzuto's baseball-reference page, comparable players include Jose Offerman and 9 other guys (from his era and prior) who no one has ever heard of and who are not in the Hall of Fame. His Hall of Fame Statistics are also well below even the marginal HoF thresholds. Winning an MVP in that era doesn't do much for me. There were only 8 teams so the pool was kind of shallow. Roger Maris has 2 MVPs and he's not a HoFer. Bringing up other players that may or may not be HoF worthy (i.e. Rabbit Maranville) does nothing to further Rizzuto's cause.

Look, it is what it is and it's not like he going to be kicked out (though that would be a great tweak. Only a set number of players may be in the HoF at any given time. If you want to add one, another must be dropped), but it doesn't mean he should have been considered in the first place.

 

[Husky25]

Well Jackson did/does have the 3rd highest batting avg of all time (career). A few more years, lot's more hits, who knows where he would have ended up.

Yeah, he would probably merit a serious look (and probable bid) with a few more quality years. Tough to tell when you are forced out of the game at 32 years old. Plus the Deadball Era was coming to an end, so who knows.

 

[StoneTheCrows]

Mr. Husky 25,wow,you have a answer for everything.That is why i more or less stopped posting to any boards,because people like you THINK that they have a answer for everything.WOW!!!And just for info's sake,screwy means anything illegal,betting,drugs,etc.

 

[stamfordhusky]

Excellent analysis, Husky25. It's nice to see facts, as opposed to misguided opinions.

 

[Husky25]

How will I ever fall asleep tonight?

If it make you feel better, I don't have an answer for how others prevent themselves from taking offense to off-topic comments on a college sports message board .

 

[JellyBean]

I was so hoping that Rose would get into the Hall of Fame. This recent event just slammed the chance of Rose getting into the HOF. Heck with the All-Star game being in Cincy next month, Rose just kissed any chance of him being apart of those events good bye.

 

[Icebear]

Best thing that can be said about Pete Rose is that he didn't bet against his own team.

That isn't as clear now.

 

[stamfordhusky]

That isn't as clear now.

John Dowd, who led the investigation of Rose, has stated that he believes Rose also bet against his own team. He thinks he could have turned up evidence to prove it had his investigation continued longer.

 

[Wally East]

There are probably players in every hall of fame that have done something screwy,but as long as we don't know about it it's ok,yeah right.

We know precisely what Rose did. He bet on baseball games he was involved in. Yes, that will get you punished. Obviously, you can't punish players if no one knows if they did something wrong but why would that keep you from giving the appropriate punishment to Rose when we do know what he did?

Rizzuto does not belong in the HOF? He was a key player on many championship teams.at least he has many World Championship rings.

Rings do not earn you a place in the Hall. Rizzuto belongs in the Hall of Close-to-Fame. He was an above-average player who had some very good seasons. He did lose some prime seasons to WWII but so did lots of players. His stats are about the same as a lot of other shortstops who are not in the Hall.

IMO,there are a lot of other players voted in by the Veterans Committee that are a lot less deserving than Rizzuto.

True but this doesn't make Rizzuto any more deserving.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

And as a Yankee fan, I agree. Rizzuto clearly does not belong in the Hall of Fame. But then again, Dubya wasn't elected president the first time.

Ironic isn't it? In a thread about the importance of rules and the costs of breaking same we find a post that disregards them...and it garners two likes.

 

[Icebear]

John Dowd, who led the investigation of Rose, has stated that he believes Rose also bet against his own team. He thinks he could have turned up evidence to prove it had his investigation continued longer.

Yes, I have little doubt Rose most likely bet against his own team. He was a gambling addict.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

I think sometimes we all get too hung up on statistics! 500 home runs, 1,000 RBI's, 300 wins, 900 SB's, 3.00 era, # 0f 20 win seasons, the list goes on! As a BB fan since the Dodgers were in Brooklyn, the only important stats to me that qualifies a player for ANY HofF is how do they compare to the other studs of their era they played in! If they as a player was considered ELITE or "a Star" during that era they deserve consideration!
There is no doubt, IMHO, that during the time Phil Rizzuto played he (remember he missed playing time while in the armed services), was considered a ELITE Star as was Pee Wee Reese!
Players that are NOT in the HofF that I think deserve serious consideration because of the above are, Jim Kaat, Jack Morris, Tim Raines, Tony Oliva, Dick Allen, Mike Piazza, Curt Schilling, Mike Mussina, Jeff Bagwell, Vlad Guerrero, among others! (players in RED are my 1st choices)
One player for me that is close is Graig Nettles. He was considered if not the top defensive 3rd baseman than 2nd & was a very dangerous hitter through out his career! Someone to think about!

 

[Icebear]

Yeah, but Nettles was a Yankee.

 

[Husky25]

I think sometimes we all get too hung up on statistics! 500 home runs, 1,000 RBI's, 300 wins, 900 SB's, 3.00 era, # 0f 20 win seasons, the list goes on! As a BB fan since the Dodgers were in Brooklyn, the only important stats to me that qualifies a player for ANY HofF is how do they compare to the other studs of their era they played in! If they as a player was considered ELITE or "a Star" during that era they deserve consideration!
There is no doubt, IMHO, that during the time Phil Rizzuto played he (remember he missed playing time while in the armed services), was considered a ELITE Star as was Pee Wee Reese!
Players that are NOT in the HofF that I think deserve serious consideration because of the above are, Jim Kaat, Jack Morris, Tim Raines, Tony Oliva, Dick Allen, Mike Piazza, Curt Schilling, Mike Mussina, Jeff Bagwell, Vlad Guerrero, among others! (players in RED are my 1st choices)
One player for me that is close is Graig Nettles. He was considered if not the top defensive 3rd baseman than 2nd & was a very dangerous hitter through out his career! Someone to think about!

Certainly, but can't there be a chance that no studs exist in a given era? I have no doubt there are other players beyond Rizzuto who are in the Hall, but whose stats don't support their election (or appointment, as the case may be). As smug as I think the BBWAA voters are, I think the Veterans Committee should only be used for the players who the BBWAA whiffed on. Perhaps they should only vote on players who reach 70%.

BTW, Reese was not a BBWAA inductee either. He never reached 48% of the vote. He 1984 VC inductee.

By the numbers, Jackie Robinson may not have been a Hall of Famer. The difference is that he was so revolutionary to the game, it would have been a travesty if the BBWAA didn't vote him in. His contribution transcends baseball. It's a sham as it is (albeit not altogether surprising, considering the prevailing climate of racism in 1962) that he didn't get more than 78% of the vote in the first place.

 

[stwainfan]

As a player he would deserve to be in the HOF. I am speaking about his play on the field. He did break the rules. So I understand his being banned. What do you guys think should guys who used PED's get in the HOF.

 

[Alydar]

As a player he would deserve to be in the HOF. I am speaking about his play on the field. He did break the rules. So I understand his being banned. What do you guys think should guys who used PED's get in the HOF.

I think that if they are kept out then all the players who used amphetamines (greenies) who are in the HOF should be removed. There is a long history of BB players using drugs to enhance performance but it was ignored by both the league and the media. Steroids are just the latest example. My approach to all this is to enjoy the sports and refrain from turning the athletes into heroic figures. Web cams, phone video recorders and the internet have made it difficult for the private lives of athletes kept from the public. Today's athletes are probably no worse than in the past. They just perform in an era where the media can't protect them as well as it was done in the past.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

Personally I'm against PED users getting in the HofF and the HofF members were polled and they are to a man against the drugees getting in! But MLB screwed itself by looking the other way for so long that a lot of players are undocumented PED users! What peeves me about this is almost all the PED users most likely had the careers previously that if they would have remained clean they would have been voted in!
And even though not proved PED users, like Clemens, Bonds, and others bodies changed dramatically to what a typical Steroid heavy user would look like, so they condemn themselves! Almost all these players are Class A individuals that arrogant personality wouldn't allow other players to have better years than them, so they used PED's to remain on top! It's tough to vote out undocumented PED users even though you're 99% they're guilty!
I hate that users are so arrogant and all that they ruin a great game such as Baseball, and the stats no longer can be trusted! And that is why I also hate the attention A-Roid is getting for passing such great players as Ruth, Gehrig, Aaron, Mays, etal when ALL his stats are not to be trusted! He is supposed to be the only other player than Hank Aaron to have over 2,000 RBI's when in reality he might have 900 to 1,000 while playing clean!
I would have loved if Yankee management had the "stones" in Spring Training to release A-Roid and say he's a liar, & a cheat and doesn't deserve to wear a ML uniform! And ate the $61 million in salary! They've thrown away $61 million before, it wouldn't have been the 1st time and it would have made quite a statement! Now the "talking suits" are building A-Roid up to be the resurrected Christ for his comeback year!

 

[UcMiami]

The drug issue is a lot different in my mind partly because pro players in all sports have been using drugs of various kinds since the beginning of time - most amphetamines followed by HGH and Steroids. Where I do draw the line is when the various authorities started being serious about them. I find it similar to the other changes - dead ball, lowering the mound, artificial turf - and not dissimilar to the guys corking bats and throwing spitters. There were probably a few ball players who were completely clean before the crack down, but which ones ...

And obviously the ones that got nailed are the ones that will pay, and the ones that are 'suspect' probably pay as well. But pitchers and hitters were both using drugs and I am not sure you can simply throw away 15 years of the game.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

As a player he would deserve to be in the HOF. I am speaking about his play on the field. He did break the rules. So I understand his being banned. What do you guys think should guys who used PED's get in the HOF.

Hell no!