OT: Pete Rose Bet as a Player

[8893]

The Hall of Fame is a museum. Rose, Bonds, Clemens, etc. were a significant part of the sport's history, whether you like what they did or not. It doesn't make sense to me to remove a large portion of the sport's history from its largest and most comprehensive museum.

Do you understand that Rose's accomplishments are fully recognized and chronicled in that museum? As I posted above, he is acknowledged throughout as the holder of the records he achieved. It is impossible to miss him there, and his role in the sport's history is not "removed." Not by a long shot.

That's what I don't get about the uproar over him not being inducted with a bust in the actual Hall section of the museum. The museum itself is no less comprehensive for it.

I think he'll get into the Hall, but only after he has died. He agreed to a lifetime ban from baseball and these new revelations aren't going to motivate anyone to change their minds while he's alive. And that seems like a reasonable deal to me; again, especially seeing as that's the deal to which he agreed. It really doesn't get any more complicated than that for me.

 

[StoweD210]

I'm no Pete fan but as hit leader he deserves to be inducted..... But not while he is alive. I fully understand those who never want to see him in there. The Hall presents a lot of problems because you have players like Bill Mazerowski ( who was good) in there along with Babe Ruth and Willie Mays, so it's never going to be a perfect place. BTW, for anyone who has never been to Cooperstown I urge you to go, but not when it is so crowded in the summer, maybe in the fall during mid week. Unbelievable setting.

Are you suggesting someone should kill Pete Rose?

 

[Rico444]

Do you understand that Rose's accomplishments are fully recognized and chronicled in that museum? As I posted above, he is acknowledged throughout as the holder of the records he achieved. It is impossible to miss him there, and his role in the sport's history is not "removed." Not by a long shot.

That's what I don't get about the uproar over him not being inducted with a bust in the actual Hall section of the museum. The museum itself is no less comprehensive for it.

I think he'll get into the Hall, but only after he has died. He agreed to a lifetime ban from baseball and these new revelations aren't going to motivate anyone to change their minds while he's alive. And that seems like a reasonable deal to me; again, especially seeing as that's the deal to which he agreed. It really doesn't get any more complicated than that for me.

The part of the museum with the busts is reserved for the best players in the history of the game. Trying to pretend Rose, Bonds, etc. aren't some of the best players in baseball history is NOT fully recognizing their accomplishments.

 

[Husky25]

The part of the museum with the busts is reserved for the best players in the history of the game. Trying to pretend Rose, Bonds, etc. aren't some of the best players in baseball history is NOT fully recognizing their accomplishments.

The Hall of Fame is not a museum. The Hall of Fame is a hall. The attached building is the museum. It's is even distinguished in the name: The National Baseball Hall of Fame AND Museum.

 

[jibsey]

Are you suggesting someone should kill Pete Rose?

He doesn't deserve to enjoy his induction if it happens. Some players are inducted after death, but I wish him a long and healthy life. He can watch from the field of dreams, maybe go in with shoeless Joe.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

The Hall of Fame is not a museum. The Hall of Fame is a hall. The attached building is the museum. It's is even distinguished in the name: The National Baseball Hall of Fame AND Museum.

It's a better name than Lexington, Kentucky's "International Museum of the Horse and Gift Shop," as the sign outside says.

 

[Rico444]

The Hall of Fame is not a museum. The Hall of Fame is a hall. The attached building is the museum. It's is even distinguished in the name: The National Baseball Hall of Fame AND Museum.

Now we're just arguing semantics. For all intents and purposes, it is a museum.

 

[Rico444]

It's a better name than Lexington, Kentucky's "International Museum of the Horse and Gift Shop," as the sign outside says.

I hope people are careful there; you know what they say about looking a gift shop horse in the mouth.

 

[Husky25]

Now we're just arguing semantics. For all intents and purposes, it is a museum.

And all those people you mentioned are prominently displayed in the museum.

That said...I personally I think the BBWAA takes itself WAY too seriously, but again, it is what it is. They are the gatekeepers of the Hall. I have no strong opinion either way if they want to elect suspected users in to the Hall. So far, as a voting body, they have chosen otherwise. However, if they do at one point elect a suspected user, I'd think the suspicion should be engraved into the plaque.

 

[storrsroars]

Well, they could add a "gamblers" section and a "juicers" section and have busts for those guys in those areas. Then move the racists out of the main hall into their own area, then the alcoholics, the wife beaters, the greenie users, the spitballers and so on and so forth until you're just left with Seaver and Maddox

 

[DCHuskyFan]

Are you suggesting someone should kill Pete Rose?

No, but faking his own death might move things along.

I would also argue that Shoeless Joe is more famous for his exclusion than he ever would have been had he been inducted.

 

[Husky25]

Well, they could add a "gamblers" section and a "juicers" section and have busts for those guys in those areas. Then move the racists out of the main hall into their own area, then the alcoholics, the wife beaters, the greenie users, the spitballers and so on and so forth until you're just left with Seaver and Maddox

Didn't Bowie Kuhn want to do something like this with a certain subset of players?

 

[Rico444]

And all those people you mentioned are prominently displayed in the museum.

That said...I personally I think the BBWAA takes itself WAY too seriously, but again, it is what it is. They are the gatekeepers of the Hall. I have no strong opinion either way if they want to elect suspected users in to the Hall. So far, as a voting body, they have chosen otherwise. However, if they do at one point elect a suspected user, I'd think the suspicion should be engraved into the plaque.

I guess we are going to argue semantics. The "Hall of Fame," whether it's covered in the "museum" part of the name, is by and large a museum. It houses the greatest players ever to play the game, and gives some history about what they did that made them great. I just don't see much of a difference between that and any other museum.

 

[huskiesouth]

Amen
...and @Huskysouth, I never heard Pete Rose bet against his own team. Where did you read that?

Here

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/rose-bet-against-his-own-team-alleges-lawyer-1.330492

So maybe he did not, I may be wrong.

It should be remembered that Rose agreed to his ban - in writing.

But having been a lawyer since probably before you were born, reading this and other articles, I think that Attorney Dowd, after producing a 225-page draft of his report backed by seven volumes of documents including betting slips signed by Rose, asked for more time to drive in the last nail to Roses's coffin, proof that he bet against his own team. Instead Commissioner Giamatti went to Rose's lawyers and offered the deal that was taken - Rose agreed in writing to indefinite suspension, all records were sealed (this is why until yesterday no one knew he also bet while a player) and Dowd was told to stop investigating.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Its interesting reading that old article, he might have gotten his lifetime ban lifted and gotten back into baseball at the time, but that ship has long since sailed. That's the real loss if you are Peter Edward Rose, but I'm sure the HOF also stings.

I don't think he ever bet against the Reds as player or manager, but if they have evidence of that then he's gotta be out of baseball forever and with it the HOF. Generally speaking though, I'm with those that say its a museum and unless there's some banishment rule that strikes his records and everything else Pete Rose is essentially 'part' of the HOF even though not an elected HOFamer. And absolutely the upshot of all of this is that he's more talked about and more relevant than similar players because of his controversy. Its similar for Shoeless Joe and Ty Cobb, the former talked about because he's not in and the latter talked about b/c he was an .

 

[Scottzer]

I've thought of Rose as being a ever since reading an article (SI?) many years ago. But, I really have no problem with him betting on his own team to win. If he exclusively bet on them to win - there's no fixing, just extra incentive to make sure your team wins.

Unrelated - while in college and working at Foxwoods, we once had both Don King and Pete rose in the restaurant at the same time. They noticed each other and left their tables and shook hands. I have never personally seen such a high quotient in one room, and doubt I will again. It was amazing.

 

[Husky25]

I've thought of Rose as being a ever since reading an article (SI?) many years ago. But, I really have no problem with him betting on his own team to win. If he exclusively bet on them to win - there's no fixing, just extra incentive to make sure your team wins.

Unrelated - while in college and working at Foxwoods, we once had both Don King and Pete rose in the restaurant at the same time. They noticed each other and left their tables and shook hands. I have never personally seen such a high quotient in one room, and doubt I will again. It was amazing.

1. Mario Soto disagrees with Rose's "extra incentive."

2. Rose allegedly was in bed with organized crime and did not bet on the Reds every night (I read that he only bet on the Reds when his top two pitchers were throwing). That begs the question, that if he wasn't betting, and was in debt to No-necks, did he manage differently to give his team a better shot at losing in order to spare his knuckles the ball-peen hammer? Even if he didn't (again Mario Soto disagrees), Rose leaves himself wide open.

 

[Scottzer]

I dunno. If I were a manager and allowed to bet on my team, I'd do so with my best pitchers. But, to not bet on them every game certainly opens a lot of dark doors.