OT: Paterno statue taken down

[Icebear]

The $30 million dollars in fines to what end. To the NCAA coffers? To be distributed to causes addressing cild sexual abuse. A $30 million fine can just be institutional robbery and nothing else.

And what happens if Tim Curley stands up on the stand and says he never told Joe any of the details about what was happening only that a plan had been formulated and admits that he and Schultz were the only ones involved in "managing" the Jerry Sandusky situation. Remember according to the Freeh report Curley is the only one who spoke directly to Joe and reported to the others what Joe supposedly said without to date quoting Joe.

 

[Vowelguy]

The death penalty rould be the least appropriate penalty. Here's a partial list of innocent people who could be punished:

So what?

Suppose there's a mass murderer who's a good family man to his 10 kids. Should we let him go free b/c the innocent kids would be affected?

I'm sure 95% of the workers at Enron had nothing to do with the shenanigans. And yet they lost their jobs. Such is life.

There's always collateral damage. It is irrelvant to handing out justice.

 

[Vowelguy]

The death penalty rould be the least appropriate penalty. Here's a partial list of innocent people who could be punished:

• About 5,000 workers in or near Beaver Stadium, earning paychecks and in some cases livelihoods.
• About a half a million PSU alumni. The entire current student body.
• All players on the PSU roster. Sure, they could transfer but maybe they spent their youth wanting to grow up and attend Penn State.
• Every team on the PSU schedule. They would all lose money and all non-revenue producing sports (including women's basketball, for sure) would face budget cuts at best and possible extinction.
• Thousands of Pennsylvanians who operate restaurants, motels, or shops.
• Suppliers and vendors (how many hot dogs with buns and napkins and mustard or ketchup can 105,000 people consume).
• New coaching staff at PSU. The list above is partial but comprises only innocents who may have been guilty of loving a coach who won a lot of games but who could not possibly have had a clue about Sandusky's crimes or those in positions of power who kept a lid on.

It's not like it's either the death penalty or nothing. The NCAA has many options and I hope they exercise them in such a way as to punish sufficiently to set PSU up as an example, yet do it with focus on reform. Few things would be better for college sports than for PSU to become a shining example -- in all respects -- rather than merely a disgraced giant.


Punishment, yes. Reform, absolutely. Death penalty, not practical and unfair to too many innocents. There are abundant alternatives that will surely be effective. I hope the NCAA applies them immediately and unflinchingly.

One of the main reasons for the scandal was that the powers that be determined that the revenue and money stream of the FB program had to be protected at all costs. And what better way for PSU to show that it has learned its lesson than by not suspending the program, because the revenue and money stream of the FB program has to be protected.

 

[Kibitzer]

So what?

Suppose there's a mass murderer who's a good family man to his 10 kids. Should we let him go free b/c the innocent kids would be affected?

I'm sure 95% of the workers at Enron had nothing to do with the shenanigans. And yet they lost their jobs. Such is life.

There's always collateral damage. It is irrelvant to handing out justice.

You make a good point, but I cannot agree that there is "always" collateral damage. Often, perhaps, but not always. And I believe it is to be avoided wherever possible. Let's look at your two examples for a moment.

The mass murderer must be incarcerated, but does that really punish the ten kids? By removing him from their household, they are no longer in the custody of a mass murderer. Society has an obligation to make sure the kids are somehow provided for so they will not be punished.

Sad to see Enron employees be displaced but they are victims of misfortune, just like farmers overcome by a drought, workers toiling to manufacture a product that won't sell, or any of the many unfortunate workers who are laid off through no fault of their own. Call it punishment if you wish but I don't share your view.

In the case of Penn State, why not strive to punish the university or its football "program" in such a way as to avoid punishing many thousands of innocents. I believe that is the approach to take, if at all possible.

Be reminded that I never suggested withholding punishment of PSU, just aim it at the guilty (e.g., trustees et al) with more precision.

Let's see what happens tomorrow at 9 a.m. when the NCAA drops the hammer.

 

[EricLA]

So what?

Suppose there's a mass murderer who's a good family man to his 10 kids. Should we let him go free b/c the innocent kids would be affected?

I'm sure 95% of the workers at Enron had nothing to do with the shenanigans. And yet they lost their jobs. Such is life.

There's always collateral damage. It is irrelvant to handing out justice.

Couldn't agree more with you. and Enron is a perfect example. But because this is big time football we're supposed to look the other way?

 

[cardfan]

agree about Enron, too many Californians suffered due to their fraud and stealing money from us and CA companies.

btw, I follow ex MD wrestler, Hudson Taylor see BIO on Twitter, he goes by hudsonism. He had a great tweet:

"To everyone upset about Joe Paterno's statue being taken down: Just look the other way and pretend it's not happening."

 

[diggerfoot]

I'm not wise enough to know what is the best penalty for PSU, particularly if it involves "death" or not. I do know a little bit about "death" in general from my walk across the country. Boom and bust affects many economies, particularly the extraction industries. Nevada is littered with towns that were once in the thousands and are gone or in the single digits. Yet businesses in general, from Mom & Pops to Enron, eventually get the "death penalty" as administered by the fates. That is life, but fortunately we are one of the most adaptable species on earth, and people can adapt to economic hardships if an economy favors the small incremental steps necessary to do so. However, we've developed a mindset of heroic incentives and legislation to protect large businesses from "death" because of the thousands of "innocents" involved. Over the past forty years these protections in sum total have not worked out well for even the "innocents" in an economy that increasingly commands protections for the large at the expense of the small.

Should PSU get the death penalty? I'm not wise enough to know that, but I know it is unwise to protect unwieldy entities for the sake of "innocents" if the overall system works better particularly for the "innocents" without those protections. You never know what happens to the football player who has to transfer; maybe they end up with more playing time or an education more relevant to their interests. The janitor dependent on football is a little more problematic, because once again we've commanded an economy towards favoring large entities, but that janitor's lot could conceivably improve as well. One of my favorite sayings is "Out of loss comes opportunity," appropriate for such an adaptable species. I've had to apply it a few times to my life.

 

[Icebear]

So what?

Suppose there's a mass murderer who's a good family man to his 10 kids. Should we let him go free b/c the innocent kids would be affected?

I'm sure 95% of the workers at Enron had nothing to do with the shenanigans. And yet they lost their jobs. Such is life.

There's always collateral damage. It is irrelvant to handing out justice.

Civil justice is not the NCAA's work. This is not an issue of athletics. It is the work of the courts, criminal and civil. Simple as that. The NCAA's job in this is to design in advance clear definable procedures for there member institutions to follow and for which they were accountable.

Collateral damage is never irrelevant to handing out justice in any ethics class. Ever since the Augustian principles of just war were established. It is something required to be minimized and avoided when possible, otherwise it is little different than the crime. There was no Enron left for those employees either way the company had imploded. Enron's damage was humongously broad in the damage that the corporation did. It was not the courts that had taken away their jobs it was the "smartest men in the room." The courts were faced with the question of was there anything salvageable since the money was gone and the capital assets sold off and misrepresented in a series of accounting sleight of hand. The damage to innocents in the aftermath of Enron was not done by the courts but Enron.

The situation at PSU is not the same in that all of the assets are still in place. The question becomes how do one direct those assets to achieve the right end and what is that right end. That the NCAA end up with $30 million in fines reducing the school's ability to make recompense to the real victims of Jerry Sandusky. I don't think so. Any application of the NCAA's fine must be directed to the right goals or else it is just a shakedown.

On the other hand the pressure seems to be increasing on our governor who has been involved in this from the beginning and who had ample opportunities of his own to intervene.

 

[Icebear]

A posting from Chicago to PennLive today.

LINK

 

[meyers7]

Civil justice is not the NCAA's work. This is not an issue of athletics. It is the work of the courts, criminal and civil. Simple as that. The NCAA's job in this is to design in advance clear definable procedures for there member institutions to follow and for which they were accountable.

Collateral damage is never irrelevant to handing out justice in any ethics class. Ever since the Augustian principles of just war were established. It is something required to be minimized and avoided when possible, otherwise it is little different than the crime. There was no Enron left for those employees either way the company had imploded. Enron's damage was humongously broad in the damage that the corporation did. It was not the courts that had taken away their jobs it was the "smartest men in the room." The courts were faced with the question of was there anything salvageable since the money was gone and the capital assets sold off and misrepresented in a series of accounting sleight of hand. The damage to innocents in the aftermath of Enron was not done by the courts but Enron.

Agreed. I think this is a job for the courts, not the NCAA. Besides when have they ever done anything to benefit anyone but themselves?

 

[SubbaBub]

The Enron analogy is erroneous. Enron collapsed because the business was a fraud, not because of some punishment handed out.

As for the murder, he's put in jail. His wife and kids are not meted out a separate punishment, they are free to move forward to the best of their ability.



Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

 

[OneTrickPony]

So what?

Suppose there's a mass murderer who's a good family man to his 10 kids. Should we let him go free b/c the innocent kids would be affected?

I'm sure 95% of the workers at Enron had nothing to do with the shenanigans. And yet they lost their jobs. Such is life.

There's always collateral damage. It is irrelvant to handing out justice.

FYI...there were 10,000 employees at Enron...maybe 20 employees and the whole Board of Directors were to blame...the traders gaming the California IXO were a small handful of ex-frat boys acquired with the purchase of Portland General Electric. Idiots, but not in Sandusky's class.

The men at the top management level of Enron...they're in jail so you know who they are...were a bunch of crooks...no question, and they destroyed the lives of many employees...particularly those too old to start over. Don't worry about the traders and unindicted partners...they're all doing fine. But the employess had most of their 401(k) Plans in Enron stock and they lost everything.

I think the Board at Enron is the best analogy to the Board of Trustees at PSU. Ken Lay barely ever made an appearance, and the inside skinny was he was in so far over his head he couldn't see the surface anymore. He, and the other directors, were guilty of the worst corporate governance...and I think the PSU Board has a lot of the same personalities. The ex-Chairman's letter the Board couldn't have punctuated it a worse way!

 

[Bestiarius]

To me, the role of the NCAA is to supervise college athletics. They are more like a parent than a judge or juror. They don’t need the same level of proof that would be required in a court of law. Their goal is to make college athletics as clean as possible.

A parent knows when a child has committed a transgression. Emails, eye witnesses, confessions aren’t necessary and usually aren’t available anyway. To me this is the environment in which the NCAA handed down its sanctions and in which Penn State agreed to accept punishment, like a basically good child would.

Joe Pa ruled the roost. He asked for people to be fired who got in his way. He threatened the university when they desired to have him retire. People knew that if they crossed him, they would end up with the Happy Valley version of cement boots. He demanded to mete out his own punishment when players transgressed. Basically, he was the Don of Happy Valley. In that environment, McQueary would not have gone over Paterno’s head in this environment.

The Freeh investigators got a lot of information by just walking around and talking to so many people. Thankfully, they weren’t required to make a legal case. All that was required is to get the truth. I think they succeeded.