OT/OT: National Anthem - H.S. & College Athletes - USA Basketball & Olympics

[Plebe]

Drop in on a VFW post and start a discussion. When it comes to protesting the anthem or the flag it really comes down to 3 simple questions -
1. Is the protest protected speech
2. Does the protest offend many people
3. Is it disrespectful to the majority of those that served

My answer is yes to all 3. For me the last question is the one that counts.

That is great, and more power to you for having arrived at the best answer for you. Other people arrive at different best answers for them.

(ETA: And by "answer" I mean the best set of questions and answers. Much depends on which questions each person feels are the most relevant to ask, and those, of course, will vary by individual.)

 

[gandydancer]

Thanks to the sacrifices of our military, anyone has the right to peaceful protest , no matter how offensive it may be. However, those of us who feel strongly about disrespect to our country or our flag have our own means of protest. If the athletes or coaches take a knee or raise a fist during the Anthem, it will be the the last ticket I will buy for that sport, and I have been a multi-sport season ticket holder for many years. The coaches and athletes sometimes forget that they are simply entertainers. If they cease to entertain there are many ways to spend an entertainment dollar.

 

[Alydar]

When did a protest over police shooting unarmed minorities morph into a question of patriotism?

This reminds me of the insults, threats and accusations of being a traitor I heard in 1968, protesting the US's presence in SE Asia. By 1972 the majority of the nation felt the war was wrong.
The flag and the anthem and the pledge are tools of indoctrination, not proof of ones patriotism, and IMO are used to lead us down the path to authoritarianism. America isn't a religion. There was a time it stood for freedom but we now live in what has become a dictatorship masked by a facade of democracy. This hasn't been the land of the free for 15 years. On 9/11 Bush/Cheney invoked "continuity of government" rules, intended to be used in case of invasion or nuclear war, which in effect suspended the bill of rights, making it's enforcement at the discretion of our executive. The Patriot Act was passed to avoid the imposition of martial law. And we still live under those rules. Any US citizen can be taken into custody and denied habeas corpus and all rights to privacy indefinitely. And I don't think that our leaders are sending our military over the world to protect our freedom because that freedom doesn't exist. They are there to protect commerce and the expansion of US corporations. Our soldiers aren't dying for "America", they are dying for corporate profits. And while I mourn the dead I refuse to honor the reason for their deaths. The spilling of American blood doesn't automatically mean it was spilled in a just cause.

This country was founded by people who were all traitors to the British Crown under their law. And those first US citizens are rolling in their graves hearing people suggest that anyone who doesn't stand at attention, hold their hand over their heart and support anything their leaders choose to do deserves to be shunned and condemned.

 

[reno tony]

Gabby is a great kid, but still just a kid. She can't know what most of us know about our heroic, yet bloody history. She can't see the world through our lens, nor we through hers. I seriously doubt Gabby would intentionally be disrespectful to any person, let alone a disabled veteran, or any veteran.

For the passionate youth, rebellion is intrinsic, but it takes courage to act on that rebellion. This is why the majority stay silent, most are not courageous. The courageous youth wants to be heard. They want to right wrongs. They want to make their mark. Oh, how I long for that energy again. Gabby is definitely one of the courageous, UConn fans will attest to that. I'm sure we Boneyarders wouldn't want it any other way. Thank you for your courage on the court, Gabby.

Gabby is likely following her heart and doing what she believes is noble. She wants to right wrongs. She wants to be heard. She wants to make a difference. But the courageousness of the passionate youth has a way at times of coming back to haunt them in the future. Consequences. History is legion with examples. We may all have a few of our own. But this is really the crux of the intention for starting this thread. Do these kids really understand that their actions during our national anthem can, and does, cause hurt and disrespect to many others? I can only hope the answer to that question is NO. Frankly, I hope they get a pass for their "youthfulness" in the future. But, for some people, memories are long, and some will surely pay a price.

I hope Gabby is not one of them.

[Note: I was aware of Gabby's "protest" before I started this thread. I saw it. But I didn't want to mention her by name or make this solely about her. Since her name was eventually mentioned though, I thought it was only fair to clarify a bit.]

Through my lens it is extremely disrespectful and unless she has been living in a cave the last three months she should know that is the perception a lot of people have. She is no kid either. She is older than a lot of the men and women that have sworn an oath to defend this country and sacrificed their lives and limbs bearing that flag. When the game airs on Monday I hope they show the Anthem Ceremony so I may see for myself. And to answer the original question if it would affect my vote if I were on a selection committee.... well, I guess you probably figured out my answer.

 

[BostonCanuck]

Good picture here from a recent Hartford Current article that shows Gabby during the national anthem during the Pace game.

UConn Women's Insider: Geno Likes To Toughen Them Up Early, So No Surprises Later

Had she taken a knee, I personally would have been offended. I also would have been surprised, because she is representing her team and her university in these situations, and I don't think the coaching staff would want to see a political statement so overt as that. As it is, she's probably had discussions with the coaches about this, and I think they've struck the right balance in terms of how she could express herself without going too far. We all know Geno was supportive of his Olympians such as Tina Charles and her involvement in this movement over the summer, and yet those players never did anything (to my knowledge) that could be interpreted by some as disrespectful while wearing the Team USA uniform. I would chalk this up to another example of how good Geno and his coaching staff are with these great young women.

 

[BroadwayVa]

[/

While I'm not much of a Holly fan I do appreciate her decision--I'm sure she made known to her team of their rights under the Constitution.
And while she and/or the University expect them to accept the decision--they have the right, maybe duty, to express their beliefs outside of the BB program.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Undoubtedly true. But that does not invalidate the feelings of the larger majority of veterans who may be disappointed/offended/insulted.

I only speak for me--but as an American--if you believe in the words written by the founding Fathers--Protest (which came with the birth of the USA) is accepted by the first amendment--no one has to like protest, I don't, but American thrive on the ability to protest as a right. Take away a right from SOME--soon it will be ALL.

 

[Kaizen]

In an interview with Dori Monson on KIRO radio in Seattle, the Republican presidential candidate said that maybe America just isn’t the right place for the quarterback.

“I think it’s personally not a good thing, I think it’s a terrible thing. And, you know, maybe he should find a country that works better for him. Let him try, it won’t happen.”

Will the next President ask Colin to find another country to live?

 

[j66kicker]

In an interview with Dori Monson on KIRO radio in Seattle, the Republican presidential candidate said that maybe America just isn’t the right place for the quarterback.

“I think it’s personally not a good thing, I think it’s a terrible thing. And, you know, maybe he should find a country that works better for him. Let him try, it won’t happen.”

Will the next President ask Colin to find another country to live?

Well, he says he'll be gearing up his deportation machinery, so who knows?

 

[cbraarj]

Why cant people protest but still honor the Men and Women of Our Great Nation that have fought for Our Freedoms over 240 years. This will never go away unfortunately because there will always be people that in their opinion think that nothing has ever changed. If people think this way today then open your eyes because in 2008 Barack Obama was elected President. Our Armed Forces should be treated with unconditional love! They fought for our flag, Constitution and the citizens of The United States. Also the right for people to protest. So Respect these Soldiers because without them there would be no rights for any of us !

 

[cbraarj]

Willie Gold I have stood for the Black National Athem. I am a White Guy who grew up respecting everyone! You asking that question shows me you didnt!

 

[meyers7]

When the national anthem is played I stand, take off my hat if wearing one, and basically stand at parade rest. It would never enter my mind to place my hand over my heart.

Why would that never enter your mind?

 

[bags27]

Good picture here from a recent Hartford Current article that shows Gabby during the national anthem during the Pace game.

UConn Women's Insider: Geno Likes To Toughen Them Up Early, So No Surprises Later

Had she taken a knee, I personally would have been offended. I also would have been surprised, because she is representing her team and her university in these situations, and I don't think the coaching staff would want to see a political statement so overt as that. As it is, she's probably had discussions with the coaches about this, and I think they've struck the right balance in terms of how she could express herself without going too far. We all know Geno was supportive of his Olympians such as Tina Charles and her involvement in this movement over the summer, and yet those players never did anything (to my knowledge) that could be interpreted by some as disrespectful while wearing the Team USA uniform. I would chalk this up to another example of how good Geno and his coaching staff are with these great young women.

An extremely difficult, emotional issue for everyone of us. We all bring different perspectives and no one is going to convince another. While I struggle with this, too, I think BostonCanuck best voices my position. We don't know Gabby's personal history, what brings her to make her decisions, but we do trust Geno & Company to come to do the best for the team and the University, so we should assume that Geno has listened to Gabby and has agreed that this is the best solution for everyone. I'm confident that the team supports Gabby's decision just as Gabby supports the decision of the rest of her teammates.

 

[lne001]

Why would that never enter your mind?

To me it has always been a foolish gesture, placing your hand over the muscle that pumps blood through the body (and which is located in the center of your torso, not the left side). If one truly wanted to acknowledge the source of their humanity and emotions they would place their hand over their brain, which of course would look ridiculous (which is how I see hands over heart). Only my personal opinion, of course, having no import to anyone else.

 

[vtcwbuff]

"When did a protest over police shooting unarmed minorities morph into a question of patriotism?"

Williams would be better served if she were to educate herself about the true goals of the BLM protests and the real facts about police shootings. Then she might instead protest the thousands (5000+ in 2014) of blacks (including innocent children) killed every year by other blacks.

But then I guess those lives didn't matter.

 

[Plebe]

"When did a protest over police shooting unarmed minorities morph into a question of patriotism?"

Williams would be better served if she were to educate herself about the true goals of the BLM protests and the real facts about police shootings. Then she might instead protest the thousands (5000+ in 2014) of blacks (including innocent children) killed every year by other blacks.

But then I guess those lives didn't matter.

Or, she might realize that there is a massive qualitative difference between the phenomenon of homicide committed by agents of the State against unarmed civilians and the phenomenon of homicide among civilians. Protesting one does not negate or diminish the other.

 

[UcMiami]

VTCW - all I can say is WOW.

Mods - please lock this thread