OT - Multiple sources reporting investigation of Patriots

[noeynox]

So we're just going to ignore the elephant in the room that NE could have been pulling this crap in the Baltimore game? Or was that game a blowout too?

this just it, we didn't hear about this last week, why? that was a much closer game.

 

[dsturdy5]

The NFL is claiming that a ball was taken out of circulation mid way through the game. Could it simply be that there was something wrong with the ball?

If it were any other team, this doesn't even become a story. It is the Patriots and the "spygate" story that was blown way out of proportion some how still carries weight in the media. Aside from filming hand signals (which is legal, just not from where they were doing it), what else have they done that is "cheating"?

 

[Bonehead]

The NFL is claiming that a ball was taken out of circulation mid way through the game. Could it simply be that there was something wrong with the ball?

If it were any other team, this doesn't even become a story. It is the Patriots and the "spygate" story that was blown way out of proportion some how still carries weight in the media. Aside from filming hand signals (which is legal, just not from where they were doing it), what else have they done that is "cheating"?

Then would that not be illegal??

If the Patriots did cheat, it would not be the first time. The team was penalized a first-round draft pick, fined $250,000 and head coach Belichick was personally fined $500,000 after an investigation by the NFL determined the team had illegally videotaped their opponents hand signals during a 2007 game.
And unsubstantiated accusations of cheating have long dogged the team, stemming from their Super Bowl wins in 2002, 2004 and 2005. The St. Louis Rams claimed the team illegally videotaped their walk-through practices prior to the 2002 game, and players on the other defeated opponents have said the Patriots seemed to have inside knowledge of their playbooks.

Per Fox News

 

[dsturdy5]

They were not accused of filming a practice. They were accused by a disgruntled former employee of filming a walk through. Yet, no tape ever existed. That was proven to be false, yet it is reported as fact.

The filmed from the sideline instead of the end zone covered box. Illegal? Sure. So is hands to the face, holding, pass interference...

Again, where is the cheating?

 

[dsturdy5]

Also, just heard Dean Blandino on NFL Network say it is not unheard of for balls to get pulled out of circulation and be removed then the ball is investigated. It happens fairly regularly.

 

[Bonehead]

They were not accused of filming a practice. They were accused by a disgruntled former employee of filming a walk through. Yet, no tape ever existed. That was proven to be false, yet it is reported as fact.

The filmed from the sideline instead of the end zone covered box. Illegal? Sure. So is hands to the face, holding, pass interference...

Again, where is the cheating?

LOL!

Cheating is the getting of reward for ability by dishonest means or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation. It is generally used for the breaking of rules to gain unfair advantage in a competitive situation.

By definition they cheated in 2007.

 

[Bonehead]

Also, just heard Dean Blandino on NFL Network say it is not unheard of for balls to get pulled out of circulation and be removed then the ball is investigated. It happens fairly regularly.

Agreed it does - nothing has been proved with this allegation, its an allegation at this point.

 

[noeynox]

Its amazing, when the Pats lose, you never hear about this sheet. But when they win its because they have deflated balls. This sheet deflates my balls for sure.

 

[dsturdy5]

LOL!

Cheating is the getting of reward for ability by dishonest means or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation. It is generally used for the breaking of rules to gain unfair advantage in a competitive situation.

By definition they cheated in 2007.

So did the Jets in 2006 when the Pats caught them doing the same thing in the playoffs. So did the Cowboys as Jimmy Johnson admitted on Fox to doing the same thing. So did the Steelers under Cowher who did the same thing in the 1990's and 2000's. Where is the outrage for those three franchises?

 

[dsturdy5]

Agreed it does - nothing has been proved with this allegation, its an allegation at this point.

And honestly, I assume the NFL will sweep this under the rug. It comes down to protecting the brand.

 

[Bonehead]

So did the Jets in 2006 when the Pats caught them doing the same thing in the playoffs. So did the Cowboys as Jimmy Johnson admitted on Fox to doing the same thing. So did the Steelers under Cowher who did the same thing in the 1990's and 2000's. Where is the outrage for those three franchises?

ok - good to know. Start a thread bro!

Are you now admitting it was cheating or not, I am getting confused?


I dont know where the outrage is? Was there an NFL investigation? If so, what was the outcome? If not, Why not?

 

[Fishy]

The Patriots created the perception that they're willing to break the rules so when this sort of thing comes down the pike, they have to deal with it.

The reason this story grew legs is probably because most of us can picture the Patriots doing it.

 

[dsturdy5]

ok - good to know. Start a thread bro!

Are you now admitting it was cheating or not, I am getting confused?


I dont know where the outrage is? Was there an NFL investigation? If so, what was the outcome? If not, Why not?

What the Patriots' investigation in 2007 comes down to, was that BB ignored a memo that was sent out to all teams a week or two before. The NFL came down on that pretty darn hard as Goodell wanted to show he meant business. In the aftermath, you had Johnson and Cowher come out and say they did it too in their time and that it was pretty commonplace. Do you want the NFL to punish the Steelers and Cowboys for something former players did?

Fishy is correct, though. It is perception at this point and that's why this story has legs. If the false report the morning of Super Bowl 42 never comes out, and the NFL investigation goes the way it does, chances are people see this story today and roll their eyes. The fact that former players in the NFL media who lost to NE continually bring it up (Faulk, Warner, Bullock from Tennessee, LDT, etc) make it seem true.

The NFL investigated the Broncos for violating the salary cap in the mid-late 90's. They were guilty and stripped of a draft pick. You almost never hear about that. Why?

 

[BlueMAB]

The Pats cheat, they may not be the only team cheating, but they continue to be the only team getting caught. And using the fact other teams admitted to cheating as a defense is morally bankrupt. If your kid comes home with an F because he/she got caught cheating are you going to accept the excuse that 3 other kids in the class cheated too? "It's okay, just don't get caught next time." The Pats have a history of breaking the rules, whether or not it impacted the win last night doesn't matter. Nobody is suggesting they forfeit, but they are cheaters. And if you're going to be a fan of the Pats, just admit that they are cheaters and stop trying to rationalize their behavior as if fans of other teams should just accept their cheating.

 

[dsturdy5]

The Pats cheat, they may not be the only team cheating, but they continue to be the only team getting caught. And using the fact other teams admitted to cheating as a defense is morally bankrupt. If your kid comes home with an F because he/she got caught cheating are you going to accept the excuse that 3 other kids in the class cheated too? "It's okay, just don't get caught next time." The Pats have a history of breaking the rules, whether or not it impacted the win last night doesn't matter. Nobody is suggesting they forfeit, but they are cheaters. And if you're going to be a fan of the Pats, just admit that they are cheaters and stop trying to rationalize their behavior as if fans of other teams should just accept their cheating.

Two things...

1. As a teacher, if a kid cheats (mine or anyone else's) I hope the penalty is the same for all parties involved.

2. Let's say that the recording in 2007 was cheating, what have they done since then to be "cheaters"?

 

[HartfordHank]

I dont see where it states the visitor gets to use their own game balls...

Section 2


BALL SUPPLY


Each team will make 12 primary balls available for testing by the Referee two hours and 15 minutes prior to the starting time of the game to meet League requirements. The home team will also make 12 backup balls available for testing in all stadiums. In addition, the visitors, at their discretion, may bring 12 backup balls to be tested by the Referee for games held in outdoor stadiums. For all games, eight new footballs, sealed in a special box and shipped by the manufacturer to
the Referee, will be opened in the officials’ locker room two hours and 15 minutes prior to the starting time of the game.



These balls are to be specially marked by the Referee and used exclusively for the kicking game.
In the event a home team ball does not conform to specifications, or its supply is exhausted, the Referee shall secure a proper ball from the visitors and, failing that, use the best available ball. Any such circumstances must be reported to the Commissioner.
In case of rain or a wet, muddy, or slippery field, a playable ball shall be used at the request of t
he offensive team’s center.



The Game Clock shall not stop for such action (unless undue delay occurs).

Note: It is the responsibility of the home team to furnish playable balls at all times by attendants from either side of the playing
field.


OFFICIAL NFL


'An underinflated or deflated ball would be easier to grip, which would have been advantageous in the pouring rain Sunday night.'

Ball

1. The home club shall have 36 balls for outdoor games and 24 for indoor games available for testing with a pressure gauge by the referee two hours prior to the starting time of the game to meet with League requirements. Twelve (12) new footballs, sealed in a special box and shipped by the manufacturer, will be opened in the officials’ locker room two hours prior to the starting time of the game. These balls are to be specially marked with the letter "k" and used exclusively for the kicking game.

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/ball

 

[CL82]

LOL!

Cheating is the getting of reward for ability by dishonest means or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation. It is generally used for the breaking of rules to gain unfair advantage in a competitive situation.

By definition they cheated in 2007.

By definition so does every other team whenever they are accessed a penalty. Bunch of cheaters...

 

[Bonehead]

By definition so does every other team whenever they are accessed a penalty. Bunch of cheaters...

Agreed - I always yell 'cheaters' when the flag is thrown against UConns opposing team...

 

[Bonehead]

Ball

1. The home club shall have 36 balls for outdoor games and 24 for indoor games available for testing with a pressure gauge by the referee two hours prior to the starting time of the game to meet with League requirements. Twelve (12) new footballs, sealed in a special box and shipped by the manufacturer, will be opened in the officials’ locker room two hours prior to the starting time of the game. These balls are to be specially marked with the letter "k" and used exclusively for the kicking game.

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/ball

So does each team use its own ball or teams use the balls supplied by the home team?

 

[CL82]

Ball

1. The home club shall have 36 balls for outdoor games and 24 for indoor games available for testing with a pressure gauge by the referee two hours prior to the starting time of the game to meet with League requirements. Twelve (12) new footballs, sealed in a special box and shipped by the manufacturer, will be opened in the officials’ locker room two hours prior to the starting time of the game. These balls are to be specially marked with the letter "k" and used exclusively for the kicking game.

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/ball

So help me out are they alleging the Pats didn't have their balls available for testing, because that is all this rule talks about.

 

[dsturdy5]

So help me out are they alleging the Pats didn't have their balls available for testing, because that is all this rule talks about.

They are alleging one of the balls passed inspection prior to the start of the game but became unusable during the game. Again, the NFL says this happens pretty regularly.

 

[dsturdy5]

So does each team use its own ball or teams use the balls supplied by the home team?

I've seen this explained two different ways.

1. Each team uses its own balls.
2. The balls supplied by the teams are put into a pool and shared by the two teams during the game.

Not clear to me either way.

 

[UConn990411]

Also for those that say they beat them handily so it doesn't matter, then why would the Patriots need to resort to this in the first place? It's indefensible.

Lulz.

This story is really, really dumb.

 

[FAIRTIDES]

They were not accused of filming a practice. They were accused by a disgruntled former employee of filming a walk through. Yet, no tape ever existed. That was proven to be false, yet it is reported as fact.

The filmed from the sideline instead of the end zone covered box. Illegal? Sure. So is hands to the face, holding, pass interference...

Again, where is the cheating?

Fines, as outlined by ESPN, indicate somebody got caught doing something.

"NEW YORK -- New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick was fined the NFL maximum of $500,000 Thursday and the Patriots were ordered to pay $250,000 for spying on an opponent's defensive signals.

Commissioner Roger Goodell also ordered the team to give up its first-round draft choice next year if it reaches the playoffs this season, or its second- and third-round picks if it misses the postseason."

If innocence draws the above, guilt must be a bitch to deal with. Even the wealthy scream when dinged for a half-million.

 

[dsturdy5]

Fines, as outlined by ESPN, indicate somebody got caught doing something.

"NEW YORK -- New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick was fined the NFL maximum of $500,000 Thursday and the Patriots were ordered to pay $250,000 for spying on an opponent's defensive signals.

Commissioner Roger Goodell also ordered the team to give up its first-round draft choice next year if it reaches the playoffs this season, or its second- and third-round picks if it misses the postseason."

If innocence draws the above, guilt must be a bitch to deal with. Even the wealthy scream when dinged for a half-million.

I never said they didn't film signals, they didn't film practices. People throw it out there that they filmed the Rams like it's fact, they didn't. They did what numerous other teams did. They filmed signals from the sideline instead of from the end zone camera boxes (picture what is above the student section at the Rent).

My questions remain: What have they done since that to be labeled cheaters? Why don't people label other franchises who either admitted they did the same thing OR have been caught violating other league rules as cheaters?

 

[upstater]

While I truly hate the Pats each team uses it's own balls on offense. They submit 12 balls to the officials before the game for inspection and the balls are changed upon each change of possession (there are also separate ball for the kicking game hence the guy with the large red K vest on each sideline) so the Colts were using their own game balls.

You left out the most important part.

After the teams submit the ball for inspection 2 hours earlier, the refs then KEEP the balls until they hand them to the NFL ball assistant right before kickoff.

Indy is not used to playing in that kind of weather. They complained about the ball. If the ball is at the lower limit of 12 pounds, it could easily lose another 10% during the game.

 

[upstater]

Pretty sure nobody would argue that the Colts are nearly as good as the Patriots but that has nothing to do with the cheating. Everyone is supposed to play by the same rules. You say these desperate gates are growing tiresome, the explaining away of the Patriots cheating is also getting tiresome.

I am convinced you don't know the first thing about spygate. Not even a little clue what it was about.

 

[FAIRTIDES]

I never said they didn't film signals, they didn't film practices. People throw it out there that they filmed the Rams like it's fact, they didn't. They did what numerous other teams did. They filmed signals from the sideline instead of from the end zone camera boxes (picture what is above the student section at the Rent).

My questions remain: What have they done since that to be labeled cheaters? Why don't people label other franchises who either admitted they did the same thing OR have been caught violating other league rules as cheaters?

Probably nothing. To take it further, Bellichick now has other coaches chasing ghosts. It's right out of the Al Davis (young Al) play book. Every coach was sure Al was spying.

 

[upstater]

Fines, as outlined by ESPN, indicate somebody got caught doing something.

"NEW YORK -- New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick was fined the NFL maximum of $500,000 Thursday and the Patriots were ordered to pay $250,000 for spying on an opponent's defensive signals.

Commissioner Roger Goodell also ordered the team to give up its first-round draft choice next year if it reaches the playoffs this season, or its second- and third-round picks if it misses the postseason."

If innocence draws the above, guilt must be a bitch to deal with. Even the wealthy scream when dinged for a half-million.

So you're saying also that because the NCAA banned Uconn for the same offense for which they'd already been dinged, the fact of the ban proved Uconn was wrong.

 

[upstater]

The Pats cheat, they may not be the only team cheating, but they continue to be the only team getting caught. And using the fact other teams admitted to cheating as a defense is morally bankrupt. If your kid comes home with an F because he/she got caught cheating are you going to accept the excuse that 3 other kids in the class cheated too? "It's okay, just don't get caught next time." The Pats have a history of breaking the rules, whether or not it impacted the win last night doesn't matter. Nobody is suggesting they forfeit, but they are cheaters. And if you're going to be a fan of the Pats, just admit that they are cheaters and stop trying to rationalize their behavior as if fans of other teams should just accept their cheating.

How did the Patriots cheat in Spygate?