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OT: LeBron

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If Peyton Manning never won a Super Bowl, I don't think any of us would question how good a player and winner he was. I've never fully understood why people point to LeBron's never winning a title as being what is keeping him from being a great player. Maybe because it's literally the one thing they have left to criticize.
 
babysheep said:
If Peyton Manning never won a Super Bowl, I don't think any of us would question how good a player and winner he was. I've never fully understood why people point to LeBron's never winning a title as being what is keeping him from being a great player. Maybe because it's literally the one thing they have left to criticize.
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This is a straw-man argument. Nobody is saying that LeBron is not a great player: Everyone agrees that he is a great player. The point is that winning titles is one of the things that matters in terms of evaluating how great a player is, historically, compared to others that have played the game.

To put it as simply as possible: IMO there is no legitimate way to consider LeBron the greatest basketball player of all time if he never wins a title. I do think he will win at least one, so the point is likely to be moot sooner or later. But until then, his ceiling is "greatest player to never have won a title." Titles matter.
 
Meh. If Peyton had never won a title and retired, I'd still consider him the greatest QB of all time, given his sheer mental mastery of and control of the game, his incredible accuracy, and his poise.
 
8893 said:
Yes. There is always more that anyone could have done. In that instance, the "something more" would have been whatever was required to win.

My point is simple: I agree that it was a great individual performance irrespective of the result. But the fact that it was in a winning effort made it a greater performance.
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If you are only 1 piece of a team you don't control whether or not that effort is in a winning or losing effort.

If you are going to tell me you think more of Lebron if he goes 8 of 18 last night and they win than if he does what he did last night and they lose than more power to you. We can agree to disagree.
 
8893 said:
To put it as simply as possible: IMO there is no legitimate way to consider LeBron the greatest basketball player of all time if he never wins a title. I do think he will win at least one, so the point is likely to be moot sooner or later. But until then, his ceiling is "greatest player to never have won a title." Titles matter.
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Titles matter to you, not to me. I am a big fan of Lebron... If he wins a ring it's not going to change my opinion of him as a player at all.

If he plays like crap and Wade goes crazy and the Heat win it all and he gets his ring that way, by your standards he's somehow a more complete player, that's absurd.
 
Peyton Manning the best QB ever? ;)

Everybody is entitled to use whatever criteria they want for determination of "greatest."

If "winning the big games" and "leading team to championship success" are not part of the metric, then the list of GOAT contenders is going to look different.

I guess my ultimate "greatest" question is, you're putting together a team. Who is your first string QB?

You take Manning over Montana? Not me.
 
I find it absurd that anyone could consider an athlete to be GOAT in a team sport without considering whether they have ever assisted their team in winning that sport's ultimate prize.

I'm gonna guess that this is a bit of a generational thing. I was raised that winning as a team matters more than individual accomplishments; you know, the greater good and all that. It seems that younger generations are more fixed on individual accomplishments.

To each, their peach. I'll take winning, thank you.
 
If I were to build the greatest possible offense that would go against the greatest defense possible, I take Peyton Manning. When you have him under center, you have an automatic advantage in a guy who can already tell what the defense is going to do and can not only make the proper blocking commands/audibles/hotreads, but also make perfect throws after making those adjustments.

And let's be honest; has Peyton ever really had a Superbowl-caliber defense before?
 
Some good discussion going on here. Usually when LeBron's name comes up we've got a handful of posters saying things like, "He's a huge , he quit in Cleveland, never won anything", etc. etc.

For the record, LeBron's never been one of my favorite players, but the (mostly) unwarranted he's received from pretty much everybody with a camera or keyboard in front of them has turned me into an avid LeBron supporter. As I've said before, if the worst mistake you've made in life is hosting a self-promotional TV show, then I would guess you're a pretty good guy. I really don't get the "LeBron is a huge bi*ch" line of thinking. Ever since the Heat Welcome Party, he has handled himself extremely graciously all things considered IMO.

That said, I don't completely agree with the notion that an individual player can achieve "living legend" status without a ring, although I do agree with the bulk of what 21Huskies (and others) have been saying. If LeBron had gone out with his pistols blazing in last years finals, I suppose I could accept this argument more, but I think even the biggest LeBron supporters would agree that by his standards, his finals performance was extremely underwhelming. With that said, the guy is still only 27 years old and if he wins 2-3 titles by the time his career is over I don't think there is any doubt that he'll go down as one of the top 10 players to ever play this game.
 
He chose to conspire with two other All Stars and try to win multiple rings. That was a move. The decision. That was a move. He chose to hold the decision 20 minutes from the Knicks' practice facility. That was a move.

Nick naming yourself King James. That was a move. Proclaiming that your "team" will win not 1, not 2, not 3, etc., that was a move. Never participating in the dunk contest. That was a move. Dr. J, Jordan, Kobe, all of the best before you have participated for the fans yet he's too good for us to do it. Then, this year tease everyone that you may do it but then ultimately don't. That was a move. Being one of the strongest players in today's game, yet turned into a flopper in game 1 versus the Knicks. That was a move.

The fact that I'm a Knick fan and historically hate the Heat is just gravy. I'm a proud member and supporter of the world wide phenomenon Anti-Heat. Go Boston!


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I would take Steve Young if I were to start my own team. But that's my personal preference and he's a proven champion. And I think Elway is the best QB of all time.


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JaYnYcE said:
He chose to conspire with two other All Stars and try to win multiple rings. That was a move. The decision. That was a move. He chose to hold the decision 20 minutes from the Knicks' practice facility. That was a move.

Nick naming yourself King James. That was a move. Proclaiming that your "team" will win not 1, not 2, not 3, etc., that was a move. Never participating in the dunk contest. That was a move. Dr. J, Jordan, Kobe, all of the best before you have participated for the fans yet he's too good for us to do it. Then, this year tease everyone that you may do it but then ultimately don't. That was a move. Being one of the strongest players in today's game, yet turned into a flopper in game 1 versus the Knicks. That was a move.

The fact that I'm a Knick fan and historically hate the Heat is just gravy. I'm a proud member and supporter of the world wide phenomenon Anti-Heat. Go Boston!


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Waaa. Poor Knick fan needs a crying towel it seems.
 
Nah, LeBron may need one tomorrow if God loves mankind.
 
JaYnYcE said:
Nah, LeBron may need one tomorrow if God loves mankind.
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I mean you're making a big deal about his never performing in a dunk contest, so you are definitely butthurt over LeBron for some stupid reason.
 
Not a big deal at all, it's for the overall NBA fan really. People who have helped transcend this game have all done it and we're proud to do it. And I don't know how I feel about a baby sheep hurting my butt. Yikes!


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Awful lot of stupid in this thread...I think I'll stay away.
 
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