OT: Laptop purchase advice sought

[intlzncster]

Win 7 is supported until 2020

Yup. They just stop developing new features/improvements. But as far as fixing and keeping security updates flowing, 2020 it is.

This rumor is kind of a lame sales gimmick.

 

[jleves]

Also looking as MSFT will not support Win7 after July 30. So if my 6 year old Win7 n/b craps out next month, I'm screwed. And it's been slowing a lot lately - Win update code now probably occupies more HDD space than original W7, and the registers probably need a major cleanse.

I'm looking for 16GB of RAM as I open many windows at the same time, and multi window use is a major drag on northbridge performance. But Dell does not do 'custom' order anymore, so I need to order 8GB, and buy/install another 8GB from the aftermarket. Also, the 14" n/b with i3 MPUs can not be expanded beyond 8GB (according to Dell), so you may need to go 15.7" screen

I'm using Dell here, but the other brands obviously all use the same components - mostly. Acer / ASUS always seem to cost more, and I don't know how reliability of service from a non-US brand compares in a pinch. Their US market share is small.

Be sure that you get a 6th gen INTC MPU (usually listed as something like core i5 6200U - note the '6'). A lot of PC inventory at Best Buy / Micro Center is cheep (ask them what sells best and they'll say LOW price) because it's old inventory that INTC hasn't produced in a while (gen 6 started production in Oct '15). I don't need games / super-speed graphics, so a core i5 will do it. And it supports multi-displays as well.

Many are cautious on the SSD/HDD decision. Flash has a history of loosing bits to the ether over time. But if you use SSD as a temp repository, and store it all on a satellite HDD, should be good. SSD is FAST in delivering data to RAM/MPU from storage.

fyi, Neonode will offer (end August?) an aftermarket device - AirBar - (will be distributed by Ingram Micro to the retail channel including Amazon) that attaches along the bottom of a notebook display (connect thru the USB plug) and converts a non-touch to touch (you obviously still need Win10). I've seen the prototype, and it works. It employs u/v LED array above the glass, so is more effective and cheaper than the existing capacitance touch that overlays the monitor screen under the glass. And more functional since it can sense gestures above the glass (no need to literally 'touch' the screen). So $60 for an AirBar add-on, or $100-150+ for a new capacitance touch monitor? You decide. Neonode tech also now used on printers, Amazon e-Reader, and auto entertainment center consoles.

Check air.bar for details.

Good hunting.

My goodness - there are just so many things wrong here it's hard to digest. As already indicated, Windows 7 is supported through 2020 - but you can't upgrade from Windows 7 to Windows 10 for free after July, so upgrade now.

Northbridge went away in 2011 with Sandy Bridge in 2011. All processors since then handle what Northbridge once did.

You can open oodles of 'windows' ie. applications with 8GB with no problem - like dozens.

I have no idea what an MPU is.

Nobody is cautious on SSD. Samsung had a problem with their first version of their TLC (without going into a huge description - 3 layer NAND first generation) but subsequently fixed it an no other version has a problem. They do not 'lose bits over time' and there is no reason to copy stuff to a HDD other than for normal backup which should actually be done offsite (cloud or something you bring to another location).

I have no idea how an aftermarket device could in any way convert a non touch screen to a touch screen.

Anyway - you should be good to go with the one you chose without worrying about Northbridge being a major drag or SSDs losing bits to the ether over time.

 

[sledog]

My goodness - there are just so many things wrong here it's hard to digest. As already indicated, Windows 7 is supported through 2020 - but you can't upgrade from Windows 7 to Windows 10 for free after July, so upgrade now.

** ACTIVE support of Win7 ends 7/31. Only 'absolutely dire' patches will be provided afterward. Good luck with that. **

Northbridge went away in 2011 with Sandy Bridge in 2011. All processors since then handle what Northbridge once did.

** I'm a traditionalist. NB of course refers specifically to the MPU-cache net (chipset). **

You can open oodles of 'windows' ie. applications with 8GB with no problem - like dozens.

** With very large number of windows and long open times, as I use, it slows, espec if on web as the registers load. **

I have no idea what an MPU is. *** MicroProcessor Unit ***

Nobody is cautious on SSD. Samsung had a problem with their first version of their TLC (without going into a huge description - 3 layer NAND first generation) but subsequently fixed it an no other version has a problem. They do not 'lose bits over time' and there is no reason to copy stuff to a HDD other than for normal backup which should actually be done offsite (cloud or something you bring to another location).

** Memory failure rates are well known in R&D, and main IT circles. We used to agonize over reliability with the design of a new node on the Roadmap. There were issues with initial Triple Level Cell designs as the write speed saturated the buffer causing significant performance degradation. However, little data was actually lost. My point concerns cell charge disappearing ('winking off') over time for quantum mechanics reasons. For instance, from Schroeder, et al:

"we observe DRAM error rates that are orders of magnitude higher than previously reported, with 25,000 to 70,000 errors per billion device hours per Mbit and more than 8% of DIMMs affected by errors per year. We provide strong evidence that memory errors are dominated by hard errors, rather than soft errors."

Don't have time to hunt the exact article in IEEE Journal of Solid State Circuits that I'm thinking of, but will look here later IEEE Xplore: IEEE Journal of Solid-State Circuits **

I have no idea how an aftermarket device could in any way convert a non touch screen to a touch screen.

**look at air.bar for the tutorial. As I said, still need a 'touch O/S' like Win10. AirBar is merely enabling hardware **

Anyway - you should be good to go with the one you chose without worrying about Northbridge being a major drag or SSDs losing bits to the ether over time.

 

[August_West]

. LOL "dire updates".Ugh dude Quit now on the Win7 support issue. Some of us actually do this for a living and you are hurting our heads.

 

[jleves]

So I feel obligated to respond to another mess of babble, not to show how incredibly wrong you are, that's inevitable, but to make sure people understand the actual facts so they don't make uninformed and bad decisions.

Windows 7 was released in Oct, 2009. It actually went end of mainstream support in January of 2015 - 18 months ago. That means for the last 18 months you have had no feature updates to Windows 7. Nothing changes on July 31st other than you cannot upgrade to Windows 10 for free. Literally nothing else changes. You have been without 'dire patches' for 18 months. Between January 2015 and January 2020, Microsoft will continue to provide security updates and if you want to pay for support, they will provide that through 2020. All that being said, Windows 10 is fine and there's no reason not to upgrade if you haven't already. Again, on August 1st, you will have the exact same kind of support/updates you've had since January 2015 and that will continue until 2020.

Whatever you are calling MPUs have been called CPUs for several decades. I guess I can agree to disagree on this one, but 99.9% of people refer to the chips you put in desktops and laptops today as CPUs.

I'm not sure what MPU-cache net (chipset) means, but I can only think again you are talking about the ability for the CPU to access memory and the PCI bus. Again, this has been incorporated on CPUs since 2011 and with QPI links, the bandwidth and latency are fantastic.

As for this bus slowing with multiple web links filling up the registers, it doesn't even with 20 or 30 tabs open. Registers don't slow when they are loaded. Registers exist and get loaded. They don't slow when they are loaded.

I should have been more specific regarding NAND and TLC NAND having issues. The TLC problems Samsung had did not lose data, they just caused data that hadn't been used for a while (usually over 30 days) to be slow. Not slower than a HD access, just a lot slower than what one would expect from an SSD. The issue was corrected with firmware and no data was lost. Yes, if you take an SSD of data and remove it from a system and put it on a shelf for a couple of years, they cells can lose data. I don't know anyone who uses an SSD that way. Wear leveling alone will ensure that unused cells are updated as data access is normalized over the cells to ensure all the cells are written to equally extending the overall life of the SSD.

The fact that you specified DRAM error rates to support an argument about NAND failure indicates you do not really understand the technologies. While TLC NAND definitely doesn't have the performance of SLC or MLC NAND, it has nothing to do with DRAM and again, no data has been lost in the near term (<year+ with no power). That would be like saying problems with the internal combustion engine are why nuclear power plants are bad. When you turn off your computer, all the data in DRAM is gone but NAND retains all the data. Two totally different technologies.

So to summarize, 8GB of memory is plenty enough for the average user even if opening lots of windows and only becomes an issue if you're editing huge images or video. SSDs no matter if they are TLC or MLC based will be more than adequate and will provide huge performance gains over hard drives and will not lose your data over time (unless you leave you PC off for over a year).

Somehow @August_West was nicer than me in the response.

 

[uconnphil2016]

I use a Macbook Air. A little more expensive at $999 and I'm sure as far as hardware goes you get more bang for your buck with PC, but I do a lot of file sharing and all of my PCs got destroyed by viruses within 12 months. I've had the mac for years and it runs just as well as it did the first day I got it, while allowing me to download about 4k songs, books, a couple of documentaries, etc

 

[Jkhusky91]

Sorry if I missed it but working in IT, I would absolutely go with Lenovo over Dell. Repair record is much better.

 

[intlzncster]

Sorry if I missed it but working in IT, I would absolutely go with Lenovo over Dell. Repair record is much better.

Hasn't that changed recently. The last few years, Dell build quality has improved (especially on higher end Laptops), whereas Lenovo appears to have slipped.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

Update: I now have 2 hours Dell Inspiron 2-in-1 laptops to choose from. Bought from Costco, with 90 days to return, but old computer is non-functional, and only one will get applications & data from the old one.

15.6" Inspiron 7000 series: i7 w/4k screen

13.3" Inspiron 5000 series: i5 w/HD screen

BOTH have 8gb RAM & 256gb SSD, W10, Backlit keyboards

The larger computer weighs 1 lb. more, and costs $100 more.
My last two computers have been heavier 15+" laptops that have stayed on the desk >90% of the time. I use 7"tablet more than iPad, so maybe larger/heavier laptop won't matter for being cumbersome.

Your thoughts & opinions?

 

[jleves]

Update: I now have 2 hours Dell Inspiron 2-in-1 laptops to choose from. Bought from Costco, with 90 days to return, but old computer is non-functional, and only one will get applications & data from the old one.

15.6" Inspiron 7000 series: i7 w/4k screen

13.3" Inspiron 5000 series: i5 w/HD screen

BOTH have 8gb RAM & 256gb SSD, W10, Backlit keyboards

The larger computer weighs 1 lb. more, and costs $100 more.
My last two computers have been heavier 15+" laptops that have stayed on the desk >90% of the time. I use 7"tablet more than iPad, so maybe larger/heavier laptop won't matter for being cumbersome.

Your thoughts & opinions?

If it's going to stay put 90% of the time and $100 isn't going to keep you from eating, go with the larger screen. You'll definitely appreciate it.