OT - Lance Armstrong

[Dogdeacon]

What do folks think about his decision to give up appeals and the legal battles and the "U.S. Anti-Doping Agency" (for what productive purpose does such an organization even exist, are my tax dollars supporting this and the Salem Anti-Witchcraft Agency !) decision to strip him of his titles?

My opinion is he clearly doped because everyone did - so I don't care if he doped. Also I don't see the point in 'stripping' him of Tour De France titles/victories so long after the fact. Especially weird that a separate US governing body can waltz onto France's turf* and take away the wins.
*admittedly want are the French going to do, throw crouisants and truffles at us?

He won the damn races and got all the money, fanfare etc.. all you are taking away now from a global perspective is some BS legacy stuff. So is the purpose to make an example to deter future potential dopers? I think that's also BS as each future rider/doper will weigh the risk/reward and competitive situation at the time and make an individual choice. And I assume now everyone dopes scientifically right up to permissable levels.

Futher there has to be some statute of limitations on how long after the fact you can take away a championship, title, medal, win, award etc... 1 year seems about right. Going this far back in time is just ludicrous and 7-time Tour De France winner is going to remain part of Lance's name regardless, just maybe now its 7-time winner who's titles were stripped.

Lastly, here we have the most popular US cyclist by a gazillion miles. Let's cut him off at the knees after the fact. I think Lance is likely an egotist and clearly not a very good husband/boyfriend (hmm no different than most hugely successful athletes), but Lance has also done a ton for the sport and for cancer treatment. This almost has to be simply personal as that's also where the greatest impact of the title removal falls. Overall the net effect on the sport is INCREDIBLY negative, just d-u-m-b.

 

[progrocks]

The USADA is the worst organization in the world. I think he doped, I could careless if he doped, and I assume that 80% of the people he raced against doped. What the hell is the point of wasting all this money.

Why do I have to hate Roger Clemens because he doped when I could instead hate him because he is one of the most obnoxious people the world has ever produced?

 

[Dogdeacon]

The USADA is the worst organization in the world. I think he doped, I could careless if he doped, and I assume that 80% of the people he raced against doped. What the hell is the point of wasting all this money.

Why do I have to hate Roger Clemens because he doped when I could instead hate him because he is one of the most obnoxious people the world has ever produced?

Its like hating Jennifer Anniston because she had a nose job and wasn't nearly as pretty with the big honking schnozz. Hate her for her terrible acting, playing the same character in every movie and making a career out of getting dumped.

 

[suzyq]

How does USADA have the authority to strip titles from an event held in Europe? How do they have the authority to strip any titiles, sholdn't that come from the event organizers? I don't care one way or the other, cyclists clearly lead the world in doping efficiency ( excluding East German female swimmers, but that isn't their fault), and apparrently Lance did it better than anyone else as there are no postivie tests.

 

[8893]

The fact that it is so widespread in his sport, and that the sport and the anti-doping agency appear to be incredibly corrupt, makes it more understandable to me. The bigger issue I have is his adamant denial of it all these years.

 

[ZooCougar]

How does USADA have the authority to strip titles from an event held in Europe? How do they have the authority to strip any titiles, sholdn't that come from the event organizers? I don't care one way or the other, cyclists clearly lead the world in doping efficiency ( excluding East German female swimmers, but that isn't their fault), and apparrently Lance did it better than anyone else as there are no postivie tests.

They are part of a larger organization called the World Anti Doping Agency.

And I don't believe that they can strip titles. They can only make recommendations. Which are almost always adopted.

I think the UCI will appeal, they have always been in the tank for Farmstrong. And will always protect their "stars".

 

[uconNYC]

Lance doped and so did everyone else. If he is stripped of his titles, hope they do not award the yellow jersey to the second place finisher because he probably also doped.

 

[UConn990411]

Not that I think Armstrong was clean, but the Anti-Doping Agency is such a freakin' disgrace.

I hope Lance sues them for harassment and wins a lot of money (ala Tarkanian did with the NCAA).

 

[Palatine]

I don't understand why they are still chasing him years after he quit. Are they going back and investigating every rider who ever raced?

The bigger issue is what is their evidence? I've read everything and it just seems to be accusers.

It is clearly a targeted witch hunt. It's shameful.

 

[nomar]

I agree it's easier to dope in cycling, but not EVERYONE did it.

He clearly doped. An innocent man would fight this to death. He should be stripped.

Palatine, they've gone after numerous cyclists. I'm not sure why you think Lance is being singled out.

I'm not trying to turn Armstrong into the devil here. It's just disappointing. I used to believe him. Now I don't.

 

[junglehusky]

If you don't care about the sport of cycling in general, or only watched the Tour de France because of Armstrong's cancer hero persona, maybe I can understand this attitude that it's a "waste" to investigate. If you think doping is a generally harmless practice that doesn't affect athletes' lives, or that it's not a big deal if it does and they do it knowingly, hey that's your opinion. If you enjoy watching sports casually and see someone win big and don't give a * about the athlete who loves his sport, competes clean, but can never seem to finish better than 20th place because his competitors are all dirty, well I guess that's part of human psychology.

But I've watched the sport for a decade, I enjoy it, and as a fan I just want it to be clean. If it was a "waste" of taxpayer money to investigate a crime, isn't it also a waste that US Postal used taxpayer money to run a conspiracy to buy / distribute / administer PEDs (involving not just Armstrong and his coach, but shady doctors)? If the government is supposed to look the other way for Armstrong, who else should they give a pass to?

To the point on it being "harmless", well several riders have died from strokes in the 90's because of EPO. Perhaps now the dopers are more careful. But if I had a kid who wanted to race, I'd want them in an environment where this kind of thing isn't going to happen.

To the last point on competition - yes there was definitely a dirty era. You can go back further before the EPO era, where there stimulants and other things being used as well. But if I'm a corporate sponsor for a team, I wouldn't want my name associated with cheaters. And as a fan, when I'm cheering for a team or individual during a sporting competition, I just enjoy it more when there's less chance of there being an advantage from doping. I don't like rationalizing someone else's actions that are on the books as being against the rules of fair competition. You might accuse me of preaching or whatever, but that's just how I feel.

I like the fact that there are people in the sport of cycling who are trying to change the culture to reduce the incentives to cheat, introduce more accountability and testing, so that people like me can watch and be more confident that our favorite riders are not cheaters. It's beyond pathetic that Armstrong spent the last 10 years fighting, smearing, harassing those people, and the people who were testifying against him, or reporting on him, or just asking him basic goddam questions instead of stroking his ego. He is a petty, small, pathetic person.

Oh, and one other note - I crack up at the "HE RAISED MILLIONS FOR CANCER RESEARCH SO LET'S LEAVE HIM ALONE" line. This is the strategy that organized criminals would use - remember Frank Lucas giving out Thanksgiving Turkeys in the Denzell Washington movie Gangster? I guess everybody would have a different opinion of Mike Tyson, or Pete Rose, if they had raised a bit more money for charity. Hey, Jerry Sandusky ran a charity too - why don't we let him off the hook?

If you still hate cancer, or still like cycling, but your opinion of Armstrong diminished a little, don't worry. You don't have to wear a LIESTRONG bracelet to show you want to win the war on cancer. Here are several worthy places to donate money:
https://shop.stjude.org/GiftCatalog/donation.do?cID=13522&pID=18290&fnl=FaceSuperNav
St. Jude's Research Hospital

Dana-Farber Cancer Institute

American Cancer Society

Leukemia & Lymphoma Society

Mayo Clinic

 

[ZooCougar]

I agree it's easier to dope in cycling, but not EVERYONE did it.

He clearly doped. An innocent man would fight this to death. He should be stripped.

Palatine, they've gone after numerous cyclists. I'm not sure why you think Lance is being singled out.

I'm not trying to turn Armstrong into the devil here. It's just disappointing. I used to believe him. Now I don't.

If it were really a witch hunt then he must have pissed off literally thousands of people. Does not compute.

 

[ZooCougar]

Great post.

I thought Lance used Cancer as a shield to deflect the scrutiny. He used to say things in the press like "If you doubt me then clearly you are for cancer and you don't believe in miracles".

Most Americans don't follow the sport as religously as us. This is why they seem so shocked this morning. The lies and the subterfuge have been going on for years. And like most other sports fans, we want to know that what we are seeing is "real".

This is why I am Garmin fan. With that team, at least you are almost 100% certain that those riders are clean, so when they win you know it's a clean win.

I am eagerly awaiting the USADA's release of evidence. I am sure it will shut the pieholes of alot of ignorant people.

 

[caw]

I agree it's easier to dope in cycling, but not EVERYONE did it.

He clearly doped. An innocent man would fight this to death. He should be stripped.

Palatine, they've gone after numerous cyclists. I'm not sure why you think Lance is being singled out.

I'm not trying to turn Armstrong into the devil here. It's just disappointing. I used to believe him. Now I don't.

I don't necessarily agree with the highlighted part. Some innocent men would. Some guilty men would. Some innocent men would just let it drop and some guilty men would let it drop. Each person will do what he/she thinks is best for them.

If you have ever been wrongfully accused of cheating, it can be taxing to prove you are innocent, especially when the other side doesn't want to bother listening to you or your proof. At some point, if you can't convince them and you know you can't, you have to let it go and move on.

It sounds to me, from what I have read, that Armstrong's ex-teammates are saying he doped, but there aren't any tests to prove it. So it comes down to testimony by his teammates versus testing. There is no way Armstrong can prove he didn't dope beyond his word and the testing taken. The USADA seems to be taking the word of his ex-teammates over his word. It's a he said, she said at this point. Unless they have dirty tests (which they haven't announced anywhere - that is a different story.

I'm not saying Armstrong was innocent, I'm just saying his refusal to play the game the way the USADA has set up does not mean he is guilty by default.

For the record, I believe he probably did dope at some point. I also think he was a phenomenal athlete. I have a huge problem with what the USADA is doing if they don't have test results proving he cheated and are only going off of the word of his ex-teammates.

 

[junglehusky]

Frankly I don't think the pieholes will be shut, at least for a vocal minority. Some people just put sports figures, church leaders, celebrities or politicians on a pedestal almost to the point of idolatry. And those celebrities take advantage of that by using a narrative of "all these bad guys are trying to get me!!!" And it works a lot of the time. Fans will rationalize all kinds of bad and/or criminal behavior by their idol, rather than just stop being a fan.

 

[junglehusky]

caw, there were re-tests done of Armstong's 1999 samples that were not publicized (because the UCI is protecting their golden boy).

For anyone interested, here is a pretty comprehensive history of the Armstrong case:http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/index-of-lance-armstrong-doping-allegations-over-the-years
Index of Lance Armstrong doping allegations over the years

 

[Waquoit]

These WADA guys are bad people. It's a modern day Les Miz. Now that they got their big scalp, they are going to parlay it into a modern day inqusition. Paying themselves huge unearned salaries along the way while accomplishing nothing of value. The entire good drug/bad drug mindset is misguided. And this affects everyone here. Just pray that never in your life you ever suffer from constant, excrutiating pain. The relief costs just pennies but you aren't able to acquire it without someone risking jail.

 

[caw]

caw, there were re-tests done of Armstong's 1999 samples that were not publicized (because the UCI is protecting their golden boy).

For anyone interested, here is a pretty comprehensive history of the Armstrong case:
Index of Lance Armstrong doping allegations over the years

I am well aware of that, the USADA is not basing their current allegations off of those tests (from what I understand).

 

[superjohn]

Anybody who knows anything about cycling knows that nobody cycling at the highest level is "natural" it's pretty much the same as bodybuilding where it's known that everyone is competing at the same level because they are all on drugs. Turns out Armstrong was just better than everyone else just like Bonds and Clemens were. I've never liked Armstrong and always thought it was ridiculous how the media fawned all over him and acted like he was clean. It's not a clean sport but Armstrong was the best.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Junglehusky has some really good points. I confess I don't care about the sport of cycling and ala football or a myriad of other sports where drug use or cheating is in imbedded part of the culture I'm 100% guilty of being ambivalent until I'm vocally against it when it comes to my back yard (NIMBA). I still don't see what exactly is accomplished by chasing ghosts and stripping titles that are 5+ years old. Yes some innocents get hurt and it sucks for clean competitors, but there are a lot of bigger societal problems to confront if 'doping' and ill-effects of drug use are your worldly concerns.

Regarding Armstrong himself I think we are mostly in the same camp other than I don't know anywhere near as much about his cycling, defense and doping charges. I read "It's not about the Bike" and though entertaining I think he was a good athlete but not the hero saint he made himself out to be, rather again an egotist. But until I go out and raise as much money as he has for cancer, even if he's hiding behind that or using it as a 'beard' I have to give him credit and think that the good absolutely out-weighs the bad.

 

[ZooCougar]

You really think baseball and football don't have doping cultures? That seems a little naiv to me.

Junglehusky has some really good points. I confess I don't care about the sport of cycling and ala football or a myriad of other sports where drug use or cheating is in imbedded part of the culture I'm 100% guilty of being ambivalent until I'm vocally against it when it comes to my back yard (NIMBA). I still don't see what exactly is accomplished by chasing ghosts and stripping titles that are 5+ years old. Yes some innocents get hurt and it sucks for clean competitors, but there are a lot of bigger societal problems to confront if 'doping' and ill-effects of drug use are your worldly concerns.

Regarding Armstrong himself I think we are mostly in the same camp other than I don't know anywhere near as much about his cycling, defense and doping charges. I read "It's not about the Bike" and though entertaining I think he was a good athlete but not the hero saint he made himself out to be, rather again an egotist. But until I go out and raise as much money as he has for cancer, even if he's hiding behind that or using it as a 'beard' I have to give him credit and think that the good absolutely out-weighs the bad.

 

[ZooCougar]

Yes, WADA is driving up the cost of painkillers.

This is the dumbest thing I have read this week.

These WADA guys are bad people. It's a modern day Les Miz. Now that they got their big scalp, they are going to parlay it into a modern day inqusition. Paying themselves huge unearned salaries along the way while accomplishing nothing of value. The entire good drug/bad drug mindset is misguided. And this affects everyone here. Just pray that never in your life you ever suffer from constant, excrutiating pain. The relief costs just pennies but you aren't able to acquire it without someone risking jail.

 

[Waquoit]

Yes, WADA is driving up the cost of painkillers.

This is the dumbest thing I have read this week.

You are truly an idiot. It's not the cost, it's the availability. And it's was pretty clear that I was speaking about the drug war mentality (which WADA exploits for personal gain) that keeps many with chonic pain from getting the relief they need. Try to keep up. Do I have the cut the crust off of your PBJ sammiches, too?

 

[ZooCougar]

You are truly an idiot. It's not the cost, it's the availability. And it's was pretty clear that I was speaking about the drug war mentality (which WADA exploits for personal gain) that keeps many with chonic pain from getting the relief they need. Try to keep up. Do I have the cut the crust off of your PBJ sammiches, too?

Oh please. People shouldn't take EPO. It turns your blood into goo and you die in your sleep. There must be an organization that keeps sports from being a complete chemical contest.

Shouldn't you be writing love letters to Jeff Hathaway, that would be fitting for you and you I-AA attitude towards life.

 

[ZenConn]

Lance doped and so did everyone else. If he is stripped of his titles, hope they do not award the yellow jersey to the second place finisher because he probably also doped.

Exactly what deadspin pointed out.

... here are the runners-up who stand to inherit the yellow jerseys from the disgraced champ:
1999: Alex Zülle (confessed to EPO use)
2000: Jan Ullrich (suspended from 2006 Tour; banned this year and stripped of all results from 2005 on)
2001: Jan Ullrich
2002: Joseba Beloki (kept out of 2006 Tour while under doping investigation, later cleared)
2003: Jan Ullrich
2004: Andreas Klöden (accused of illegal blood transfusion in the 2006 Tour)
2005: Ivan Basso (confessed to attempted doping, suspended)