OT- Karl Malone is an idiot

[Dogbreath2U]

The best ever or top 1 and 2 by position is interesting, particularly if you actually required that the players be grouped into the position that they actually played the most at. Magic would probably be consensus #1 at PG. Jordan at SG. Lebron at 3. I guess Duncan at 4, but as great as he has been, it seems like there should be someone better, but I can't think who that would be. Center: I am unfortunately old enough to remember Wilt playing live when I was young, but it the second half of his career. He was a force with his size, athleticism, and strength, but his lack of skill bothered me with all the raves he got. I'm sure it's just a matter of preference, but I thought Kareem was the much better basketball player. His sky hook was a wondrous thing....it is just amazing that no one has really been able to reproduce it. I still think of him as by far the best center. Definitely more of a finesse guy, but he did do well at every aspect of the game. Shaq is roughly similar to Wilt. Another regret I have is that Bill Walton could not stay healthy. As obnoxious as he can be as an announcer, he was just as fantastic in college and early in his NBA career. He had just great hands, amazing outlet passer, could use either hand around the basket, used the glass very well, very good rebounder, and very quick and coordinated for his size.

 

[sparky]

Big O, Bill Russell, MJ, Bird, Wilt.

 

[Kitaman]

I think it's too early to put LeBron in there. When all is said and done, probably. But not yet.

Why wait? No one better now or in the near future.

Anyway impossible to name a top 5, top 10 maybe but 5 no.

No Kobe love? I know he's a selfish SOB but damn he can play with the best of them and has rings. Even Duncan could be among the very best.

And Bird would start for any great team. Just impossible I tell you.

 

[traitor71]

How is Durant even on that list?

And how is Olajuwon not?

Just illustrates how tough it is to put these lists together I guess.

 

[James]

Isiah Thomas is the second greatest point guard ever. Rings do count if youre the finals MVP.

 

[aceboon]

Co-sign the Isiah mentions, I'd take him over Stockton 24/7, 365.

 

[intlzncster]

I guess it depends whether you judge players on the totality of their career or their peak. LeBron's playing like something of a rich man's Larry Bird right now, as insane as that sounds. I just think it would be very difficult to leave him off given his versatility, but then again, it's almost equally as difficult to leave off Russell/Oscar/Wilt/etc.

whoah killar. Rich mans Larry Bird? Bird was absolutely filthy in his day. He was much more of a killer than Lebron is. Bird could rip your heart out like no other. French Lick style.

 

[intlzncster]

I'd defo take Magic over Isiah. Was that already mentioned?

 

[intlzncster]

Impossible to compare numbers in different eras. Wilt's 50 reb/gm? Just doesn't compute today.

Modern era I have Magic, Jordan, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem and/or Kareem.

Old school: Oscar, Cousy, West, Russell, Wilt

(though I heard Mikan was a beast, but I don't have any personal reference there...; want to put Maravich up there too)

 

[intlzncster]

Lebron is one of only 5 players to win at least 4 MVP awards and has been all NBA first team 7 times, do you really think there are 10 better players then him??

That's just because the NBA sucks today! ;D

 

[TheChamps990411]

Kobe in the top five? Sorry, I don't see it. I'm not sure I'd have him in my top ten.

wow! really? where do you think tim duncan stands if he wins his 5th? im thinking he could possibly get in on the conversation.

 

[Husky25]

Any Top 5 that does not include Bird, Magic, or Jordan loses credibility from the get go. Not only where they great players in their own right, they made everyone around them better on both ends of the court.

Kobe doesn't do that, in my opinion, especially on defense.

 

[Kitaman]

Modern era I have Magic, Jordan, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem.

Okay give me: Kobe (pg its a stretch), Lebron SG (playing Magic), the Doctor (Bird), Garnett (Duncan) and Kareem. If you insist on Kareem I'll take Moses.

May not be the best of the best but I bet I would win some games and keep it close.

 

[champs99and04]

whoah killar. Rich mans Larry Bird? Bird was absolutely filthy in his day. He was much more of a killer than Lebron is. Bird could rip your heart out like no other. French Lick style.

I'm very aware of how good Bird was - I have him in my top 5/6 all-time. But check out James, this year, compared to Bird, in his best season:

Larry - 28.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 6.6 apg, 52/43/88 shooting splits, .585 true shooting%, 26.5 PER

LBJ - 26.8 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 7.3 apg, 57/41/75 shooting splits, .640 true shooting%, 31.6 PER

Then, you would have to adjust for era/possessions per game. LBJ assisted on 36.4% of his teammates field goals and grabbed 13.1% of rebounds available. Bird assisted on 25.7% of his teammates field goals and grabbed 14.7% of rebounds available. Bird also turned it over more frequently despite a lower useage rate. LBJ is a better and more versatile defender than Bird ever was - he's a super-human who can play every single position at an all-world level and guard everybody from Derrick Rose to Kevin Durant to Kevin Garnett. "Was much more of a killer"? LeBron kills his opponents more b/c he's a better player than Bird was.

 

[intlzncster]

I'm very aware of how good Bird was - I have him in my top 5/6 all-time. But check out James, this year, compared to Bird, in his best season:

Larry - 28.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 6.6 apg, 52/43/88 shooting splits, .585 true shooting%, 26.5 PER

LBJ - 26.8 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 7.3 apg, 57/41/75 shooting splits, .640 true shooting%, 31.6 PER

Then, you would have to adjust for era/possessions per game. LBJ assisted on 36.4% of his teammates field goals and grabbed 13.1% of rebounds available. Bird assisted on 25.7% of his teammates field goals and grabbed 14.7% of rebounds available. Bird also turned it over more frequently despite a lower useage rate. LBJ is a better and more versatile defender than Bird ever was - he's a super-human who can play every single position at an all-world level and guard everybody from Derrick Rose to Kevin Durant to Kevin Garnett. "Was much more of a killer"? LeBron kills his opponents more b/c he's a better player than Bird was.

Yeah, but if I need a final shot, I'm taking Larry 100 out of 100 times. That's the most valuable skill in basketball. And that's what I mean by killer. Lebron doesn't do it for me mentally. Call me after 5 championships or so. He might develop it, I don't know. I've seen Lebron quit. Never Larry.

And numbers don't mean much in comparison, when they are against different sets of players, different styles of play in the League. I'm one of those who believe that the NBA was much better back then. Certainly played more physical. Literally, the statistics are damn near meaningless. As I said before, numbers can't really be compared in different eras....Wilt Chamberlin's don't hold up today. I would consider the Larry Magic era of the 80s far different than the 2000s era of Lebron. Jordan was kind of a bridge of those two eras. Teams like the Detroit Bad Boys couldn't exist now.

 

[husky91]

I would go

MJ
Russell
Wilt
Magic
Kobe

LeBron will ultimately bump Magic


Big O, Hakeem, Bird, Kareem in next group

 

[champs99and04]

Yeah, but if I need a final shot, I'm taking Larry 100 out of 100 times. That's the most valuable skill in basketball. And that's what I mean by killer. Lebron doesn't do it for me mentally. Call me after 5 championships or so. He might develop it, I don't know. I've seen Lebron quit. Never Larry.

And numbers don't mean much in comparison, when they are against different sets of players, different styles of play in the League. I'm one of those who believe that the NBA was much better back then. Certainly played more physical. Literally, the statistics are damn near meaningless. As I said before, numbers can't really be compared in different eras....Wilt Chamberlin's don't hold up today. I would consider the Larry Magic era of the 80s far different than the 2000s era of Lebron. Jordan was kind of a bridge of those two eras. Teams like the Detroit Bad Boys couldn't exist now.

Both are excellent choices to take a last shot. Hopefully you haven't fallen victim to the "LeBron doesn't have a clutch gene!" narrative the media has exposed us too, because the stats don't back it up. You've seen LeBron quit, really? I don't buy it, the guy is too much of a competitor. He's had some terrible series (Boston, 2010, Dallas, 2011), lapses in judgement, and difficulties with certain defenses, but I've never found him to check out mentally. Certain defenses, specifically in his Cleveland days, would load the strong side when he had the ball to ridiculous measures to the point it was difficult for him to find easy looks.

I'm not sure why I'm supposed to call you after five championships. Basketball is a team sport. If it were tennis, and players competed purely indidually, LeBron would have six or seven championships.

I suppose the league could be considered "better" back then in respect to the fact that it wasn't as dilluted, but it would be difficult to deny the talent pool is much wider nowadays. There are great teams now, just like there were great teams then. The San Antonio team LeBron's playing in the finals is a great team, as was the Thunder and Celtics teams he played last year. And he dominated them, too. Saying "statistics are damn near meaningless" is a bit of a cop out - obviously they don't tell the entire story, but you can't expect to have a discussion of this kind without responding to them, especially when they are adjusted for pace.

 

[mauconnfan]

Good argument intlzncster and 99and04.........both make very legit points for your sides. Lebron is a better overall athlete obviously and his skills are not to be questioned. But Larry had that special something, made everyone better no doubt especially in big games. Knew when to take it over or assist someone else in doing so not sure I see that in Lebron as consistently.

 

[Hoophound]

Keep in mind, the Heat lost game one not seven. Lebron has plenty of time to be heroic.

 

[intlzncster]

Keep in mind, the Heat lost game one not seven. Lebron has plenty of time to be heroic.

Note: my comment had nothing to do with this year's series. Have been watching NHL, not NBA this year.

 

[mauconnfan]

Note: my comment had nothing to do with this year's series. Have been watching NHL, not NBA this year.

NHL is still playing, thought it was over when the Rangers got beat??

 

[superjohn]

Any Top 5 that does not include Bird, Magic, or Jordan loses credibility from the get go. Not only where they great players in their own right, they made everyone around them better on both ends of the court.

Kobe doesn't do that, in my opinion, especially on defense.

I'm not old enough to have watched the old greats but as a little kid I watched the greatness of Magic and Bird and then I was lucky enough to have watched Jordan. Growing up at the time I did I can say I was spoiled rotten, watching those 3 players made me the basketball fan I am today, all 3 of them personified greatness.

 

[cohenzone]

Jungle Jim Loscutoff. Russell was nothing without him.

All time 5

Russell, Chamberlain, Kareem, MJ and Magic. Huge impact on how the game was played. James belongs in that group. Clear asterisk for Jungle Jim.

I don't think one of several other players would be off the wall, like Dr. J, O, Kobe, Stockton, Cousy and really many more you can argue for. Mikan changed the game too, although I don't think in pure talent terms he measures with the other great bigs. And the list changes if you go by position. But eliminating one of Russell, Wilt or Kareem just to go by position makes no sense to me.

 

[intlzncster]

NHL is still playing, thought it was over when the Rangers got beat??

Rangers? Is that some NY team? They play hockey down there?

I've been watching the Bruins, as I enjoy their style of play, and I dislike the Penguins. Give me physical tough hockey over finesse any day. Why I liked guys like Messier (throwing you a bone there) over Gretzky. Love watching Jagr's metamorphosis, and hope he gets a title out of this.

As a former Whalers diehard, I can't say I'm a Bruins fan (just doesn't sound right), but I like playoff hockey, so that is what I'm stuck with. Sox/Pats/Celts fan, so I might as well support the Bruins.

 

[mauconnfan]

Rangers? Is that some NY team? They play hockey down there?

I've been watching the Bruins, as I enjoy their style of play, and I dislike the Penguins. Give me physical tough hockey over finesse any day. Why I liked guys like Messier (throwing you a bone there) over Gretzky. Love watching Jagr's metamorphosis, and hope he gets a title out of this.

As a former Whalers diehard, I can't say I'm a Bruins fan (just doesn't sound right), but I like playoff hockey, so that is what I'm stuck with. Sox/Pats/Celts fan, so I might as well support the Bruins.

Yeah they play......Messier may be returning to the bench too we'll see.......

Unlike my dislike of the Sox I do like the Bruins and also have been watching.......they are playing well and Rask is Henrik-like as we speak!!

 

[Husky25]

I'm not old enough to have watched the old greats but as a little kid I watched the greatness of Magic and Bird and then I was lucky enough to have watched Jordan. Growing up at the time I did I can say I was spoiled rotten, watching those 3 players made me the basketball fan I am today, all 3 of them personified greatness.

Unfortunately, that's the problem with comparing All-Time players. Stats are not really transferable across eras because of ever evolving rules, official scorers had different interpretations of said rules (some weren't even taken), and they played against different competition. Russell is an all time great to be sure, but he was offensively challenged. Wilt was defensively challenged, Cousy was know to turn the ball over as much as make a great behind the back pass, and Oscar Robinson played in a era where little defense if any was played by any team.

Magic and Bird saved the NBA from the brink of non-existance and Jordan took that to the next level. Their play and gargantuan personalities transcends eras and stats. That this why any list of GOAT's upon which these three are not included is a non-starter.

 

[Husky25]

Rangers? Is that some NY team? They play hockey down there?

I've been watching the Bruins, as I enjoy their style of play, and I dislike the Penguins. Give me physical tough hockey over finesse any day. Why I liked guys like Messier (throwing you a bone there) over Gretzky. Love watching Jagr's metamorphosis, and hope he gets a title out of this.

As a former Whalers diehard, I can't say I'm a Bruins fan (just doesn't sound right), but I like playoff hockey, so that is what I'm stuck with. Sox/Pats/Celts fan, so I might as well support the Bruins.

Why is there not an OT: NHL Playoff's thread (I suppose I could start one, but the playoffs are over in two weeks. What about the last 6 weeks?)?

Tuuka Rask is standing on his head. I hope it continues...

 

[superjohn]

Unfortunately, that's the problem with comparing All-Time players. Stats are not really transferable across eras because of ever evolving rules, official scorers had different interpretations of said rules (some weren't even taken), and they played against different competition. Russell is an all time great to be sure, but he was offensively challenged. Wilt was defensively challenged, Cousy was know to turn the ball over as much as make a great behind the back pass, and Oscar Robinson played in a era where little defense if any was played by any team.

Magic and Bird saved the NBA from the brink of non-existance and Jordan took that to the next level. Their play and gargantuan personalities transcends eras and stats. That this why any list of GOAT's upon which these three are not included is a non-starter.

Well said, agree 100%.

 

[intlzncster]

Yeah they play.

Just not so much in OT!

Unlike my dislike of the Sox I do like the Bruins and also have been watching.......they are playing well and Rask is Henrik-like as we speak!!

How can you not like a goalie that looks as weird as this?

 

[intlzncster]

Unfortunately, that's the problem with comparing All-Time players. Stats are not really transferable across eras because of ever evolving rules, official scorers had different interpretations of said rules (some weren't even taken), and they played against different competition. Russell is an all time great to be sure, but he was offensively challenged. Wilt was defensively challenged, Cousy was know to turn the ball over as much as make a great behind the back pass, and Oscar Robinson played in a era where little defense if any was played by any team.

Magic and Bird saved the NBA from the brink of non-existance and Jordan took that to the next level. Their play and gargantuan personalities transcends eras and stats. That this why any list of GOAT's upon which these three are not included is a non-starter.

Agree 100%.