OT: Final need law school advice

[AfgHusky15]

Just was recently offered a full ride from Villanova law school as well as a 4k stipend my first year for living expenses. Sweet deal however I am very worried about Nova's dramatic drop in rankings from a law school in the 60's just 2 years ago to below 100 this year. I have until today to send in a deposit.

The other school that I was planning on going to before this full ride was uconn. I get in state tution. 6 k in financial aid grants as well as a 15k scholarship my first year. I am able to commute from home saving room and board costs. In sum I would have to pay around 33k for tution at uconn, which has also dropped in the rankings but is still ranked 62nd I believe.

Been to philly a couple times, which is more fun than CT, have family in CT tho, but philly is close enough to my home where I can come up on an often basis without it being costly. Nova has some good ties to some large firms in philly, there are no large firms in CT. These are some of the things I am thinking of right now. Nova's ranking being on the top of my list. Im also thinking of waiting out another year and seeing if i could get into better law schools, because tought times for law school students especially those that are not ranked in the top 20 even top 10, but both scholarship packages are very tempting.

Any thoughts from anyone?

Thanks in advance

 

[Uconn93]

Just was recently offered a full ride from Villanova law school as well as a 4k stipend my first year for living expenses. Sweet deal however I am very worried about Nova's dramatic drop in rankings from a law school in the 60's just 2 years ago to below 100 this year. I have until today to send in a deposit.

The other school that I was planning on going to before this full ride was uconn. I get in state tution. 6 k in financial aid grants as well as a 15k scholarship my first year. I am able to commute from home saving room and board costs. In sum I would have to pay around 33k for tution at uconn, which has also dropped in the rankings but is still ranked 62nd I believe.

Been to philly a couple times, which is more fun than CT, have family in CT tho, but philly is close enough to my home where I can come up on an often basis without it being costly. Nova has some good ties to some large firms in philly, there are no large firms in CT. These are some of the things I am thinking of right now. Nova's ranking being on the top of my list. Im also thinking of waiting out another year and seeing if i could get into better law schools, because tought times for law school students especially those that are not ranked in the top 20 even top 10, but both scholarship packages are very tempting.

Any thoughts from anyone?

Thanks in advance

I've been a lawyer for the last 16 years. I wouldn't advise anyone to go to law school right now. But seeing as you're past that point, take the full ride. Assuming the job picture doesn't get any better in the next 3 years (and it might get worse), at least you won't have any loans to pay which will give you alot more flexibility in the search for your initial job. Also, understand that it will be easiest to pass the bar and get a job in the state in which you go to law school. So, you need to be comfortable with the idea that your legal career is likely going to start in that state.

Good luck.

 

[dapriest]

Flip a coin. It won't make a bit a difference in where you are at in 20 years. You make your future, it does not make you. Even at the height of the first great depression unemployment was only 25%. Assuming that your scholarship was merit-based, you're a rock star. Get your game on, you'll go far. You can beat out at least 1 of the 3 bozos sitting next to you at the law school intro Dean speech. Puff up your chest, put a sock in your pants, chase an ambulance, and find a hot wife. Or husband. Whatever. You can do it Duffy Moon.

 

[Excalibur]

Finish at the top of your class and it won't matter where the degree is from. Take the full ride and work your @ss off.

 

[Letsgohuskies11]

be careful with law school, my friend has been unemployed for a year + since graduating from Law School

 

[8893]

You can do it Duffy Moon.

Quoted for hilarity.

@Afg, re your law school decision, the best advice is to work your ass off to be at the top of your class. Beyond that, consider where you are most likely to want to practice after graduating. If you want to practice in CT, UConn is far and away your better choice between the two.

 

[nomar]

I've been practicing for 10 years.

If I were you, I'd take the money. UConn isn't good enough for you to forego that scholarship.

 

[Bill Sussman]

I refer you to one of my all time favorite posts on the Boneyard:

Context: http://www.the-boneyard.com/threads/ot-need-law-school-advice.16729/

Best Response: http://www.the-boneyard.com/threads/ot-need-law-school-advice.16729/

Thank You Prez!

Well, having been a lawyer for some time and having known hundreds upon hundreds of lawyers, I'll throw in my two hundred dollar bills:

1. Based on your one post, you seem to have the perfect anal-retentive, overbearing, cross all Ts and dot all Is, twice, too much attention to small detail hobgoblin . . . etc. , mentality that seems to be a prerequisite for entry in the profession of law.

2. The fact that you applied to such a broad range of schools is ample proof that you a poor decision maker. On the other hand, the fact that you asked for advice might suggest that you are wise enough to realize that you are a poor decision maker. Of course, if you're like 99% of the attorneys that I know, the question wasn't posited originally to elicit advice, but rather to trumpet the fact that you got accepted to law school. I can imagine you at age 4 running around the living room yelling to the house guests, "AfgHusky15 make in potty! AfgHusky15 make in potty!"

Congratulations. You got into law school. You've made the small group of 1.1 million blood suckers running around the U.S. leveraging the rigged judicial system to leech sinfully high fees off of Americans who, for the most part, don't know the basic process of law.

3. I agree that Q is a school. I would only look at top 2 or 3 grads each year from that school.

4. Forget about going to a school because it's got a "big alumni base." That's horse-crap. I never got a job based on the fact that I went to UConn Law.

5. You'll get hired or not based on these things, and almost only these things - law school rank, graduation with honors/cum laude etc., grades, undergrad institution, extracurricular performance (moot court, law review, etc.). If you're a dude, as long as you're not obese or butt-ugly, you're good. If you're female, how attractive you are will impact your opportunities. Nothing better than having a hot associate who does the job. If you've got a horse face and you wear a man's suit, you fall into the butt-ugly guy category - you'll need to get hired on your credentials alone.

6. Law is a business. It's the business of using the fact that you have to go to law school to get a magic union card in order to represent dumb- Americans out of their self-caused problems. It's a career based, in large part, on conflict.

You want to know how you can pick out the future lawyers among kids? Go to a 5th grad class room and find the know-it-all kid who rolls his/her eyes when some other kid is struggling to read aloud. That's the future lawyer. The can't-read kid is the future client.

Of course, if you don't want to swim in the liquid feces of the ignorant proletariat's divorces, car injuries, bankruptcies, will disputes, criminal acts, and so on, then you can always work for soul-sucking corporations, in which case your job may be arguing why some c-cks-king CEO at some corporation that employs 12 year olds in Indonesia to hand-shovel lead and mercury drippings off of barges into ocean currents should not be criminally indicted for knowingly selling lethally defective products to apathetic citizens of the empire.

Hey, and if you just suck at law, then you can always try to get a job as a public defender.

Sure you should go. Remember what Shakespeare said: "first, kill all the lawyers." It was true then, it's true now.

But I'll help you out, and teach you the most important thing I learned in law school, which I taught myself, right here, right now - the Constitution is an illusion. You have no rights. What you have is the illusion of rights, and, when the next "terror" attack comes, or the one after that, your "Constitutional rights" will be thrown aside as easily as the document itself would be.

Law is a racket. It pays well, and regarding the "economy" and all that hoo-haa, remember that, even if unemployment is at 30%, all you've got to do is be in the top 70% to have a job.

Took fewer than 15 years to get to that level of cynicism.​

I'm sure that didn't answer your question at all but quite frankly I could care less where you go and I find it more important that I re-live the laugh I got over the original post. Best of Luck!

 

[Edward Sargent]

Just was recently offered a full ride from Villanova law school as well as a 4k stipend my first year for living expenses. Sweet deal however I am very worried about Nova's dramatic drop in rankings from a law school in the 60's just 2 years ago to below 100 this year. I have until today to send in a deposit.

The other school that I was planning on going to before this full ride was uconn. I get in state tution. 6 k in financial aid grants as well as a 15k scholarship my first year. I am able to commute from home saving room and board costs. In sum I would have to pay around 33k for tution at uconn, which has also dropped in the rankings but is still ranked 62nd I believe.

Been to philly a couple times, which is more fun than CT, have family in CT tho, but philly is close enough to my home where I can come up on an often basis without it being costly. Nova has some good ties to some large firms in philly, there are no large firms in CT. These are some of the things I am thinking of right now. Nova's ranking being on the top of my list. Im also thinking of waiting out another year and seeing if i could get into better law schools, because tought times for law school students especially those that are not ranked in the top 20 even top 10, but both scholarship packages are very tempting.

Any thoughts from anyone?

Thanks in advance

Neither law school is going to open many doors for you unless maybe you are at or near the top of your class. Have you worked at a job involving the law to see if you really want to do it? My wife is an attorney and hates being a lawyer.

 

[8893]

I've been practicing for 10 years.

If I were you, I'd take the money. UConn isn't good enough for you to forego that scholarship.

If he wants to practice in CT, having graduated from UConn will pay dividends in countless ways for the rest of his legal career. It is a huge difference imo, and well worth the difference in cost.

Neither law school is going to open many doors for you unless maybe you are at or near the top of your class. Have you worked at a job involving the law to see if you really want to do it? My wife is an attorney and hates being a lawyer.

Most lawyers hate being lawyers (I love it).

While I agree that being top of the class trumps pretty much all else ("top of the class is top of the class," as I often say), I disagree that neither school will open many doors. They will mostly open different doors though. UConn provides many opportunities to make lasting connections that can open doors at all levels of practice within the state. Vanillanova will provide some limited alumni connections, and probably a better career placement office at the school (at least that has been my experience with private vs. public schools).

 

[nomar]

If he wants to practice in CT, having graduated from UConn will pay dividends in countless ways for the rest of his legal career. It is a huge difference imo, and well worth the difference in cost.


Most lawyers hate being lawyers (I love it).

While I agree that being top of the class trumps pretty much all else ("top of the class is top of the class," as I often say), I disagree that neither school will open many doors. They will mostly open different doors though. UConn provides many opportunities to make lasting connections that can open doors at all levels of practice within the state. Vanillanova will provide some limited alumni connections, and probably a better career placement office at the school (at least that has been my experience with private vs. public schools).

I actually like being a lawyer. And I resent it when people who don't like their job tell people who want to go to law school not to go. Now, having said that, I often advise people who are thinking of going to law school to not go, if I get the sense that they don't really want to practice law -- unless Daddy's paying for law school, getting a JD if you're not going to be a lawyer is a huge waste of time and expense. But I find it very obnoxious to tell someone who's interested in being a lawyer not to become a lawyer.

As to the first part, eh. If UConn was #100 and Nova was #60 and he wanted to practice law in CT, I'd say go to UConn without a doubt. But $33K is too much money to pass up given the highly speculative prospect of a UConn grad hooking him up in the future.

I like the law school I went to. It's a good school. I wouldn't take someone from my law school over someone from a similar school unless I thought he or she was a better fit. I hesitate to even say it's a tiebreaker. Sometimes, people do hook up people who went to their law schools. Do you want to bet $33K that somebody's gonna hook up Afg?

 

[8893]

I actually like being a lawyer. And I resent it when people who don't like their job tell people who want to go to law school not to go. Now, having said that, I often advise people who are thinking of going to law school to not go, if I get the sense that they don't really want to practice law -- unless Daddy's paying for law school, getting a JD if you're not going to be a lawyer is a huge waste of time and expense. But I find it very obnoxious to tell someone who's interested in being a lawyer not to become a lawyer.

As to the first part, eh. If UConn was #100 and Nova was #60 and he wanted to practice law in CT, I'd say go to UConn without a doubt. But $33K is too much money to pass up given the highly speculative prospect of a UConn grad hooking him up in the future.

I like the law school I went to. It's a good school. I wouldn't take someone from my law school over someone from a similar school unless I thought he or she was a better fit. I hesitate to even say it's a tiebreaker. Sometimes, people do hook up people who went to their law schools. Do you want to bet $33K that somebody's gonna hook up Afg?

I hope you didn't think I was trying to talk him out of it (although I generally take the same approach that you described when discussing it with those who are considering it).

As for the UConn advantage for an in-state practitioner, I'm not talking about getting a hiring preference from an alum. I'm talking about being exposed to and getting to know people at all levels of the practice throughout the state, both in terms of the adjunct faculty and internships, as well as among your own classmates. You can't swing a dead cat in the CT legal community without hitting a UConn alum, or someone you met, got to know, or at least knew of, while in law school here. The internship opportunities--for example, judicial clerkships or positions within the AG's office--are very valuable on many levels in my experience. I know all law schools provide these opportunities, but UConn obviously has the best opportunities within the state.

I'm not saying that it automatically and directly translates into a job. But I do think that it makes it easier to make connections, and can help you as a practical matter on a day-to-day basis because you are more familiar with the legal community than someone coming in from out of state when you've already been a part of it.

 

[nomar]

8893 - the first part was most certainly not directed at you. I should have made that clear.

As to the rest - fair points that should provide Afg with more to chew on.

 

[progrocks]

Read the fine print on the Nova offer. Those things are usually for the first year and if you are not in the top x%, it goes away the last two years and you are stuck.

 

[ChrisSmith]

Just was recently offered a full ride from Villanova law school as well as a 4k stipend my first year for living expenses. Sweet deal however I am very worried about Nova's dramatic drop in rankings from a law school in the 60's just 2 years ago to below 100 this year. I have until today to send in a deposit.

The other school that I was planning on going to before this full ride was uconn. I get in state tution. 6 k in financial aid grants as well as a 15k scholarship my first year. I am able to commute from home saving room and board costs. In sum I would have to pay around 33k for tution at uconn, which has also dropped in the rankings but is still ranked 62nd I believe.

Been to philly a couple times, which is more fun than CT, have family in CT tho, but philly is close enough to my home where I can come up on an often basis without it being costly. Nova has some good ties to some large firms in philly, there are no large firms in CT. These are some of the things I am thinking of right now. Nova's ranking being on the top of my list. Im also thinking of waiting out another year and seeing if i could get into better law schools, because tought times for law school students especially those that are not ranked in the top 20 even top 10, but both scholarship packages are very tempting.

Any thoughts from anyone?

Thanks in advance

They are close enough in quality where I say go for the full ride. Make sure you read the fine print though - what sort of GPA will you need to maintain to keep the scholarship year 2?

If it was a T-14 school, I'd say pay the money. But otherwise, as long as the 2 schools are in the same ballpark, minimize your debt.

 

[ChrisSmith]

On second though, what are your estimated room and board expenses at Villanova? I would assume $20k a year? So if you have to borrow $16k year 1 and $20k years 2 and 3, you are looking at $56k of debt and a Nova Law degree. If you would only need to borrow $33k a year from UConn, that's $99k and a UConn Law degree. At that point it's a closer call. Chances are you'll be making $45k -$55k a year when you graduate, and so $43k difference is still material - a year and half salary after taxes. I would still go Nova, assuming there is a lax GPA requirement.

 

[Fishy]

Can you rebound a basketball? Are you German?

If so, I think I have a way for you to attend UConn Law on scholarship.

 

[SouthTampaBill]

Lawyers
What leachers on our society.
They produce nothing. Just take.
They create laws that benefit them.
Disgusting.
Vomit

 

[8893]

South Tampa Bill, sigh
Lawyers do not create laws
Legislators do

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

Lawyers
What leachers on our society.
They produce nothing. Just take.
They create laws that benefit them.
Disgusting.
Vomit

You posted this at 5:55am, and I'm wondering:

• Did you wake up and start your day like this?
• Was this the result of waking up and starting your day with something better?
• Or, were you building your momentum for a wonderful day?

Wishing you a blessed day.

 

[Danzz]

Just was recently offered a full ride from Villanova law school as well as a 4k stipend my first year for living expenses. Sweet deal however I am very worried about Nova's dramatic drop in rankings from a law school in the 60's just 2 years ago to below 100 this year. I have until today to send in a deposit.

The other school that I was planning on going to before this full ride was uconn. I get in state tution. 6 k in financial aid grants as well as a 15k scholarship my first year. I am able to commute from home saving room and board costs. In sum I would have to pay around 33k for tution at uconn, which has also dropped in the rankings but is still ranked 62nd I believe.

Been to philly a couple times, which is more fun than CT, have family in CT tho, but philly is close enough to my home where I can come up on an often basis without it being costly. Nova has some good ties to some large firms in philly, there are no large firms in CT. These are some of the things I am thinking of right now. Nova's ranking being on the top of my list. Im also thinking of waiting out another year and seeing if i could get into better law schools, because tought times for law school students especially those that are not ranked in the top 20 even top 10, but both scholarship packages are very tempting.

Any thoughts from anyone?

Thanks in advance

Son went to Nova undergrad and could have gone to the law school. If you can do it for free, do it. It beats the hell out of owing 100K and looking for work.Villanova is a beautiful campus and the law school is very good.
Both my kids are attorneys and it is a tough gig right now. My daughter who is also an RN got out and took a corporate job with a NY hospital. She felt she had a more important job when she was nurse and just didn't like the whole big firm culture so it isn't for everyone.
A older attorney once told me that after 5 years in practice nobody asked him what law school he attended. If you can do it for free, do it now. If you wait a year you may be paying for it yourself. Congratulations and best of luck!

 

[RS9999X]

You can't sneer at a free degree. Do well, choose the right field of law of law, and you have money to take post-grad school classes later in another field if you want to beocme a specialist like a patent troll..

You do want to become a patent troll don't you?

 

[District-Husky]

Nova's a good school and a feeder into the Philly market. Take the free ride (although as someone else mentioned, check the fine print). Plus, Philly is a great town and getting much better - and its cheap. You can rent an apt in Center City, drive to Nova in a reverse commute, and still have your weekends in Center City to study in Rittenhouse Square. Plus you could work during your 2nd or 3rd year part time at a firm and get some resume experience.

All that said, the job market for attorneys blows and doesn't appear to be getting any better.

 

[8893]

You posted this at 5:55am, and I'm wondering:

• Did you wake up and start your day like this?
• Was this the result of waking up and starting your day with something better?
• Or, were you building your momentum for a wonderful day?

Wishing you a blessed day.

I'm gonna take a wild guess that Bill is divorced.

As a group, divorced men tend to really hate lawyers. Not that others don't as well...

 

[BUHusky]

Read the fine print on the Nova offer. Those things are usually for the first year and if you are not in the top x%, it goes away the last two years and you are stuck.

This is a great point and something the New York Times wrote a piece about last year: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/business/law-school-grants.html?pagewanted=all

Buyer beware.