OT: Deflategate: Powerful Accusations & Well Written.

[toadfoot]

No! What I said is based on conversations I have personally had with about a half dozen current and ex NFL assistant coaches.

Here is an article by Jason La Canfora basically stating the exact same thing!

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer...e-find-doctoring-nfl-footballs-is-nothing-new

There's so much wrong with this article it's difficult to know where to begin.

1. It was written when it was still accepted as fact that the Patriots footballs were under inflated by 2 PSI, which we now know to be totally false.
2. None of the supposed "doctoring" by former quarterbacks mentioned altering ball pressure, but only altering the "feel" of the ball surface. That was before the NFL allowed teams to prepare their own game balls (excluding kicking balls). Conflating ball preparation before the rule change with an alleged deflation scheme is disengenuous at best.

 

[lne001]

Not exactly true.

I'm never exact, but it's close enough to be a good working rule of thumb. By the way, which professional sports don't cheat, and I'm including performance enhancing drugs.

 

[toadfoot]

IMHO Brady obviously had the balls doctored but so does every other QB in the NFL.

Define "doctoring". Does every QB have balls rubbed up to achieve the proper feel, absolutely. All perfectly legal and within the rules. There has never been any evidence brought forth since this entire farce began that ANY quarterback has improperly had ball pressure altered outside the allowable range. Even the NFL attorney admitted before Judge Berman that no such evidence existed against Brady. And I've read of no such evidence against any other quarterback.

 

[malevocalist#]

I'm never exact, but it's close enough to be a good working rule of thumb. By the way, which professional sports don't cheat, and I'm including performance enhancing drugs.

My point is plain and simple. "Not everyone cheats." So including everyone (Persons) in that box makes no sense. Your talking about the sport. I'm talking about the person.

I'm not talking about the sport itself. But I'm talking about every individual playing the sport.

 

[lne001]

My point is plain and simple. "Not everyone cheats." So including everyone (Persons) in that box makes no sense. Your talking about the sport. I'm talking about the person.

I'm not talking about the sport itself. But I'm talking about every individual playing the sport.

I realize that, but I still am of the opinion that the vast majority of professional athletes 'cheat', or gain an edge as they might say. I'm curious whom you think are the saints out there.

 

[pinotbear]

I realize that, but I still am of the opinion that the vast majority of professional athletes 'cheat', or gain an edge as they might say. I'm curious whom you think are the saints out there.

Who said anything about saints, and how can you substantiate your claim that "the vast majority of professional athletes cheat"?
You're very good at throwing marginally-applicable facts at other's posts and positions, and very comfortable throwing out blanket statements of your own, without substantiation.

 

[TitleTown]

I hear you loud and clear. But let's not forget how many times these same coaches dispise the Goat.

Not to mention how many times Bill & TB12
Defeated these assistant coaches who rather believe (The Greatest Lie Ever Told) than the truth. Lol.

Well the majority of the coaches I spoke with are with the NY Giants which is an organization that was 2-0 vs "the GOAT" in Super Bowls.

 

[toadfoot]

Just one final post and I'm done. I have no desire to rehash this issue ad infinitum, but here are a few additional facts that I believe played a huge role in this entire witch hunt.

1. The special teams coach for the Ravens called Colts head coach Pagano complaining the Ravens had issues (soft) with the kicking balls during the Ravens/Patriots game. Pagano passed that information to Sean Sullivan, the Colts equipment manager. Note that kicking balls are under complete and total control of the officials.
2. The Colts equipment manage then sent an email to Colts GM Grigson claiming that it was well know around the league that Patriots staff removed air from footballs after they've been approved by the officials. He makes this claim absent any evidence. It's unclear whether Sullivan simply misunderstood the call from the Raven's coach or whether he deliberately and maliciously embellished when communicating with Grigson.
3. Grigson then calls the league office and notifies Mike Kensil of his suspicions that the Patriots illegally tamper with game balls, again with zero evidence. The same Mike Kensil who openly detests Belichick because he worked in the Jets front office when Belichick was the Jets head coach for a cup of coffee before going to New England.
4. The Colts equipment people illegally check the PSI of a New England game ball just before halftime, find it below the 12.5 PSI limit and notify league representatives.
5. Kensil barges into the New England locker room at halftime exclaiming that "You're %^$%#". Kensil later admits under questioning that he was completely unaware of the Ideal Gas Law.

Anyone who can't smell the stench of this needs to see an ear, nose and throat specialist. Never in my life have I seen such a clearcut case of administrators and owners in a professional sports league collude so brazenly to punish a fellow member for nothing more than franchise jealousy.

 

[pinotbear]

Well the majority of the coaches I spoke with are with the NY Giants which is an organization that was 2-0 vs "the GOAT" in Super Bowls.

and, what does that have to do with anything? Yet another poster who throws interesting, but, totally irrelevant facts, into their "arguments".

 

[Alydar]

There was some kid (8th grader?) on the local news a couple of days ago that did a deflate gate science project. His conclusions were that the balls lost an average of 2 PSI after being inflated at normal room temperature and then taken to the field where temperatures were much lower. The TV station submitted his research to an MIT professor who agreed with his findings.

I think 2 PSI was the pressure difference that the NFL complained about.

Then why didn't the balls used by the other team deflate?

And why does everyone assume the alleged deflation was done for Brady? Just as likely it helped his receivers.

 

[j66kicker]

Well the majority of the coaches I spoke with are with the NY Giants which is an organization that was 2-0 vs "the GOAT" in Super Bowls.

Well, since your premise is that, "All NFL teams cheat" - based primarily on reports from NY Giants assistant coaches - then it appears we can conclude that the Giants must have cheated to win those 2 SB's, no?

 

[toadfoot]

Then why didn't the balls used by the other team deflate?

And why does everyone assume the alleged deflation was done for Brady? Just as likely it helped his receivers.

Who says they didn't. The officials themselves claimed they ran out of time testing the Colt's balls, which clearly suggests the Colt's balls sat in a warm locker room for up to 10 minutes while the Patriots' balls were tested and re-inflated. This topic has been covered in countless rebuttals to the Wells Report. Independent tests show that just 7-10 minutes would be sufficient to raise the PSI 0.7-1.0.

 

[toadfoot]

Then why didn't the balls used by the other team deflate?

And why does everyone assume the alleged deflation was done for Brady? Just as likely it helped his receivers.

A good discussion related to this, as I said above, one of many is here:

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/05/07/holes-in-nfls-deflategate-report/

 

[TitleTown]

and, what does that have to do with anything? Yet another poster who throws interesting, but, totally irrelevant facts, into their "arguments".

Did you read what I quoted in my post? Obviously not, because if you did you would have realized that I was replying to the OP who thought that all the Brady criticism must have come from jealous teams.

 

[TitleTown]

Well, since your premise is that, "All NFL teams cheat" - based primarily on reports from NY Giants assistant coaches - then it appears we can conclude that the Giants must have cheated to win those 2 SB's, no?

Conclude what you want, but I don't consider it to be cheating when both teams are doing it and thus neither team has an unfair advantage. I stated that I didn't see a problem with what Brady did in my very first post.

 

[toadfoot]

Conclude what you want, but I don't consider it to be cheating when both teams are doing it and thus neither team has an unfair advantage. I stated that I didn't see a problem with what Brady did in my very first post.

I do consider it cheating even if both teams do it, but there's no evidence that Brady or anyone else connected with the Patriots did anything. The heart of DeflateGate is which gauge was used prior to the start of the game. Walt Anderson was certain that he had used the Wilson logo gauge and he was sure because it was significantly different from the other gauge (despite the fraudulent attempt by the Wells investigators to mask the differences by manipulating the way the gauges were displayed in the final report). He only conceded after repeated questioning that it was "possible" he was mistaken. The Wells Report then assumed he was mistaken despite his "best recollection" because it was the only way their predetermined outcome could have been accurate. If he was correct about which gauge he used, and he says he was, then the Ideal Gas Law perfectly predicts the readings that were taken at halftime.
One of the best rebuttals I've seen was by Drew Fustin. His conclusion is that with all the available PSI evidence, Anderson's recollection must be correct, otherwise none of the subsequent PSI evidence makes scientific sense.

http://drewfustin.com/deflategate/

 

[Alydar]

Who says they didn't. The officials themselves claimed they ran out of time testing the Colt's balls, which clearly suggests the Colt's balls sat in a warm locker room for up to 10 minutes while the Patriots' balls were tested and re-inflated. This topic has been covered in countless rebuttals to the Wells Report. Independent tests show that just 7-10 minutes would be sufficient to raise the PSI 0.7-1.0.

I really haven't read much about this whole matter other than headlines and honestly don't care much either way. But I am amazd at the array of mostly Boston-based academics that have taken the time to provide all this pseudo-scientific evidence to support Brady. I'd like to see how many Patriot shirts they have in their closets. LOL

 

[toadfoot]

I really haven't read much about this whole matter other than headlines and honestly don't care much either way. But I am amazd at the array of mostly Boston-based academics that have taken the time to provide all this pseudo-scientific evidence to support Brady. I'd like to see how many Patriot shirts they have in their closets. LOL

Your first sentence says it all, but here's one example of your alleged pseudo scientist.

Drew Fustin:
PhD Physics (2012) – The University of Chicago [Experimental Dark Matter Physics – Juan Collar, advisor]
MS Physics (2005) – The University of Chicago
BS Physics, Mathematics, Astronomy (2004) – Drake University

I'm sure the University of Chicago hands out PhD's in physics to just anyone.

 

[UcMiami]

I really haven't read much about this whole matter other than headlines and honestly don't care much either way. But I am amazd at the array of mostly Boston-based academics that have taken the time to provide all this pseudo-scientific evidence to support Brady. I'd like to see how many Patriot shirts they have in their closets. LOL

A lot of them are actually NY and PA based scientists. The brief is filed by an LI based attorney I believe who is a big fan of the Giants I think. Two of the best writers on this subject and the papers who have been most critical of the NFL are Dallas News and Washington Post

 

[Alydar]

Y
Drew Fustin:
PhD Physics (2012) – The University of Chicago [Experimental Dark Matter Physics – Juan Collar, advisor]
MS Physics (2005) – The University of Chicago
BS Physics, Mathematics, Astronomy (2004) – Drake University

I'm sure the University of Chicago hands out PhD's in physics to just anyone.

In the interest of full disclosure I am a Giant fan so I have no grudge against the Patriots. But I think you missed this part of Dr Fustin's resume:

After becoming an obsessive fan in 1993 when the Patriots drafted Drew Bledsoe, because we had the same name (which, to my 11 year old brain, made a ton of sense),

http://drewfustin.com/deflategate/

Dr Fustin may have made his bones in Chicago but his heart lies in Beantown.

 

[Husky25]

I really haven't read much about this whole matter other than headlines and honestly don't care much either way. But I am amazd at the array of mostly Boston-based academics that have taken the time to provide all this pseudo-scientific evidence to support Brady. I'd like to see how many Patriot shirts they have in their closets. LOL

If you have read only the headlines, which the NFL has virtually controlled by way of ESPN, then how can you conclude that the Pro-Brady evidence is pseudo-scientific, but come to no conclusion (let alone negative) about the NFL's "evidence?"

 

[Husky25]

Air comes out of car tires, bicycles, basketballs, and ballons etc. and just about anything containing air. Thats why they have pumps etc. So what in the blue moon ever made Goodell thought a football was airproof? SMH.

Air does not exactly come out of "car tires, bicycles, basketballs, and ballons etc. and just about anything containing air."

The molecules contract as the temperature decreases.

 

[Goodgood]

I really haven't read much about this whole matter other than headlines and honestly don't care much either way. But I am amazd at the array of mostly Boston-based academics that have taken the time to provide all this pseudo-scientific evidence to support Brady. I'd like to see how many Patriot shirts they have in their closets. LOL

Please read more and let us know if us know if your opinion has changed afterward.

 

[toadfoot]

In the interest of full disclosure I am a Giant fan so I have no grudge against the Patriots. But I think you missed this part of Dr Fustin's resume:



http://drewfustin.com/deflategate/

Dr Fustin may have made his bones in Chicago but his heart lies in Beantown.

I was fully aware that Fustin is a Patriots fan, he makes no pretense otherwise, but that doesn't negate the facts of his paper. You also apparently miss the irony that you can accuse him of bias because he's a Patriots fan, but excuse your own as a fan of another team.
Since you accuse him of bias I eagerly await your scholarly rebuttal to his analysis.

 

[JordyG]

You bring up a very important point about the phone. NFL...Knowing that They had all the information of a phone conversation already.

...It was fruitless to ask for TB12 phone. Unless something more sinister was at work.

Now I'm assuming here...They knew Brady would not give up his phone. They are not stupid toward player's policies regarding private property. But let's ask him for it anyway. So he could look guilty before the public by refusing, which said public was unaware of the player's policy.

This was just another tactical ploy of the NFL. They knew public opinon - who were ignorant toward player's policies - would weigh in and declare him guilty. And knew they would never get a phone. For which information they already had pertaining to the phone. Well I'll be dam.

Whether you believe the NFL and their scanty evidence or not let's put part of this cell phone canard to rest. The league NEVER asked Brady to surrender his cell. Few people would surrender such. What they asked was for him to surrender a print out of what BRADY would consider as texts relevant to the case. This is what was so puzzlingly refused.

 

[Alydar]

I was fully aware that Fustin is a Patriots fan, he makes no pretense otherwise, but that doesn't negate the facts of his paper. You also apparently miss the irony that you can accuse him of bias because he's a Patriots fan, but excuse your own as a fan of another team.
Since you accuse him of bias I eagerly await your scholarly rebuttal to his analysis.

I have 2 Super Bowl DVD's that I offer as evidence as why I have no bias against Brady or the Patriots. Why should I? And in any case, unlike Dr Fustin, I am not offering any argument either way.

What I find revealing though is that you intentionally posted his Chicago-based credentials as a rebuttal to my comment about Boston-based academics, knowing full well that he was a Patriot fan.

 

[Husky25]

I have 2 Super Bowl DVD's that I offer as evidence as why I have no bias against Brady or the Patriots. Why should I? And in any case, unlike Dr Fustin, I am not offering any argument either way.

What I find revealing though is that you intentionally posted his Chicago-based credentials as a rebuttal to my comment about Boston-based academics, knowing full well that he was a Patriot fan.

For someone who doesn't care either way, you sure do post on the subject more often than one would expect.

 

[toadfoot]

I have 2 Super Bowl DVD's that I offer as evidence as why I have no bias against Brady or the Patriots. Why should I? And in any case, unlike Dr Fustin, I am not offering any argument either way.

What I find revealing though is that you intentionally posted his Chicago-based credentials as a rebuttal to my comment about Boston-based academics, knowing full well that he was a Patriot fan.

You find it revealing of what exactly?
I posted Fustin's analysis specifically because he was a Patriots fan and was from the Boston area.

 

[Alydar]

You find it revealing of what exactly?
I posted Fustin's analysis specifically because he was a Patriots fan and was from the Boston area.

I posted this:

I really haven't read much about this whole matter other than headlines and honestly don't care much either way. But I am amazd at the array of mostly Boston-based academics that have taken the time to provide all this pseudo-scientific evidence to support Brady. I'd like to see how many Patriot shirts they have in their closets. LOL

My post clearly suggested bias due to them being Patriot fans. And your rebuttal was this:

Your first sentence says it all, but here's one example of your alleged pseudo scientist.

Drew Fustin:
PhD Physics (2012) – The University of Chicago [Experimental Dark Matter Physics – Juan Collar, advisor]
MS Physics (2005) – The University of Chicago
BS Physics, Mathematics, Astronomy (2004) – Drake University

I'm sure the University of Chicago hands out PhD's in physics to just anyone.

A reasonable person would assume you were saying he wasn't a Boston-based academic and therefore without bias. If you were honest about his fandom I wouldn't have had to Google him.

And for the record, I didn't call him or any of the Brady/Patriot supporters pseudo scientists. It is their arguments that are pseudo-science.

Believe me, I have nothing but contempt for the NFL commissioner. Their history with regards to domestic violence and traumatic head injuries has soured me to the entire sport.

 

[Husky25]

And for the record, I didn't call him or any of the Brady/Patriot supporters pseudo scientists. It is their arguments that are pseudo-science.

The dust that used to be Robert Boyle, Joseph Louis Gay-Lussac, and Jacques Charles just rolled over in their respective graves.

You do believe in the properties of decomposition, don't you? Or is that just more pseudo-science?