OT: Canelo v. Chavez

[NielsisGood]

Untrue.

But it's good. Will be a more interesting fight. It's not about shutting people up. It's about entertainment.
Floyd's old.
Roy J.Jr. was the most dominant boxer in his prime that I've seen, then a switch went off and he was done. Forty is old.
Floyd hasn't knocked a guy out in what? Six years? And he's KOed 2 in the last 11? Good luck with your knockout theory.

Would be a good fight. I'd like to see it.

Roy Jones Jr declined so quickly because he was unorthodox and relied almost completely on his athleticism, whereas Floyd excelled because he's one of the best technical fighters of all time. RJJ fought with his hands down for the most part, and once he lost his speed he was getting tagged. The only time I've ever seen Floyd get tagged was when Mosley almost dropped him early in their fight.

That's definitely too much explaining things just to say that Floyd would crush Connor.

 

[aceboon]

Untrue.

But it's good. Will be a more interesting fight. It's not about shutting people up. It's about entertainment.
Floyd's old.
Roy J.Jr. was the most dominant boxer in his prime that I've seen, then a switch went off and he was done. Forty is old.
Floyd hasn't knocked a guy out in what? Six years? And he's KOed 2 in the last 11? Good luck with your knockout theory.

Would be a good fight. I'd like to see it.

Comparing RJJ losing to guys like Tarver and Johnson and Floyd potentially losing to a guy who has never had a professional boxing match doesn't seem wise, and RJJ's fall off can be traced back to when he moved back down to LHW after putting all that weight and muscle on for the Ruiz fight at HW, a move back down in weight that was strongly advised against by his S&C coach Mackie Shilstone, and he paid for it. Floyd hasn't put his body through that kind of situation.

 

[NielsisGood]

Comparing RJJ losing to guys like Tarver and Johnson and Floyd potentially losing to a guy who has never had a professional boxing match doesn't seem wise, and RJJ's fall off can be traced back to when he moved back down to LHW after putting all that weight and muscle on for the Ruiz fight at HW, a move back down in weight that was strongly advised against by his S&C coach Mackie Shilstone, and he paid for it. Floyd hasn't put his body through that kind of situation.

The same thing would have happened to RJJ regardless of what weight he fought at. Moving back down probably just accelerated the process. Look at Sergio Martinez, he fought the same type of style as RJJ and fell off a cliff once age caught up to him and he had lost his quickness.

 

[methodology]

Untrue.

But it's good. Will be a more interesting fight. It's not about shutting people up. It's about entertainment.
Floyd's old.
Roy J.Jr. was the most dominant boxer in his prime that I've seen, then a switch went off and he was done. Forty is old.
Floyd hasn't knocked a guy out in what? Six years? And he's KOed 2 in the last 11? Good luck with your knockout theory.

Would be a good fight. I'd like to see it.

Where did I say anything about a knockout?

Keep slurping on Dana white and McGregor. This is like when lavar ball said he can beat Jordan.

Floyd never has to take a punch he can dance around and counter punch all day. He doesn't need to knock him out.

 

[aceboon]

The same thing would have happened to RJJ regardless of what weight he fought at. Moving back down probably just accelerated the process. Look at Sergio Martinez, he fought the same type of style as RJJ and fell off a cliff once age caught up to him and he had lost his quickness.

Obviously he would've declined and fallen off, its called life, I'm referring to the dramatic and rapid fall off, which the changes in weight and muscle accelerated. The same thing happened to Tarver when he put on the weight for the Rocky movie and he admitted it publicly. Sergio's decline was also accelerated by other factors, the knee injury he suffered in the JCC Jr fight destroyed him. By the time the Cotto fight took place he was literally dragging his right leg around the ring.

 

[NielsisGood]

Obviously he would've declined and fallen off, its called life, I'm referring to the dramatic and rapid fall off, which the changes in weight and muscle accelerated. The same thing happened to Tarver when he put on the weight for the Rocky movie and he admitted it publicly. Sergio's decline was also accelerated by other factors, the knee injury he suffered in the JCC Jr fight destroyed him. By the time the Cotto fight took place he was literally dragging his right leg around the ring.

You're kind of losing track of what I actually said in favor of trying to trivialize it. I'm using Sergio as proof of a guy with a similar style to RJJ completely falling off a cliff even without the weight gain/cut. Pointing out that Sergio lost athleticism due to the knee injury and looked so terrible afterward actually helps make my point.

 

[aceboon]

You're kind of losing track of what I actually said in favor of trying to trivialize it. I'm using Sergio as proof of a guy with a similar style to RJJ completely falling off a cliff even without the weight gain/cut. Pointing out that Sergio lost athleticism due to the knee injury and looked so terrible afterward actually helps make my point.

Not losing track of anything, I'm pointing out stuff you clearly didn't know. This thing you do where you pop up every now and then behaving like a jackwagon because of your mental disorder is something that might entertain others, but I don't really care for it. You can have a good day now.

 

[NielsisGood]

Not losing track of anything, I'm pointing out stuff you clearly didn't know. This thing you do where you pop up every now and then behaving like a jackwagon because of your mental disorder is something that might entertain others, but I don't really care for it. You can have a good day now.

It's actually pretty obvious that the point I made is due to having a higher level of knowledge than you, hence the comparison I made between 2 fighters that you for some reason tried to argue against while bringing points up to support what I was saying. I tried to be nice about but after this bizarre little outburst I can see that it wasn't really necessary. Seems like you've probably been tagged up worse a few times than JCC on Saturday.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Roy Jones Jr declined so quickly because he was unorthodox and relied almost completely on his athleticism, whereas Floyd excelled because he's one of the best technical fighters of all time. RJJ fought with his hands down for the most part, and once he lost his speed he was getting tagged. The only time I've ever seen Floyd get tagged was when Mosley almost dropped him early in their fight.

That's definitely too much explaining things just to say that Floyd would crush Connor.

Comparing RJJ losing to guys like Tarver and Johnson and Floyd potentially losing to a guy who has never had a professional boxing match doesn't seem wise, and RJJ's fall off can be traced back to when he moved back down to LHW after putting all that weight and muscle on for the Ruiz fight at HW, a move back down in weight that was strongly advised against by his S&C coach Mackie Shilstone, and he paid for it. Floyd hasn't put his body through that kind of situation.

Put me in the RJJ camp. In his prime 10 years the best boxer across 30 lbs of weight classes. Roy simply toyed with the best; he could go rounds without being hit. And, unlike most boxers, RJJ is a well-rounded athlete who actually played CBA basketball (as a gimmick) in the day and fought a boxing match that night.

RJJ missed out on being a PPV king. He had a style similar to Floyd of not getting hit but he didn't have the showmanship of Floyd. Living in the Florida panhandle vice living in Vegas probably didn't help Jones.

Roy Jones Jr. - Wikipedia

Former Heavyweight Champion George Foreman said Jones, "hits like a heavyweight and moves like a lightweight."

Boxer Montell Griffin, who faced Jones twice at 175 lbs and sparred with Floyd Mayweather Jr. at 140 lbs said, "Floyd was no comparison as far as speed. Roy was much faster."

In 1996, High Frequency Boxing's John DiMaio wrote "The early evidence points toward the real possibility that Jones is the greatest talent this sport has ever seen. His skill so dwarfs that of his nearest ranked opposition...that providing competitive opponents is a more challenging dilemma than the fights themselves." The expert opinion of Boxing magazine's editor, Bert Sugar, is provided on Jones' website: "He possesses the fastest hands in boxing with lightning fast moves and explosive power in both hands." After Mike MacCallum lost the World Boxing Council light heavyweight crown to Roy Jones in a 1996 unanimous decision, he called Jones "the greatest fighter of all time."

 

[Marat]

Agreed, RJJ was incredible in his prime. See below......



Too bad he didn't know when to hang up the gloves, though - as he's fought way past his prime.

Put me in the RJJ camp. In his prime 10 years the best boxer across 30 lbs of weight classes. Roy simply toyed with the best; he could go rounds without being hit. And, unlike most boxers, RJJ is a well-rounded athlete who actually played CBA basketball (as a gimmick) in the day and fought a boxing match that night.

RJJ missed out on being a PPV king. He had a style similar to Floyd of not getting hit but he didn't have the showmanship of Floyd. Living in the Florida panhandle vice living in Vegas probably didn't help Jones.

Roy Jones Jr. - Wikipedia

Former Heavyweight Champion George Foreman said Jones, "hits like a heavyweight and moves like a lightweight."

Boxer Montell Griffin, who faced Jones twice at 175 lbs and sparred with Floyd Mayweather Jr. at 140 lbs said, "Floyd was no comparison as far as speed. Roy was much faster."

In 1996, High Frequency Boxing's John DiMaio wrote "The early evidence points toward the real possibility that Jones is the greatest talent this sport has ever seen. His skill so dwarfs that of his nearest ranked opposition...that providing competitive opponents is a more challenging dilemma than the fights themselves." The expert opinion of Boxing magazine's editor, Bert Sugar, is provided on Jones' website: "He possesses the fastest hands in boxing with lightning fast moves and explosive power in both hands." After Mike MacCallum lost the World Boxing Council light heavyweight crown to Roy Jones in a 1996 unanimous decision, he called Jones "the greatest fighter of all time."

 

[aceboon]

Put me in the RJJ camp. In his prime 10 years the best boxer across 30 lbs of weight classes. Roy simply toyed with the best; he could go rounds without being hit. And, unlike most boxers, RJJ is a well-rounded athlete who actually played CBA basketball (as a gimmick) in the day and fought a boxing match that night.

RJJ missed out on being a PPV king. He had a style similar to Floyd of not getting hit but he didn't have the showmanship of Floyd. Living in the Florida panhandle vice living in Vegas probably didn't help Jones.

Roy Jones Jr. - Wikipedia

Former Heavyweight Champion George Foreman said Jones, "hits like a heavyweight and moves like a lightweight."

Boxer Montell Griffin, who faced Jones twice at 175 lbs and sparred with Floyd Mayweather Jr. at 140 lbs said, "Floyd was no comparison as far as speed. Roy was much faster."

In 1996, High Frequency Boxing's John DiMaio wrote "The early evidence points toward the real possibility that Jones is the greatest talent this sport has ever seen. His skill so dwarfs that of his nearest ranked opposition...that providing competitive opponents is a more challenging dilemma than the fights themselves." The expert opinion of Boxing magazine's editor, Bert Sugar, is provided on Jones' website: "He possesses the fastest hands in boxing with lightning fast moves and explosive power in both hands." After Mike MacCallum lost the World Boxing Council light heavyweight crown to Roy Jones in a 1996 unanimous decision, he called Jones "the greatest fighter of all time."

RJJ was the most athletic and naturally gifted boxer that I've seen in my lifetime, but I think Floyd was more technically sound and RJJ's flaws technically got exposed more as he advanced in age and his reflexes and body declined. RJJ missed out on PPVs because he never signed to a big promoter(limiting his reach and resources) and the LHW division was so weak at his peak and he didn't have much in the way of marketable opposition, I think if he had stayed at HW and been very selective in picking out opponents he could have cashed out well with a few PPVs. But once he went back to LHW and got KO'd a few times that was the end of that.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Agreed, RJJ was incredible in his prime. See below.



Too bad he didn't know when to hang up the gloves, though - as he's fought way past his prime.

RJJ was the most athletic and naturally gifted boxer that I've seen in my lifetime, but I think Floyd was more technically sound and RJJ's flaws technically got exposed more as he advanced in age and his reflexes and body declined. RJJ missed out on PPVs because he never signed to a big promoter(limiting his reach and resources) and the LHW division was so weak at his peak and he didn't have much in the way of marketable opposition, I think if he had stayed at HW and been very selective in picking out opponents he could have cashed out well with a few PPVs. But once he went back to LHW and got KO'd a few times that was the end of that.

Not disagreeing that Jones had some technical flaws. I think he stuck around because of money. I read some stuff that says he earned like $40-$50 million in his career. It's a ton, but anyone who knows how boxing works knows he maybe saw half that.

Jones definitely separates from Mayweather with his power. Jones had legit knockout power from Middleweight to Light Heavyweight division. As a heavyweight he was meh for power. Combination of athleticism to avoid getting hit, athleticism to get in striking range and speed/power of his hits was unmatched.

Full disclosure, I've had the chance to meet RJJ a few times. He still regularly plays pick up basketball at the Navy base in Pensacola and was known to hang out at local malls taking pics and signing autographs for free. Even with his self-induced bad publicity over the cock fighting, he has a sterling reputation in the community. He easily could have made a bunch more money selling his name and his presence.

 

[NielsisGood]

Put me in the RJJ camp. In his prime 10 years the best boxer across 30 lbs of weight classes. Roy simply toyed with the best; he could go rounds without being hit. And, unlike most boxers, RJJ is a well-rounded athlete who actually played CBA basketball (as a gimmick) in the day and fought a boxing match that night.

RJJ missed out on being a PPV king. He had a style similar to Floyd of not getting hit but he didn't have the showmanship of Floyd. Living in the Florida panhandle vice living in Vegas probably didn't help Jones.

Roy Jones Jr. - Wikipedia

Former Heavyweight Champion George Foreman said Jones, "hits like a heavyweight and moves like a lightweight."

Boxer Montell Griffin, who faced Jones twice at 175 lbs and sparred with Floyd Mayweather Jr. at 140 lbs said, "Floyd was no comparison as far as speed. Roy was much faster."

In 1996, High Frequency Boxing's John DiMaio wrote "The early evidence points toward the real possibility that Jones is the greatest talent this sport has ever seen. His skill so dwarfs that of his nearest ranked opposition...that providing competitive opponents is a more challenging dilemma than the fights themselves." The expert opinion of Boxing magazine's editor, Bert Sugar, is provided on Jones' website: "He possesses the fastest hands in boxing with lightning fast moves and explosive power in both hands." After Mike MacCallum lost the World Boxing Council light heavyweight crown to Roy Jones in a 1996 unanimous decision, he called Jones "the greatest fighter of all time."

You tagged us both when neither of us were saying RJJ was worse than anyone in particular.

 

[Chin Diesel]

You tagged us both when neither of us were saying RJJ was worse than anyone in particular.

I tagged you guys because we kinda took OP off on a tangent about Mayweather and Jones. No intent to start an argument.

 

[TheChamps990411]

GGG is #1 in ESPN's p4p and #3 in Ring's p4p list, it's not like people aren't aware of how good GGG is. Like I said though, Canelo is the best combination of punching power and good chin that GGG will have faced. The thing that makes this fight so interesting is that both guys come forward and have good chins and good power, and neither has really fought an A-level fighter in that style.

Canelo can hit hard enough at 160lbs to keep guys honest but he does not pack the punch that its going to take to hurt someone like GGG whos shown he has a chin made of granite. Lemieux, Stevens and Jacobs all punch harder than Canelo and are bigger guys who all landed on GGGs chin at some point in their fights and he took them.
Ill tell you where Canelo is going to lose the fight and you nailed it on the head without realizing it when you said "both guys come forward and have good chins and good power". Chin and power. The edge in both those categories go to GGG and its not close. To beat GGG you can not fight him the way you are describing. To beat GGG you have to give constant movement. You have to unload your shots and be gone by the time he sets his feet and is ready to deliver his shots. Anyone with half a brain knows Canelo is flat footed, with feet that move like theyre in molasses and tends to have trouble keeping the pace because of his questionable stamina and that will be his downfall in this fight. Floyd dominated him badly for this very reason. Floyd would hit him with the 1,2 then simply move away before canelo could set his feet to throw.
GGG is a master tactician when it comes to cutting off the ring and he wont need to against Canelo. Now canelo is very good defensively with his guard and occasionally rolls the shoulder pretty effectively but hes very stiff at the waist and is limited with his head movement. Sure hes going to put up a good fight and it wouldnt surprise me if he won a lot of the early rounds but once GGG starts figuring out the holes in that defense and starts landing those bombs its going to be a long night for Canelo and eventually he gets stopped. I dont see this fight ending any other way. By the way im a big canelo fan but ive seen enough of him to see his deficiencies and how this is a bad match up for him. Hopefully we get a good fight.

 

[TheChamps990411]

I'm not a Floyd fan at all, but he would toy with him and it would be a completely boring fight.

Conor has not looked good in sparring sessions from various reports.



TRAINER REVEALS CONOR MCGREGOR LOOKED BAD SPARRING; SAYS VAN HEERDEN "BOXED THE OUT OF HIM"

Van Heerden is a D level fighter who last i saw of him was in the ring looking clueless and getting dominated and stopped by the young super prospect Errol Spence.

I dont have a problem with the fight taking place as Ali did something similar with Alzado late in his career but for Floyd to treat this as anything more than an exhibition and have it count as win #50 is a total joke and a slap in the face of the sport. Boxing right now is on the upswing and seems to be coming out of the Floyd induced coma its been in for the last decade or so we dont need this a on ppv charging idiots for a fight thats going to be the usual dose of lunesta then all those same idiots complaining the next day that "the fight sucked! Boxing is lame!"

 

[TheChamps990411]

A level boxer toying with an A level mma fighter. This is just an idea what what Floyd/Conor is going to look like.

 

[NielsisGood]

Canelo can hit hard enough at 160lbs to keep guys honest but he does not pack the punch that its going to take to hurt someone like GGG whos shown he has a chin made of granite. Lemieux, Stevens and Jacobs all punch harder than Canelo and are bigger guys who all landed on GGGs chin at some point in their fights and he took them.
Ill tell you where Canelo is going to lose the fight and you nailed it on the head without realizing it when you said "both guys come forward and have good chins and good power". Chin and power. The edge in both those categories go to GGG and its not close. To beat GGG you can not fight him the way you are describing. To beat GGG you have to give constant movement. You have to unload your shots and be gone by the time he sets his feet and is ready to deliver his shots. Anyone with half a brain knows Canelo is flat footed, with feet that move like theyre in molasses and tends to have trouble keeping the pace because of his questionable stamina and that will be his downfall in this fight. Floyd dominated him badly for this very reason. Floyd would hit him with the 1,2 then simply move away before canelo could set his feet to throw.
GGG is a master tactician when it comes to cutting off the ring and he wont need to against Canelo. Now canelo is very good defensively with his guard and occasionally rolls the shoulder pretty effectively but hes very stiff at the waist and is limited with his head movement. Sure hes going to put up a good fight and it wouldnt surprise me if he won a lot of the early rounds but once GGG starts figuring out the holes in that defense and starts landing those bombs its going to be a long night for Canelo and eventually he gets stopped. I dont see this fight ending any other way. By the way im a big canelo fan but ive seen enough of him to see his deficiencies and how this is a bad match up for him. Hopefully we get a good fight.

Sorry didn't really read this wall of text when you completely undersold Canelo's power and completely oversold GGG's chin, and then proceeded to talk about how Floyd dominated Canelo while neglecting to mention that Alvarez was 22 years old at the time of the fight, and that Floyd dominates everyone with the style that he has.


GGG has more power than Canelo, to be sure, but his chin hasn't really been tested the way Canelo's was against Kirkland. Not even worth mentioning guys like Stevens, Jacobs, and Lemieux when their resumes are so far below what Canelo has done.

 

[TheChamps990411]

Sorry didn't really read this wall of text when you completely undersold Canelo's power and completely oversold GGG's chin, and then proceeded to talk about how Floyd dominated Canelo while neglecting to mention that Alvarez was 22 years old at the time of the fight, and that Floyd dominates everyone with the style that he has.


GGG has more power than Canelo, to be sure, but his chin hasn't really been tested the way Canelo's was against Kirkland. Not even worth mentioning guys like Stevens, Jacobs, and Lemieux when their resumes are so far below what Canelo has done.

Undersold Canelos power? Hes fought nothing but blown up WW most of his career lol! Cotto little brother had Canelo on qweer street and hes wasnt even a big puncher. He ko`d Khan and Kirkland lol! Two guys that have been kod before with fine china for chins. When has GGG even been hurt? And you talk about underselling but you write off 3 of the hardest hitters in the sport in Stevens, Jacombs and Lemieux? lol
Well none of this back and forth matters because youll see clearly on Sept 16th just how wrong you are.

 

[NielsisGood]

Undersold Canelos power? Hes fought nothing but blown up WW most of his career lol! Cotto little brother had Canelo on qweer street and hes wasnt even a big puncher. He ko`d Khan and Kirkland lol! Two guys that have been kod before with fine china for chins. When has GGG even been hurt? And you talk about underselling but you write off 3 of the hardest hitters in the sport in Stevens, Jacombs and Lemieux? lol
Well none of this back and forth matters because youll see clearly on Sept 16th just how wrong you are.

Canelo was like 19 when he fought Cotto's brother dude, and the only blown up WW he's fought amongst his relevant fights was the fight against Khan. GGG did the same thing when he fought Brook. You undersell Canelo's power because he's fought a lot of defensive fighters like Trout, Lara, Floyd, whereas GGG has mostly fought guys like Macklin and Rubio, who are much easier to hit.


But I already said that I think GGG will win the fight, I just think you're underselling Canelo.

 

[MadDogRevival]

Boxing right now is on the upswing

What do you base this on?

 

[TheChamps990411]

What do you base this on?

The best fighters are fighting each other instead of talking about it and giving us fights we dont want. We started the year with Thurman/Garcia, Wlad/Joshua, Canelo/Chavez and coming up we`ve got Brook/Spence, Ward/Kovalev and of course Canelo/GGG which is going to make a killing in ppv sales. Hell, if it happens Floyd/Conor is going to be huge too. We`ve got boxing on the networks in prime time. No boxing is not where it used to be but all this is heading in the right direction.

 

[TheChamps990411]

But I already said that I think GGG will win the fight, I just think you're underselling Canelo.

I dont undersell Canelos power becuase of any of the fights you mentioned. I undersell his power because you over sell it. You claim that "Canelo is, by a wide margin, the best combination of punching power and chin that GGG will have faced." but you are wrong. Lemieux had only been stopped once in his career before fighting GGG and thats was by Marco Rubio who hits like a jack hammer and is one of those tough mexican fighters who hadnt been stopped in a decade until he fought GGG. There both easy to hit but so? Chavez was a punching bag for 12 rounds but Canelo couldnt finish him or even drop him. This is the same guy who got severely hurt and dropped against Fonfara who isnt a big puncher at all and whos kos have come against tomato cans. Both Lemieux and Rubio are better combinations of chin and power than Canelo. You made a statement and then try to make the discussion about how im underselling Canelos power which im not. Youre over selling it. We`ll see Sept 16th

 

[NielsisGood]

I dont undersell Canelos power becuase of any of the fights you mentioned. I undersell his power because you over sell it. You claim that "Canelo is, by a wide margin, the best combination of punching power and chin that GGG will have faced." but you are wrong. Lemieux had only been stopped once in his career before fighting GGG and thats was by Marco Rubio who hits like a jack hammer and is one of those tough mexican fighters who hadnt been stopped in a decade until he fought GGG. There both easy to hit but so? Chavez was a punching bag for 12 rounds but Canelo couldnt finish him or even drop him. This is the same guy who got severely hurt and dropped against Fonfara who isnt a big puncher at all and whos kos have come against tomato cans. Both Lemieux and Rubio are better combinations of chin and power than Canelo. You made a statement and then try to make the discussion about how im underselling Canelos power which im not. Youre over selling it. We`ll see Sept 16th

Lemieux has nowhere near the chin that Canelo does, and Rubio hits like a marshmellow compared to Canelo. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Also Canelo didn't finish Chavez because JCC has a ridiculously good chin. If you actually watched the fight you'd have seen how hard Canelo was hitting and how busted up JCC's face was.

 

[aceboon]

I dont undersell Canelos power becuase of any of the fights you mentioned. I undersell his power because you over sell it. You claim that "Canelo is, by a wide margin, the best combination of punching power and chin that GGG will have faced." but you are wrong. Lemieux had only been stopped once in his career before fighting GGG and thats was by Marco Rubio who hits like a jack hammer and is one of those tough mexican fighters who hadnt been stopped in a decade until he fought GGG. There both easy to hit but so? Chavez was a punching bag for 12 rounds but Canelo couldnt finish him or even drop him. This is the same guy who got severely hurt and dropped against Fonfara who isnt a big puncher at all and whos kos have come against tomato cans. Both Lemieux and Rubio are better combinations of chin and power than Canelo. You made a statement and then try to make the discussion about how im underselling Canelos power which im not. Youre over selling it. We`ll see Sept 16th

The Fonfara fight was at 175 lbs, not really fair to cite that fight to compare with Canelo's power when JCC was out of his depth fighting at LHW.