OT - Boxing, Decline, Cotto, Floyd, MMA

[21Huskies]

Please tell us why you're so much smarter than everybody else on this board.

i'm not smarter than everyone. but i am smart enough to know that if i'm not educated on a subject i shouldn't post about it.

 

[johnhuskies95]

i'm not smarter than everyone. but i am smart enough to know that if i'm not educated on a subject i shouldn't post about it.

Dude, people are expressing their opinions. They're allowed to have them. All too often you seem to attack people because they don't agree with what you're saying. For example, just because people don't think that Bo Ryan is an awesome coach doesn't mean that they are right or wrong. It's an opinion, and that's what people are arguing about.

 

[johnhuskies95]

I think he's criticizing the lack of knowledge on the two sports more than the opinions, because the lack of knowledge is quite astounding in this thread.

For example?

You guys keep mentioning that but this is a 5 page thread and most of the posts here are just people giving their opinions or two cents about an argument. People can disagree with each other.

 

[21Huskies]

without question people can disagree. we disagree on almost everything.

but when people start trying to tell others and educate others on a topic and they start throwing out names like Kimbo Slice as their evidence, someone needs to step in and just put an end to that.

Kimbo Slice is to MMA what Lil Romeo is to basketball. they played, but they really didn't play, if you get my point.

 

[AJC88]

For example?

You guys keep mentioning that but this is a 5 page thread and most of the posts here are just people giving their opinions or two cents about an argument. People can disagree with each other.

what 21Huskies said.

 

[johnhuskies95]

what 21Huskies said.

Alright, so that Kimbo Slice reference was a bad point. But what else? Because you said that the lack of knowledge in this thread was "astounding".

I don't think that one example means that all of the posts in the thread lack knowledge about the argument.

 

[Deepster]

I just can't get in to MMA. I much prefer boxing where it takes more patience and mental strength to win a fight. MMA fights just don't last very long.

Try watching it with someone who really knows MMA. I missed a ton until I did. It really is a lot more than you probably think. Even the "meaningless" kicks in the thigh can give enough advantage over a round where the guy can't move laterally to escape. He's being set up in advance and you probably missed it.

 

[Rondogg]

PayPerView killed boxing. I used to watch boxing all the time and I don't want to spend the $ to watch the big matches. I follow boxing and watch it on cable but anytime one of them gets good they either get on the undercard of a "big" fight or they ARE the "big" fight. Then I can only see them if I want to pay for Showtime or HBO. Then I never get to see them live again unless I want to pay $60. Then I forget who they are. Too bad, I used to love boxing. The made a couple of people incredibly wealthy but they destroyed the Sport.

I remember when the SuperBowl was discussed as a Pay Per View...

 

[21Huskies]

disclosure: i love boxing and i love MMA. i think its unfair people compare them so much, they are different sports.

some of the comments, since you asked for them
-- 15 minutes of fame is up (opinion clearly and fishy is entitled to it) but the sport is one of, if not the, fastest growing sport in the world.
-- guys referencing MMA to 'bar fights' (MMA fighters are trained in generally brazilian jiujitsu, striking/boxing, wrestling, muay thai, kickboxing, etc. this isn't Bubba fighting Jimbo who had too many bud heavies at the bar.
-- mma fighters aren't nearly the athletes that boxers are (not even worth commenting about)
-- minimum rules in MMA (simply not true)
-- fan base is trash and wanna be tough guys (ridiculous)

that was the first 2 pages, i'm too tired to keep looking.

i'm not saying there weren't some good, educated posts. but some people here seemed to think MMA is grabbing 2 guys off the street and putting them in a cage and seeing who comes out alive.

 

[AJC88]

Alright, so that Kimbo Slice reference was a bad point. But what else? Because you said that the lack of knowledge in this thread was "astounding".

I don't think that one example means that all of the posts in the thread lack knowledge about the argument.

Boxers are bad athletes, boxers are generally not athletic outside of the ring, the whole boxing vs mma in a street fight debate, mma fighters being criminals. That's just off the top of my head, I can go back and find some more if you'd like.

 

[GemParty]

wow, what a ridiculous post.

dude, Kimbo was thrown into the ring with tomato cans. complete bums. when he finally fought any even remotely average he was about as embarrassing as he could possibly be.

the lack of knowledge in this thread is borderline stunning other than 990411's post

My point on Kimbo, was a guy with only a punchers chance can win a fight. Most of this thread has successfully included good back & forth on a fun OT subject. If a thread is tiresome or annoys you, why particapate? Just can't help yourself. I've posted 6 times in this thread and I'm pro MMA. My comment related to, can someone with only a good punch beat an MMA guy. The answer in Kimbo's case was, Yes. Ask Houston Alexander (not a tomatoe can), who had previously knocked out vets Sakara & Jardine. Could Kimbo sustain the success. No. Coincidentally, now he's trying his hand as a boxer. That's what this whole thread is about.

 

[johnhuskies95]

disclosure: i love boxing and i love MMA. i think its unfair people compare them so much, they are different sports.

some of the comments, since you asked for them
-- 15 minutes of fame is up (opinion clearly and fishy is entitled to it) but the sport is one of, if not the, fastest growing sport in the world.
-- guys referencing MMA to 'bar fights' (MMA fighters are trained in generally brazilian jiujitsu, striking/boxing, wrestling, muay thai, kickboxing, etc. this isn't Bubba fighting Jimbo who had too many bud heavies at the bar.
-- mma fighters aren't nearly the athletes that boxers are (not even worth commenting about)
-- minimum rules in MMA (simply not true)
-- fan base is trash and wanna be tough guys (ridiculous)

that was the first 2 pages, i'm too tired to keep looking.

i'm not saying there weren't some good, educated posts. but some people here seemed to think MMA is grabbing 2 guys off the street and putting them in a cage and seeing who comes out alive.

Going point by point here.

Lacrosse has been the fastest growing US sport for a decade now. Does anybody really think it has any sort of long term staying power? When the sport has only been around for a few years, chances are it's going to grow.

The bar fight comment was talking about how MMA allows more than boxing which just allows punches thrown above the waist.

I agree that MMA fighters are just as athletic as boxers and maybe even more athletic in some cases.

Again, see what I said above. MMA has less rules than boxing in terms of what is allowed.

Have you ever gone to a bar and watched a UFC fight? The majority of the people there wear affliction clothing.

 

[21Huskies]

they put kimbo in the ring with guys who had absolutely no ground game. guys they knew would just stand up and throw with him. Kimbo and Houston Alexander are/were bad UFC fighters. anyone who follows MMA knows that Kimbo was never a real fighter. he was a chance to gain ratings thru mainstream fans that had heard of kimbo thru his youtube fame and had no idea about actual MMA fighting. they lined up bums against him... and yes, Houston Alexander was/is a one trick pony (striking) with no ground game. the reason they never put him in there with a guy with ground game was because they knew he'd never last more than a few minutes and it'd ruin his aura to the mainstream fans who didn't know what they were watching.

and this thread doesn't annoy me, at all. i think its wonderful since i'm a fan of both sports. i just think there are a lot of misinformed posts.

 

[21Huskies]

Going point by point here.

Lacrosse has been the fastest growing US sport for a decade now. Does anybody really think it has any sort of long term staying power? When the sport has only been around for a few years, chances are it's going to grow.

The bar fight comment was talking about how MMA allows more than boxing which just allows punches thrown above the waist.

I agree that MMA fighters are just as athletic as boxers and maybe even more athletic in some cases.

Again, see what I said above. MMA has less rules than boxing in terms of what is allowed.

Have you ever gone to a bar and watched a UFC fight? The majority of the people there wear affliction clothing.

now you're just trolling me... lacrosse? really?
- tell me the last time Lacrosse sold 500k-1 mil ppv's like UFC does consistently.
- UFC has been around since the early 90's... plenty of the arguments being used in this thread would have been applicable to early 90's UFC when it was basically chicken fighting, now the sport is FAR different.
- MMA as a whole has been around far longer.
- MMA has plenty of rules and is far more detailed and intricate than boxing is (and again, i'm a bigger boxing fan than MMA)
- and yes, there are certainly dumb/toughguy MMA fans. but its quite the generalization. the same tough guy fans show up to football games, hockey matches and boxing matches.

 

[johnhuskies95]

now you're just trolling me... lacrosse? really?
- tell me the last time Lacrosse sold 500k-1 mil ppv's like UFC does consistently.
- UFC has been around since the early 90's... plenty of the arguments being used in this thread would have been applicable to early 90's UFC when it was basically chicken fighting, now the sport is FAR different.
- MMA as a whole has been around far longer.
- MMA has plenty of rules and is far more detailed and intricate than boxing is (and again, i'm a bigger boxing fan than MMA)
- and yes, there are certainly dumb/toughguy MMA fans. but its quite the generalization. the same tough guy fans show up to football games, hockey matches and boxing matches.

I was arguing with the points you made in the post I quoted above. You backed up your reasoning for saying that MMA is the fastest growing sport in the world. I said that Lacrosse has been the fastest growing sport in the US for the last decade, hence why being the fastest growing sport anywhere doesn't really matter when it comes to sustained success.

Also, like it or not, a sport's ceiling in terms of popularity will always be based off of ESPN. If ESPN doesn't show it, the sport is severely limited in terms of its potential following.

Again, I was arguing with the points you made in your other post. Now your moving the goalposts. I was talking about why those other points in the thread were brought up. MMA allows far more than boxing does. I don't think that's really debatable.

 

[TheChamps990411]

the demise of boxing is being greatly exaggerated. boxings popularity goes hand in hand with the state of the heavyweight division. get an exciting dominant american heavyweight and boxing will be back in the public conscience big time. get two or three really good american heavyweights and boxing will be booming like it was at its peak of popularity.
mma while popular does not do the type of numbers ppv wise as does a mayweather or a pacman fight and lacks a household name. ask anyone who floyd,paciaou,hopkins or cotto are and people will know. ask people who anderson sylva,jose aldo,gsp,jds,frankie edgar or jon jones are and youll get some people wholl know but for the most part most people will have no idea.
people dont realize that there is a storm on the horizon as far as the ufc is concerned. fighters are not getting paid what they feel they should be paid but at this point there isnt much they can do as dana white and the furtita bros have a monopoly on the sport and while many wont go on record there are alot of fighters who are not happy. this cannot and will not last. a decade from now if the ufc still exists it wont be in its present form. i believe all it would take to destroy the ufc is for two big names to leave the organization,sign with promotors and set up a huge ppv fight that nets both fighters millions more than they would ever see in the ufc.the problem is these would have to be two fighters that the public would want to see fight and who have a large following which right now i dont see any fighters in the ufc with that type of notoriety. brock lesner was the closest thing to it but his career was derailed by illness and lack of striking. if he had gone on to dominate the hw division and fedor emilianenko had continue to dominate this could of been a mega fight that couldve drawn enough attention from the general public that both fighters could have made the fight without organizational support just like boxing and generated millions for the fighters and really hurt the ufc.

 

[Frank Ivy]

ask anyone who floyd,paciaou,hopkins or cotto are and people will know.

It's an interesting question. I'd put my money on the average American being able to name more MMA fighters than boxers. I never heard of cotto until a few days ago.
Fact is, there doesn't seem to be any readily available stats to compare boxing and mma.

 

[Excalibur]

It's an interesting question. I'd put my money on the average American being able to name more MMA fighters than boxers.

Not a chance.

 

[DrewDog85]

It's an interesting question. I'd put my money on the average American being able to name more MMA fighters than boxers. I never heard of cotto until a few days ago.
Fact is, there doesn't seem to be any readily available stats to compare boxing and mma.

FrankIvy,, Please do not take offense but if you've never heard of Cotto until a few days ago, then you really are not following boxing in even a casual sense.

 

[Frank Ivy]

FrankIvy,, Please do not take offense but if you've never heard of Cotto until a few days ago, then you really are not following boxing in even a casual sense.

That's true. Good point.

 

[Frank Ivy]

Not a chance.

Not even any? You wouldn't give it a 1% chance?
Run an experiment.
Start with women.

 

[Burnsbros23]

Early in this thread Frank you were a casual Boxing fan yet you dont know who Miguel Cotto is? Cotto PPV with Antonio Margarito did around 700,000 buys same as Bones Jones.

I would say most UFC fights do under 500,000 PPV buys, and Lesnar might be the only guy who has topped a million buys.

I feel as though UFC has a lost a little steam but maybe thats just me. The big thing for UFC is most adults 35-60 have no interest at all in UFC.

 

[Frank Ivy]

Early in this thread Frank you were a casual Boxing fan yet you dont know who Miguel Cotto is? Cotto PPV with Antonio Margarito did around 700,000 buys same as Bones Jones.

I would say most UFC fights do under 500,000 PPV buys, and Lesnar might be the only guy who has topped a million buys.

I feel as though UFC has a lost a little steam but maybe thats just me. The big thing for UFC is most adults 35-60 have no interest at all in UFC.

1st - On the first page I said I was a "very casual observer" of boxing. So, we're arguing semantics here.
2nd - You remind me of my wife. I acknowledged, just above, that "casual fan" didn't describe me. You, my wife, then drive it home, rather than just appreciating that I admitted something.
3 - MMA has only been sanctioned for 12 years. 12. Everybody should keep that in mind before making conclusions about where the sport is and where it's going.
4. - So Cotto Margarito did 700k buys? It's a single data point in a rainstorm. As I said earlier, there does not seem to be good data out there. I'd love to see it for both sports.
5. - Most adults 35 to 60 reflect the past, not the future. A lot of 55 year olds don't know how to convert a .doc into a .pdf, or scan an image into a jpeg, or access their email from a webpage. The 20-50ish demographic is the demographic that matters, as those are the active wage earners, for the most part.

Randy Couture, Rampage, these guys are in movies in significant rolls (and on King of Queens loved that scene).

How many boxers have that kind of pop exposure? None?

Anyway, I'd love to see some timelined PPV stats, if anybody has any.

 

[Burnsbros23]

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/ufc-ppv-buys-2012-a-1943995/.... Thats the best i could find. Most boxing fights aren't on ppv and Top rank one of the big boxing promoters doesnt release there ppv numbers.

 

[TheChamps990411]

"Randy Couture, Rampage, these guys are in movies in significant rolls (and on King of Queens loved that scene).

How many boxers have that kind of pop exposure? None?

Anyway, I'd love to see some timelined PPV stats, if anybody has any"

first, i loved that scene on koq and you cant forget dan henderson who was the guy who got hit and smiled who had no teeth,lol!

no boxer has that kind of pop exposure? manny pacioua does cell phone commercials and has fans all over the world. the guy is like a rockstar where ever he goes including the united states.
floyd mayweather has performed in the wwe! everyone knows who floyd mayweather is and hes done some commercials and the only reason hes not in every other commercial or billboard advertisements around the country is well because hes and a#$hole who makes rediculous monetary demands so some companies refuse to deal with him and lastly although well known he is one of the most disliked athletes of recent memory. outside of the black community floyds popularity is split down the middle at best imo of those who like or dislike him.
forget ppv numbers because boxing has far less ppv fights in a year than does the ufc because the ufc pretty much has an event just about every month. but if you were to compare the top ppv sales for a ufc event compared to a boxing event the boxing events easily have more sales. the only ppv ufc to go over a million was lesner/couture and that has actually has been debated with dana white claiming over a million but never actually releasing the numbers.