Ole Miss takes down Stanford (merged)

[TheFarmFan]

What Tara should’ve done this year was start Jones at the 4 and Brink at the 5 and surround them with a bunch of shooters, similar to what Indiana did this year. That setup would have allowed Jones and Brink to shine the most imo

You're describing our starting lineup through most of February and March, absent the shooters part. The problem is our better historical 3 pt shooters - 6'5" Prechtel (who's a stretch-4), 6'3" Demetre (wing-ish), and 6'2" Bosgana (shooting guard/wing) - are neither great passers nor great defenders for opposing guards. Unfortunately, none of Lepolo, Nivar or Emma-Nnopu are great outside shooters, so Tara chose defense and ball handling over outside offensive production.

I hate to say the quiet part out loud, but I gave up on serious hopes for a deep post-season run this season once I realized the limitations of our players after the shock U$C loss. This year was definitely not Tara's best season in terms of her x-and-o coaching, and I have increasing questions about her ability to develop players for the modern game. But I honestly don't think Geno, Dawn or Vic (three of the current D1 coaches I most admire) would have done much better with this group. We unfortunately just did not have the right set of skills in the right set of players, so every time Tara opted to prioritize one aspect we'd face a deficit in another.

C'est la vie. As if I didn't already, it did made me even more appreciative of the jack-of-all-trades pocket knife players we were luck to have for four seasons, also known as Lexie and Lacie Hull. It's not at all a coincidence to me that they won national championships at both the high school and college level.

 

[bovwa10]

You're describing our starting lineup through most of February and March, absent the shooters part. The problem is our better historical 3 pt shooters - 6'5" Prechtel (who's a stretch-4), 6'3" Demetre (wing-ish), and 6'2" Bosgana (shooting guard/wing) - are neither great passers nor great defenders for opposing guards. Unfortunately, none of Lepolo, Nivar or Emma-Nnopu are great outside shooters, so Tara chose defense and ball handling over outside offensive production.

I hate to say the quiet part out loud, but I gave up on serious hopes for a deep post-season run this season once I realized the limitations of our players after the shock U$C loss. This year was definitely not Tara's best season in terms of her x-and-o coaching, and I have increasing questions about her ability to develop players for the modern game. But I honestly don't think Geno, Dawn or Vic (three of the current D1 coaches I most admire) would have done much better with this group. We unfortunately just did not have the right set of skills in the right set of players, so every time Tara opted to prioritize one aspect we'd face a deficit in another.

C'est la vie. As if I didn't already, it did made me even more appreciative of the jack-of-all-trades pocket knife players we were luck to have for four seasons, also known as Lexie and Lacie Hull. It's not at all a coincidence to me that they won national championships at both the high school and college level.

I also think Stanford not being able to use the portal to fill holes on their roster is starting to become more of a problem for them. Several teams have used the portal very effectively to fill gaps in their roster construction in recent years and Stanford can’t really do that

 

[BRS24]

I also think Stanford not being able to use the portal to fill holes on their roster is starting to become more of a problem for them. Several teams have used the portal very effectively to fill gaps in their roster construction in recent years and Stanford can’t really do that

Did I read somewhere that Stanford won't take transfers after sophomore year?

 

[LwrcasefaN]

I have a partial fix. I think it is a complete waste of time for player to shoot two foul shots (or three) if they are fouled. Send them to the free-throw for one-shot worth two, or three if it was a three point attempt. (Obviously only worth one point in an and-one situation) While this only cuts out about 10 seconds, in a close game they may be both fouling, and the extra time for single-point shots can add over a minute to the game, which can be excruciating when the clock says is under a minute left in the game. I have floated this proposal before and there's a typical knee-jerk reaction but I haven't heard a cogent explanation why this should not be done.

If someone is fouled shooting a 3 pointer, how would it be fair allowing them to shoot a 3 pointer from the foul line? One is clearly an easier shot. Bringing back the one and one I can get behind.

 

[TheFarmFan]

Did I read somewhere that Stanford won't take transfers after sophomore year?

Yes, that's a university rule. But we can (and have) take grad transfers, though thus far only one each in men's and women's.

 

[nwhoopfan]

If someone is fouled shooting a 3 pointer, how would it be fair allowing them to shoot a 3 pointer from the foul line? One is clearly an easier shot. Bringing back the one and one I can get behind.

But that would further encourage fouling down the stretch, which lengthens games.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

But that would further encourage fouling down the stretch, which lengthens games.

Maybe I didn't understand the poster. I understood that if a player is fouled shooting a 3 (or 2) , then instead of taking 3 or 2 FTs...they take 1 worth 3 or 2 points. That's not fair. I agree 100% on the length of ends of games. I usually take a coffee or bathroom break. Length of the reviews is the biggest culprit. Two minute review max or the call on the floor stands is my 2 cents. The other culprit is that 30 second timeouts have morphed to 3 minutes! And a full timeout is a long weekend.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Maybe I didn't understand the poster. I understood that if a player is fouled shooting a 3 (or 2) , then instead of taking 3 or 2 FTs...they take 1 worth 3 or 2 points. That's not fair. I agree 100% on the length of ends of games. I usually take a coffee or bathroom break. Length of the reviews is the biggest culprit. Two minute review max or the call on the floor stands is my 2 cents. The other culprit is that 30 second timeouts have morphed to 3 minutes! And a full timeout is a long weekend.

Yeah, I'm not signing off on 1 FT being worth 2 or 3 points depending on where the foul was committed. I've continued to be a bit undecided on whether I like going immediately to 2 foul shots once you are in the bonus rather than 1 and 1.

Agreed about reviews, they've gotta speed those up/limit how long they take.

 

[jonson]

You're describing our starting lineup through most of February and March, absent the shooters part. The problem is our better historical 3 pt shooters - 6'5" Prechtel (who's a stretch-4), 6'3" Demetre (wing-ish), and 6'2" Bosgana (shooting guard/wing) - are neither great passers nor great defenders for opposing guards. Unfortunately, none of Lepolo, Nivar or Emma-Nnopu are great outside shooters, so Tara chose defense and ball handling over outside offensive production.

I hate to say the quiet part out loud, but I gave up on serious hopes for a deep post-season run this season once I realized the limitations of our players after the shock U$C loss. This year was definitely not Tara's best season in terms of her x-and-o coaching, and I have increasing questions about her ability to develop players for the modern game. But I honestly don't think Geno, Dawn or Vic (three of the current D1 coaches I most admire) would have done much better with this group. We unfortunately just did not have the right set of skills in the right set of players, so every time Tara opted to prioritize one aspect we'd face a deficit in another.

C'est la vie. As if I didn't already, it did made me even more appreciative of the jack-of-all-trades pocket knife players we were luck to have for four seasons, also known as Lexie and Lacie Hull. It's not at all a coincidence to me that they won national championships at both the high school and college level.

Couldn't agree more about the Hull sisters.

 

[Phil]

If someone is fouled shooting a 3 pointer, how would it be fair allowing them to shoot a 3 pointer from the foul line? One is clearly an easier shot. Bringing back the one and one I can get behind.

Dou you think the expected points are different if she takes three foul shots from the foul line? The answer is no, the expected points are almost identical, though it takes a lot more time to take the three shots.

One and one? I hate it.

I had forgotten how much until I decided to watch the UConn men and there was a one and one - I had totally forgotten that it still existed. Bad, bad idea.

 

[Phil]

Maybe I didn't understand the poster. I understood that if a player is fouled shooting a 3 (or 2) , then instead of taking 3 or 2 FTs...they take 1 worth 3 or 2 points. That's not fair. I agree 100% on the length of ends of games. I usually take a coffee or bathroom break.

Sorry, can you explain what you mean you you say it isn't fair? It's my impression that some people thank the expected points scored will be different, which would be unfair, if it was material. But it's not.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

Sorry, can you explain what you mean you you say it isn't fair? It's my impression that some people thank the expected points scored will be different, which would be unfair, if it was material. But it's not.

There are a lot of players who can't make 3 consecutive FTs. Why give them 3 points for a single FT?

 

[Phil]

There are a lot of players who can't make 3 consecutive FTs. Why give them 3 points for a single FT?

There is not a player in the nation who literally can't make three consecutive free throws, sans guessing what you mean is that some players are so poor at the free-throw line that the probability of hitting three consecutive shots is effectively zero. I'm not sure that's true but it's definitional. A 40% free-throw shooter is going to hit three in a row 6% of the time. That's low but not zero. And that's probably an extreme. While there might be the occasional player that it's free throws at that poor a rate, I doubt they are taking threes other than in desperation.

If they really are a 40% free-throw shooter, then they are more likely than not to miss the single shot for three points and get zero.

Mathematically (assuming independence which is likely to be close to accurate) the expected results were identical.

I suppose one could dream up an edge case, where a team is down by one in the closing seconds of the game, so taking three individual foul shots is highly likely to produce at least one point ensure that the game doesn't end. But why an earth would you be taking a three if you are down by one in closing seconds?

 

[LwrcasefaN]

There is not a player in the nation who literally can't make three consecutive free throws, sans guessing what you mean is that some players are so poor at the free-throw line that the probability of hitting three consecutive shots is effectively zero. I'm not sure that's true but it's definitional. A 40% free-throw shooter is going to hit three in a row 6% of the time. That's low but not zero. And that's probably an extreme. While there might be the occasional player that it's free throws at that poor a rate, I doubt they are taking threes other than in desperation.

If they really are a 40% free-throw shooter, then they are more likely than not to miss the single shot for three points and get zero.

Mathematically (assuming independence which is likely to be close to accurate) the expected results were identical.

I suppose one could dream up an edge case, where a team is down by one in the closing seconds of the game, so taking three individual foul shots is highly likely to produce at least one point ensure that the game doesn't end. But why an earth would you be taking a three if you are down by one in closing seconds?

It's not that complicated nor requires any in-depth analysis. The number of players (even poor FT shooters) that can make a single FT is a higher probability than making 3 FTs consecutively. If your priority is to speed up the end of games, then sure your suggestion works. The better 3-point shooters, with clean looks, make them around the high 30s or low 40s, right? So replacing that with a single FT where probably VERY few shoot 40% isn't fair.

As far as

But why an earth would you be taking a three if you are down by one in closing seconds?

because that's the shot the defense is more likely willing to allow you to take. And there are other potential variables such as time and where you are inbounding the ball. Ninety feet away and with a couple of seconds remaining would not even afford an attempt closer to the basket. That's just one scenario.

Would you cosign a suggestion to skip FT shooting and replace those shots with a free layup attempt right under the basket? Skip lining up players and rebounding misses and the ref handing the ball to the shooter. Make a layup and get a point. Miss it? The other team takes the ball and inbounds it. That would speed up the game too but is the degree of difficulty of a layup the same or even similar (for the average player) as a FT? No. That's what I mean by...not fair.

 

[visitingcock]

There is not a player in the nation who literally can't make three consecutive free throws, sans guessing what you mean is that some players are so poor at the free-throw line that the probability of hitting three consecutive shots is effectively zero. I'm not sure that's true but it's definitional. A 40% free-throw shooter is going to hit three in a row 6% of the time. That's low but not zero. And that's probably an extreme. While there might be the occasional player that it's free throws at that poor a rate, I doubt they are taking threes other than in desperation.

If they really are a 40% free-throw shooter, then they are more likely than not to miss the single shot for three points and get zero.

Mathematically (assuming independence which is likely to be close to accurate) the expected results were identical.

I suppose one could dream up an edge case, where a team is down by one in the closing seconds of the game, so taking three individual foul shots is highly likely to produce at least one point ensure that the game doesn't end. But why an earth would you be taking a three if you are down by one in closing seconds?

And 40% would be incredibly awful. Even Wilt and Shaq Shot 50%.​

​

10. Chuck Hayes​

1. Chuck Hayes (60.3% Career FT, 0.5-0.9 FTA per game, 232-385 career FT)

9. Kwame Brown​

1. Kwame Brown (57.5% Career FT, 1.7-2.9 FTA per game, 976-1,697 career FT)

8. Emeka Okafor​

7. Dwight Howard​

1. Dwight Howard (59.8% Career FT, 5.4-9.1 FTA per game, 3,085-5,155 career FT)

6. Andris Biedrins​

1. Andris Biedrins (51.1% Career FT, 0.9-1.8 FTA per game, 377-738 career FT)

5. Dennis Rodman​

1. Dennis Rodman (58.4% Career FT, 1.2-2.0 FTA per game, 1,069-1,832 career FT)

4. Shaquille O’Neal​

1. Shaquille O’Neal (52.7 % Career FT, 4.9-9.3 FTA per game, 5,935-11,252 career FT)

3. Chris Dudley​

1. Chris Dudley (45.8% Career FT, 0.8-1.7 FTA per game, 691-1,508 career FT)

2.BEN WALLACE (41.5% Career FT, 1.1-2.6 FTA per game, 1,093-2,632 career FT)
Statistically, Wallace is historically the worst free throw shooter in the NBA and his career hasn’t finished. His career is chalked full of lowlights like that rare “double air ball”, uncanny fluke shots, opposing players high-fiving him for a make because of rarity, shots completely air balled completely offline and perhaps rarest of all: making both. His shooting touch and accuracy were absolutely horrendous and his mechanics were subpar.
Nonetheless, Wallace was a rebounding and shot-blocking stud to be feared because of his tenacity, instincts and athleticism. The four time Defensive Player of the Year has even sent away more shots than he’s made from the free throw line in his career. Wallace is the last guy you want at the line to win the game in NBA history, but luckily for him it has rarely come down to that.

1. Wilt Chamberlain​

10 of 10

1. Wilt Chamberlain (51.1% Career FT, 5.8-11.4 FTA per game, 6,057-11,862 career FT)
   “The Stilt” holds a lot of records in NBA history that will probably never be broken, such as being the only center in history to lead the league in assists, averaging over 50 points for a season and scoring 100 points in a single game.
   However, 11,862 times in his NBA career he was at the free throw line and 5,805 times he came away unsuccessful. For those doing the math, that’s a staggering 5.55 points per game that was left on the board for him and his teams.
   Imagine if he averaged closer to 35 points per game for his career as opposed to the 30.1 he ended his career with.
   That season he averaged over 50 points he got to the free throw line over 17 times per game, yet made only 10 of his attempts. If he shoots close to a 70 percent mark for his career, then he averages nearly 2.15 points per game more.
   While he wasn’t statistically the worst, the scope of how consistently bad he was from the line and the scope of how many points were left off makes him the worst in my opinion by comparison.
   How many times in those NBA Finals where his team came up short to Bill Russell and the Celtics would those few points from the FT line have been a game changer and tilted the odds in his favor?
   We can’t say for sure, but for as dominant as he was as a player, it was only good enough to get him two titles compared to Russell’s 11.
   He admitted that he was a head case when it came to free throws and the rules of the game were even changed by the game of tag with opponents intentionally fouling him to exhaustion throughout the game.
   Watching old film of him shoot free throws (and unfortunately this is really all we have to go off of outside stats), it appears that he stands a couple feet behind the actual free throw line, shoots from one hand without his secondary to help balance, doesn’t extend his arm, doesn’t follow through, doesn’t square up and even though it's an All-Star game, doesn’t appear to focus, let alone care.
   We can’t say that this is how Chamberlain shot throughout his career and he did have some impressive free throw shooting performances and clutch makes, but the scope of how many points left off the board in his career is overwhelming.

The NBA's Top 10 All-Time Worst Free Throw Shooters

 

[LwrcasefaN]

And 40% would be incredibly awful. Even Wilt and Shaq Shot 50%.​

​

10. Chuck Hayes​

1. Chuck Hayes (60.3% Career FT, 0.5-0.9 FTA per game, 232-385 career FT)

9. Kwame Brown​

1. Kwame Brown (57.5% Career FT, 1.7-2.9 FTA per game, 976-1,697 career FT)

8. Emeka Okafor​

7. Dwight Howard​

1. Dwight Howard (59.8% Career FT, 5.4-9.1 FTA per game, 3,085-5,155 career FT)

6. Andris Biedrins​

1. Andris Biedrins (51.1% Career FT, 0.9-1.8 FTA per game, 377-738 career FT)

5. Dennis Rodman​

1. Dennis Rodman (58.4% Career FT, 1.2-2.0 FTA per game, 1,069-1,832 career FT)

4. Shaquille O’Neal​

1. Shaquille O’Neal (52.7 % Career FT, 4.9-9.3 FTA per game, 5,935-11,252 career FT)

3. Chris Dudley​

1. Chris Dudley (45.8% Career FT, 0.8-1.7 FTA per game, 691-1,508 career FT)

2.BEN WALLACE (41.5% Career FT, 1.1-2.6 FTA per game, 1,093-2,632 career FT)
Statistically, Wallace is historically the worst free throw shooter in the NBA and his career hasn’t finished. His career is chalked full of lowlights like that rare “double air ball”, uncanny fluke shots, opposing players high-fiving him for a make because of rarity, shots completely air balled completely offline and perhaps rarest of all: making both. His shooting touch and accuracy were absolutely horrendous and his mechanics were subpar.
Nonetheless, Wallace was a rebounding and shot-blocking stud to be feared because of his tenacity, instincts and athleticism. The four time Defensive Player of the Year has even sent away more shots than he’s made from the free throw line in his career. Wallace is the last guy you want at the line to win the game in NBA history, but luckily for him it has rarely come down to that.

1. Wilt Chamberlain​

10 of 10

1. Wilt Chamberlain (51.1% Career FT, 5.8-11.4 FTA per game, 6,057-11,862 career FT)
   “The Stilt” holds a lot of records in NBA history that will probably never be broken, such as being the only center in history to lead the league in assists, averaging over 50 points for a season and scoring 100 points in a single game.
   However, 11,862 times in his NBA career he was at the free throw line and 5,805 times he came away unsuccessful. For those doing the math, that’s a staggering 5.55 points per game that was left on the board for him and his teams.
   Imagine if he averaged closer to 35 points per game for his career as opposed to the 30.1 he ended his career with.
   That season he averaged over 50 points he got to the free throw line over 17 times per game, yet made only 10 of his attempts. If he shoots close to a 70 percent mark for his career, then he averages nearly 2.15 points per game more.
   While he wasn’t statistically the worst, the scope of how consistently bad he was from the line and the scope of how many points were left off makes him the worst in my opinion by comparison.
   How many times in those NBA Finals where his team came up short to Bill Russell and the Celtics would those few points from the FT line have been a game changer and tilted the odds in his favor?
   We can’t say for sure, but for as dominant as he was as a player, it was only good enough to get him two titles compared to Russell’s 11.
   He admitted that he was a head case when it came to free throws and the rules of the game were even changed by the game of tag with opponents intentionally fouling him to exhaustion throughout the game.
   Watching old film of him shoot free throws (and unfortunately this is really all we have to go off of outside stats), it appears that he stands a couple feet behind the actual free throw line, shoots from one hand without his secondary to help balance, doesn’t extend his arm, doesn’t follow through, doesn’t square up and even though it's an All-Star game, doesn’t appear to focus, let alone care.
   We can’t say that this is how Chamberlain shot throughout his career and he did have some impressive free throw shooting performances and clutch makes, but the scope of how many points left off the board in his career is overwhelming.

The NBA's Top 10 All-Time Worst Free Throw Shooters

In other words...everyone can't make 3 fts in a row.

 

[Phil]

In other words...everyone can't make 3 fts in a row.

Sorry, did I miss some sarcasm? Those stats back me up. The statement that some cannot make 3 in a row may be hyperbolically true, but not literally true.

You make a good point that there are legitimate game situation for taking a late three, but I still see no support for your claim that my proposal isn't fair.

I will meet you part-way, perhaps a three attempt when there's under 30 seconds left would result in three single point attempts at the teams option. That would make it exceedingly rare but cover the situation where a team is down by one, but takes a late three.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

Sorry, did I miss some sarcasm? Those stats back me up. The statement that some cannot make 3 in a row may be hyperbolically true, but not literally true.

You make a good point that there are legitimate game situation for taking a late three, but I still see no support for your claim that my proposal isn't fair.

I will meet you part-way, perhaps a three attempt when there's under 30 seconds left would result in three single point attempts at the teams option. That would make it exceedingly rare but cover the situation where a team is down by one, but takes a late three.

My point is even a SHAQ has a 50% chance of making ONE FT. Do you think he shoots 50% from 3 point range? I don't. Probably 5%.