Official 2016-17 rankings thread | Page 3 | The Boneyard

Official 2016-17 rankings thread

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Wow, let's slow down.

They are both great coaches. Probably the 2nd and 3rd best in the game, in whatever order. And they are very different coaches, in style, approach, and Xs and Os.

As a non-Baylor, non-ND fan, I'll play hypotheticals:

1. Baylor was in the Big East with UConn until 2012-2013. Are they better now? Worse? Do they have more wins? Less? More NCs? Less?

2. Notre Dame got Brittney Griner: do they win a 2nd NC? A 3rd?

In the UConn world of the last 20 years, they have both done a remarkable job.
 
vowelguy said:
5) Louisville
6) Texas
7) UConn
8) UCLA
9) So Carolina
10) Maryland
11) Tennessee
12) Miss St
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Regionals :)
BPort: NDame, UConn, Maryland
Lex: Oh St, Louis, Tenn
OKC: Bay, UCLA, SC
Stoc: Stan, Tex, Miss St
 
ivrytontusker said:
ND's inability to win #2 is very unusual. The losses to us in 2014 and 2015 are obvious easy to understand, and the loss to Baylor in 2012 was too. But the loss to Texas A&M in 2011, after beating us, in a game played in Indianapolis, makes me wonder about Muffet in 'big games.' That was a game ND definitely should have won. I guess I also assume that if you beat UConn you not only can but should beat anybody else.

Also, ND fans do not want to play UConn in the title game, given Geno's extraordinary record in title games. On the other hand, while Muffet is 0-2 against Geno in title games, she is (if I am counting correctly) 3-3 against him if all Final Four semifinal and final games are counted.
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nuyoika- - - IMHO ND 's 1 title is because UCONN gave it to them! So to me The Muffitt still has 0 titles!
1. Shea & Svet hurt/ if they were healthy their leadership stops UCONN collapse & UCONN 5 peats!
2. Geno's rant at 1/2 time
3. both above let UCONN collapse ND won
 
Orangutan said:
What I was specifically responding to is you taking issue with McGraw being considered the "second best" coach in the nation by "everyone". Not your specific respect level.

Do you have a better argument for why McGraw gets "#toomuchrespect" other than "she hasn't won a championship since in 2001"? Because that's a facile argument and it's pretty easy to see why most people reject it.

What gets me is that you are very obviously trying to portray the metric that makes Baylor look best as the only legitimate metric of success, but you pretend like you're somehow being objective.
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National titles are the measuring stick, in my book. You have to win some to be considered one of the best in the game. I doubt that she could have won a title with any of the NC teams not named UCONN since the 2001 title. She has certainly had the talent to win another one.

Player greatness is viewed in terms of championships, why not coaches? And coaches get a lot longer than 4 years to prove their greatness.
 
Orangutan said:
That's because they aren't short-sighted and notice that her teams made 5 straight final fours and 4 straight national championship games and have an insane (93.6, to be exact) winning percentage over the last 5 years.

Who has won besides Geno in the last 15 years? Mulkey 2x, Blair, and Frese. That's the whole list (of active coaches). Gee...I wonder what the Baylor fan's agenda is in making "championships within the last 15 years" the measuring stick. :rolleyes:

Only, few neutrals are going to go for Mulkey over McGraw when Baylor's tourney results since that 2012 NC are - S16, E8 (lost to ND), E8 (lost to ND), and E8. Compared to ND over the same span - F4, runner-up, runner-up, S16
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For the record, I never said that Mulkey is a better coach than McGraw. I actually don't think she is. I just don't think McGraw is the second best coach in WCBB. Hell, I would take Harry Perretta over her.

McGraw has just had too much talent not to have won another title, which disqualifies her as the second-best coach in WCBB, IMO.
 
easttexastrash said:
For the record, I never said that Mulkey is a better coach than McGraw. I actually don't think she is. I just don't think McGraw is the second best coach in WCBB. Hell, I would take Harry Perretta over her.
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What the heck has Harry Perretta ever won? I thought national championships were the measuring stick.
 
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Orangutan said:
What the heck has Harry Perretta ever won? I thought national championships were the measuring stick.
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He has not had nearly the talent McGraw has. I consider him to be one of the best Xs and Os coaches in WCBB.

Sorry that I don't have more respect for your coach's abilities. Don't take it personally. I simply consider her overrated as a great basketball mind.
 
easttexastrash said:
He has not had nearly the talent McGraw has. I consider him to be one of the best Xs and Os coaches in WCBB.

Sorry that I don't have more respect for your coach's abilities. Don't take it personally.
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And recruiting isn't part of coaching? Villanova is a national player on the men's side, so why can't he get better talent to come there?

It's fine that you don't like McGraw - I just think your arguments are weak and it's fun to keep poking holes in them.
 
Here's my take on a top 10. I feel strongly about ND and Baylor at the top and not so strongly about the teams that follow. I keep thinking I have UConn too high at #3 but I can't settle on another team or two I'd rank above them at this time.

UConn will be the only team with players who have won at least one national championship. Unfortunately, only one of those players -- Nurse -- played a big role in winning multiple (2) championships; Williams, Collier and Samuelson (through 1st half of semis) played smaller roles in one championship. Still, the experience of seeing and living what it takes to win a championship shouldn't be discounted.

If, as expected, a team other than UConn win the championship, it will be the first one for the players on that team. It may be that group of players first final four. This leads to the biggest unknown in all of this: which players will play well at the biggest moment on the biggest stage? This is why I favor ND over Baylor and why I think UConn will still be in the mix. Only ND and UConn have players who have played for the national championship.

Here goes for now. My reasons why a particular team will or won't win the championship are not necessarily in order of importance.

1) Notre Dame

It's time for ND to win a championship. The Domers had two golden opportunities to win it all in 2011 and 2013 and let those opportunities slip through their tense fingers. The talent is there; Muffet needs to figure out how to get her team to play with confidence and poise on the big stage.

Why ND will win it all -- 1) The play and experience of Allen and Turner. Their two-player game is terrific. 2) Mabrey and Ogunbowale have shown they can make shots. 3) Westbeld is a terrific glue player who can make shots, pass well and grab some rebounds. 4) Young and Boley should help off the bench. 5) Turner as a rim protector can make up for ND's defensive deficiencies.

Why ND won't win it all -- 1) Defense. Stanford exposed ND defensively, finding holes in ND's zone. I'm not sure next season's team will be much better defensively, though I'm sure that will be a point of emphasis in the off season. 2) Turner's lack of versatility on offense. Although Turner's shoulder surgery is a good thing insofar as it should eliminate the risk of another in-season injury, the rehabilitation period will not allow Turner to work on her face-up game. She really needs to develop that part of her game to make herself harder to guard and not be so dependent on her teammates getting her the ball in the right spot. Erica McCall, a big who has made tremendous strides in her face-up game, outplayed Turner in the S16 game and I never thought I'd say that. 3) The sophomores. Ogunbowale and to a lesser extent Mabrey need to learn how to play with others. 4) Nerves. It's been an issue for ND teams in previous Final Fours.

2) Baylor.

Why Baylor will win it all -- 1) Alexis Jone is a dynamic scorer who has shown she can carry a team. 2) Baylor's size in the post. 3) Baylor plays terrific defense.

Why Baylor won't win it all -- 1) Niya Johnson graduates. I'm not sure who will replace Niya but I can't imagine any new starter at the point will run Baylor's offense as well as Johnson did. If the new point can shoot from the perimeter that will be a big improvement and help Baylor's offense. Alexis Jones can play point but her first instinct is to score, not run the offense. Plus, she turns the ball over too much. 2) Floor spacing. Baylor's big post players are easier to defend if the perimeter players are not taking and making 3s. Baylor shot 1-5 on three-pointers in the loss to Oregon State. Moving Davis to the wing (and playing Cox at the 4) only exacerbates the spacing problem as Davis is most comfortable around the rim. Oregon State held Baylor to 57 points because Baylor wasn't able to spread Oregon State out defensively.

3) UConn

Why UConn will win it all -- 1) Geno. 2) At least a few players have the experience of making it to a final four and
winning a championship. 3) Nurse, Samuelson, Collier and Williams are a core group of versatile players who can score in a variety of ways. Nurse and Samuelson and Collier look like big-time players who are unafraid of the big moments on the big stage. 3) Gabby Williams plays with confidence and doesn't let adversity shake that confidence. Geno has said she'll be the key to next season. 4) Dangerfield plays beyond her years. 5) Butler figures out what she needs to do: not foul, set screens, rebound, block shots and make open shots.

Why UConn won't win it all -- 1) Inexperience at the point. Teams with freshman point guards don't win championships. Nurse can play the point but I think she and the team are better if she doesn't. 2) Lack of solid post play. Before last season I didn't think Butler would start or even play as much as many here because a lineup that included Stewart, Tuck and Butler would have produced poor floor-spacing offensively and create terrible match-ups on defense. With Stewart and Tuck gone, Butler will need to play and she has a lot of work to do. I think she'll have difficulty staying on the floor (fouls) against teams with good post players. 3) Samuelson, Collier and Williams will be asked to produce more than they had to last season when they deferred to the Big 3 of Stewart, Tuck and Jefferson . It will be too much to ask.

4) Ohio State

Why Ohio State will win it all -- 1) Mitchell makes a lot of the many shots she'll take. 2) Talent up and down the roster.

Why Ohio State won't win it all -- 1) McGuff. 2) Chemistry. The game is played with only one ball and when Ohio State is on offense that ball belongs to Mitchell. The other good players (Hart, Cooper, Harper, Mavunga, Calhoun) may not be willing to accept how many shots Mitchell will take and how little they get to touch the ball. 3) Mitchell misses a lot of the many shots she will take.

5) Texas

Why Texas will win it all -- 1) Trio of McCarty, Atkins and Higgs. 2) Joyner Holmes plays beyond her years.

Why Texas won't win it all -- 1) Too few championship caliber players. 2) No replacement for Boyette. 3) Holmes too young to lead team to championship.

6) Stanford

Why Stanford will win it all -- 1) Tara. 2) All key players return, including a much improved Erica McCall.

Why Stanford won't win it all -- 1) Defense. Stanford will need to outscore opponents. 2) Inconsistent guard play.

7) South Carolina

Why South Carolina will win it all -- 1) Post tandem of Wilson and Coates. Aja Wilson had a terrific sophomore season and should get better. Alaina Coates should also continue to improve. 2) I can't come up with a 2nd reason so I'll go with Alisha Gray since I like her game. She'll be every bit as good as Mitchell was as a senior.

Why South Carolina won't win it all -- 1) Point guard. Cuevas. Freshman Harris may be good (I have no idea) but she isn't going to step in as a freshman and lead the team to a championship. South Carolina's best players are dependent on others getting them the ball. 2) Lack of perimeter shooting other than Gray. Against Syracuse Wilson and Coates combined for 33 points and 26 rebounds and South Carolina still found a way to lose. 3) Kaela Davis. I'm not a fan. During her first 2 years at Georgia Tech she took too many shots, made too few of those too many shots, turned the ball over a lot and fouled too much. I don't believe she's a championship-caliber player.

8) Louisville

Why Louisville will win it all -- 1) Hines continue her growth as a player. 2) Mariya Moore decides to play hard on both ends. 3) Asia Durr proves to be as good as predicted. 4) Someone gives Louisville a solid post presence.

Why Louisville won't win it all -- 1) No team with Briahanna Jackson in the back court will win a championship. 2) Mariya Moore decides not to play hard on both ends. 3) Post play. Charley Creme mentions Cierra Johnson. She may have a nice career at Louisville but I don't see her as a difference maker in the post next season. 4) Poor defense.

9) Maryland

Why Maryland will win it all -- Brionna Jones and Shatori-Kimbrough are an excellent inside-outside tandem.

Why Maryland won't win it all -- Lack of an experienced point guard.

10) UCLA

Why UCLA will win it all -- 1) Jordin Canada is a tremendous point guard. 2) Monique Billings.

Why UCLA won't win it all -- 1) With Fields gone there is no third scorer (guard/wing) to complement Canada and Billings.
 
easttexastrash said:
National titles are the measuring stick, in my book. You have to win some to be considered one of the best in the game. I doubt that she could have won a title with any of the NC teams not named UCONN since the 2001 title. She has certainly had the talent to win another one.

Player greatness is viewed in terms of championships, why not coaches? And coaches get a lot longer than 4 years to prove their greatness.
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Among active coaches, those who have won national championships:

VanDerveer - 2x, most recently 1992
Hatchell - 1994
Auriemma - 11x, most recently 2016
McGraw - 2001
Mulkey - 2x, most recently 2012
Frese - 2006
Blair - 2011

"You have to win some to be considered one of the best in the game" If we accept that, unless I'm missing someone, only 7 current coaches have won one. So Muffet is one of the best 7 coaches in the game, right? And only 3 active coaches have won multiple NCs. But Vanderveer's happened quite a while ago, before UConn became a major player.

So besides Geno you have basically just Mulkey that's done any better than McGraw in the 21st century - and I'm of the opinion that if Griner had been from South Bend and Diggins had been from Houston instead of the opposite, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I think Mulkey actually underachieved in only getting one with Griner.
 
What_s_going_on_in_this_thread_nope_nevermind_3.png
 
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vowelguy said:
I have no dog in this fight and they're both really good, but ...

You do realize that your coach got just one title during Griner's tenure?
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I am making not argument for Mulkey being a better coach than McGraw...I said so in another post.
 
Orangutan said:
I think Mulkey actually underachieved in only getting one with Griner.
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You get no argument from me there and, once again, I am not arguing that Mulkey is a better coach than McGraw, but I certainly don't think that McGraw is any better than any other coach on the list of one or two time winners of a NC. However, if she wins another one or two...or more, then I will be so inclined to put her higher on my list.

I think that most UCONN fans think she is a better coach just because she had UCONN's number there for a while.
 
There sure is A LOT of talent spread out next year. What will be fascinating is how the two very high profile transfers each for OSU and USC work out. If they can find team chemistry, I'd pick both in my final four, and wouldn't be shocked with either of them winning a championship. If they don't, they could look like UT looked like for most of the year.
 
easttexastrash said:
You get no argument from me there and, once again, I am not arguing that Mulkey is a better coach than McGraw, but I certainly don't think that McGraw is any better than any other coach on the list of one or two time winners of a NC. However, if she wins another one or two...or more, then I will be so inclined to put her higher on my list.

I think that most UCONN fans think she is a better coach just because she had UCONN's number there for a while.
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Hasn't she also had everyone else's number BUT UCONN's for a while now with her 96+% winning last 4 years?
 
vowelguy said:
Regionals :)
BPort: NDame, UConn, Maryland
Lex: Oh St, Louis, Tenn
OKC: Bay, UCLA, SC
Stoc: Stan, Tex, Miss St
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Why would Notre Dame travel to Bridgeport if you have them as a higher seed than tOSU? Lexington is 5 hours away from South Bend while Bridgeport is 12 hours.
 
easttexastrash said:
He has not had nearly the talent McGraw has. I consider him to be one of the best Xs and Os coaches in WCBB.

Sorry that I don't have more respect for your coach's abilities. Don't take it personally. I simply consider her overrated as a great basketball mind.
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You can take Perretta, I'll take Doug Bruno or Jim Jabir, though I like Muffet. And yes, I think Mulkey is a great recruiter, but overrated as a coach.
 
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easttexastrash said:
You get no argument from me there and, once again, I am not arguing that Mulkey is a better coach than McGraw, but I certainly don't think that McGraw is any better than any other coach on the list of one or two time winners of a NC. However, if she wins another one or two...or more, then I will be so inclined to put her higher on my list.

I think that most UCONN fans think she is a better coach just because she had UCONN's number there for a while.
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So who is higher than McGraw if not Mulkey? What coaches are between Geno and McGraw on a list of best active coaches? I might give Tara, but that's about it.
 
And also, let's be clear, when we talk about "best coach", we mean the sum total of recruiting, motivation/etc, and in-game Xs and Os.
 
easttexastrash said:
Maybe Muffet needs to become a better coach and she can win championship number 2. Everyone likes to put her as the "second best" coach in the nation yet she hasn't won a championship in the past 15 years. #toomuchrespect
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And only one her one and only championship because of injuries to UConn. Let's remember that!
 
mudcat said:
Soooo, get involved, voice an opinion. I'm pretty sure you're not gonna be pushing Coach P.;)
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Off the top of my head

1) Notre Dame
2) Baylor
3) South Carolina
4) UCONN
5) Ohio State
6) Stanford
7) Louisville
8) Maryland
9) Texas
10) Miss State
 
Fairfield Fan said:
And only one her one and only championship because of injuries to UConn. Let's remember that!
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I'm not so sure about that.
UCONN was injury free when earlier in the season the team went into South Bend and lost handily. I am always skeptical when I hear that the game was determined by a player that didn't play.
Natalie Achonwa in 2014 ? Do we really want to rehash this?
 
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JordyG said:
You can take Perretta, I'll take Doug Bruno or Jim Jabir, though I like Muffet. And yes, I think Mulkey is a great recruiter, but overrated as a coach.
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She actually hasn't been a great recruiter until recently, really. She had Griner and Sims but other than that she has not had a top rated player until Cox came along. Had Jones not transferred to Baylor Mulkey would not have had one top 10 player on the roster other than Kalani Brown, who was ranked number 10.
 
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