Notre Dame 2023-24 Season (merged)

[DallasDomer]

Dillon, I’m interested in what you thought of the refs in the UVA/ND game on Thursday. It was an ugly game (I was there), but the refs seemed to be very inconsistent. I think ND had over 40 foul shots, seemingly missing multiple ND fouls. But I’m biased. Would appreciate your thoughts.
BTW, Citron was easily the best player on the floor. HH was good, but didn’t overly impress me.

I'm not Dillon77 but have never been slow to blurt my opinion, I was not there but watched the game. Looking at team stats ND averages 16.6 FPG, 131st. Virginia averages 19.4 FPG, 306th, so I'd expect more fouls from UVA. In the game ND fouled 21 times to UVA 35. UVA was pressing for a lot of the second half which can generate turnovers and fouls. Then there is the normal end of the game fouls by the team that's behind to try to catch up.

Does that make 21 & 35 correct? It certainly closes the gap. UVA made some hand check fouls as your coach said in the post game interview. It also seemed UVA got upset fever and couldn't believe they fouled even when they did. (An example is when Citron was undercut and had to sit out McGhee gave the refs an unbelieving stare for a foul they had to call.)

I think there were fouls missed on both sides but the press, the end of the 4th quarter fouling, and the difference in averages make up for most if not all of the difference. But as you said I'm biased.

 

[Dillon77]

Dillon, I’m interested in what you thought of the refs in the UVA/ND game on Thursday. It was an ugly game (I was there), but the refs seemed to be very inconsistent. I think ND had over 40 foul shots, seemingly missing multiple ND fouls. But I’m biased. Would appreciate your thoughts.
BTW, Citron was easily the best player on the floor. HH was good, but didn’t overly impress me.

I'm going to include @DallasDomer since he joined the exchange and brought up some statistics and observations that certainly ran through my mind.

Exec. Summary:
Thought the Irish's 26 points off turnovers and fast breaks is what gave the Irish the cushion that allowed them to win the game. Points off foul shots sealed it.

To your point: First, I stumbled on "Nothing But Net" right after the game and heard input from that panel on the game and then I (re)watched the 2nd half on Thursday morning; in part, to see how different the third and fourth quarters were played.

Overall points:

• Kelly Gramlich prefaced her comments by saying UVA plays a very physical brand of ball. Some of this comes from having natural forwards like Taylor and Landon Clarkson playing in the middle against bigger lineups. And the UVA announcers pointed out that Camryn Taylor knows only how to play at one speed. These situations/way of playing ran into a referee crew that was going to call the physical fouls.
• Taylor has played like this since she was at Marquette and has not altered the style. ND's plan was to get her in foul trouble and she obliged. In ND's in-game thread, I brought up that Clarkson plays like a center defender in lacrosse: you go near the crease (paint in hoops) and you're going to know it. A few of her fouls were subjective, but she also creamed a few people.
• Hand checks were being called on both teams (Hidalgo was called of an offensive ward-off that I thought was ok because she didn't extend the arm, but I thought Clark was called for one that was dubious.).
• As @DallasDomer said, the refs had to call the contact by McGhee on Citron. At that point, UVA had to pressure and I think McGhee and Clark were flying all over the place trying to get the ball back.

Effect on Teams

• Taylor and Clarkson fouled out. McGhee and Clark had 4 each. Yet UVA's best defender to my mind, Kymora Johnson, "only" had three but was very effective. (Used her feet...she Citron, Sonia.)
• BTW, Westbeld, Watson and Hidalgo all had 4 fouls and UVA got to shoot a bunch of fouls, too. That's good: the 'Hoo's are very good foul shooters.
• In her post-game comments, Ivey saw what was going on and got the ball to her two most dependable ball handlers ...and foul shooters. Hidalgo is a very good volume FT shooter, but Citron will single-handedly destroy a team: 12-12.

In my mind, UVA got hot from outside in the fourth, hitting mid-range jumpers (Johnson) and long-range bombs (McGhee, Clark), which forced ND out of the zone and -- importantly -- allowed UVA to smack pressure on the inbounds pass, rather than seeing Hidalgo, Citron and Anna DeWolfe sprint the other way off a rebound.

Personnel Points

• I like Johnson. ND was interested in her a lot, but she went to UVA. Got a good one.
• McGhee is a big-bodied wing who can shoot. Coach her up and you've got a player. Clark can be a catalyst.
• Citron is getting back to "Citrionics," as a few Benchers call her all-round game. She is superb at driving and drawing fouls...as UVA found out.
• Hidalgo was not as effective as normal (credit to Johnson and help), but she still had 6 steals and 9 assists in addition to the 23 points.

 

[visitingcock]

Syracuse is a tough place to play for a variety or reasons, but most players/coaches cite the fact that you're shooting in a multi-purpose stadium and there's a lot of air (space) there. Depth perception difficulty?

As for refs, I hear you . When I learned the sport of soccer, I took courses and got my licenses in both coaching and...reffing. I only reffed when our town leagues were short, but the reasons I took it was to learn the game and realize what a ref goes through (and what calls may/may not matter in the end game). It helped me focus (a bit) on the things I might control. Of course, we had not replay options, so a lot of ref-interaction was to "advise" what to look for....

I had not considered Syracuse as a tough venue to play in because it’s not a venue we visit much. But” air and space” is a real thing. Ask shooters about Vanderbilt’s “end zones.”

 

[LwrcasefaN]

I had not considered Syracuse as a tough venue to play in because it’s not a venue we visit much. But” air and space” is a real thing. Ask shooters about Vanderbilt’s “end zones.”

I've played some pickup in the old dome quite a few times. Yea...it takes some adjusting. I imagine it's a bigger adjustment when the crowd is mostly orange and so is the rim. Women don't draw large crowds like the men so it should be somewhat easier. Still not easy. I personally never had to adjust to anything. I was a solid and consistent 25% shooter in any venue.

 

[DallasDomer]

I had not considered Syracuse as a tough venue to play in because it’s not a venue we visit much. But” air and space” is a real thing. Ask shooters about Vanderbilt’s “end zones.”

Long ago my daughters team went to the playoffs in Texas only because they shot close 50% which is great for a high school team. They went to the Alamo Dome which is a football venue with a basketball court stuck in it. They shot under 20% and lost by one. The other team couldn't hit either. So I completely agree about air space.

 

[DallasDomer]

I'm going to include @DallasDomer since he joined the exchange and brought up some statistics and observations that certainly ran through my mind.

Exec. Summary:
Thought the Irish's 26 points off turnovers and fast breaks is what gave the Irish the cushion that allowed them to win the game. Points off foul shots sealed it.

To your point: First, I stumbled on "Nothing But Net" right after the game and heard input from that panel on the game and then I (re)watched the 2nd half on Thursday morning; in part, to see how different the third and fourth quarters were played.

Overall points:

• Kelly Gramlich prefaced her comments by saying UVA plays a very physical brand of ball. Some of this comes from having natural forwards like Taylor and Landon Clarkson playing in the middle against bigger lineups. And the UVA announcers pointed out that Camryn Taylor knows only how to play at one speed. These situations/way of playing ran into a referee crew that was going to call the physical fouls.
• Taylor has played like this since she was at Marquette and has not altered the style. ND's plan was to get her in foul trouble and she obliged. In ND's in-game thread, I brought up that Clarkson plays like a center defender in lacrosse: you go near the crease (paint in hoops) and you're going to know it. A few of her fouls were subjective, but she also creamed a few people.
• Hand checks were being called on both teams (Hidalgo was called of an offensive ward-off that I thought was ok because she didn't extend the arm, but I thought Clark was called for one that was dubious.).
• As @DallasDomer said, the refs had to call the contact by McGhee on Citron. At that point, UVA had to pressure and I think McGhee and Clark were flying all over the place trying to get the ball back.

Effect on Teams

• Taylor and Clarkson fouled out. McGhee and Clark had 4 each. Yet UVA's best defender to my mind, Kymora Johnson, "only" had three but was very effective. (Used her feet...she Citron, Sonia.)
• BTW, Westbeld, Watson and Hidalgo all had 4 fouls and UVA got to shoot a bunch of fouls, too. That's good: the 'Hoo's are very good foul shooters.
• In her post-game comments, Ivey saw what was going on and got the ball to her two most dependable ball handlers ...and foul shooters. Hidalgo is a very good volume FT shooter, but Citron will single-handedly destroy a team: 12-12.

In my mind, UVA got hot from outside in the fourth, hitting mid-range jumpers (Johnson) and long-range bombs (McGhee, Clark), which forced ND out of the zone and -- importantly -- allowed UVA to smack pressure on the inbounds pass, rather than seeing Hidalgo, Citron and Anna DeWolfe sprint the other way off a rebound.

Personnel Points

• I like Johnson. ND was interested in her a lot, but she went to UVA. Got a good one.
• McGhee is a big-bodied wing who can shoot. Coach her up and you've got a player. Clark can be a catalyst.
• Citron is getting back to "Citrionics," as a few Benchers call her all-round game. She is superb at driving and drawing fouls...as UVA found out.
• Hidalgo was not as effective as normal (credit to Johnson and help), but she still had 6 steals and 9 assists in addition to the 23 points.

I keep researching the first quarter (without announcers) and with 2:08 remaining Brunelle just wipes Citron out with a forearm. I'm wondering if there's bad blood between them? I assume Sam left because of the coaching change but I can't remember. Do you recall? (And that's one clear extra foul for UVA.)

 

[Dillon77]

Hannah Hidalgo Connected with Soni(a) Citron on Two of These Back Door Cuts against Wake and hope to see more of it as the season progresses. They're increasingly getting back in synch after Citron missed a mess of games with a knee sprain.

 

[CL82]

I had not considered Syracuse as a tough venue to play in because it’s not a venue we visit much. But” air and space” is a real thing. Ask shooters about Vanderbilt’s “end zones.”

That is an underappreciated contributor to Coach Boeheim's success using the 2-3 zone. Yeah, no doubt about it, it was an active zone filled with athletic players who were well suited to it, but the difficulty of opposing teams ability to shoot deep against it was no doubt enhanced by the fact that the (then) Carrier Dome is a tough building for shooters.

 

[CL82]

Hannah Hidalgo Connected with Soni(a) Citron on Two of These Back Door Cuts against Wake and hope to see more of it as the season progresses. They're increasingly getting back in synch after Citron missed a mess of games with a knee sprain.

 

[VA Huskie]

I'm going to include @DallasDomer since he joined the exchange and brought up some statistics and observations that certainly ran through my mind.

Exec. Summary:
Thought the Irish's 26 points off turnovers and fast breaks is what gave the Irish the cushion that allowed them to win the game. Points off foul shots sealed it.

To your point: First, I stumbled on "Nothing But Net" right after the game and heard input from that panel on the game and then I (re)watched the 2nd half on Thursday morning; in part, to see how different the third and fourth quarters were played.

Overall points:

• Kelly Gramlich prefaced her comments by saying UVA plays a very physical brand of ball. Some of this comes from having natural forwards like Taylor and Landon Clarkson playing in the middle against bigger lineups. And the UVA announcers pointed out that Camryn Taylor knows only how to play at one speed. These situations/way of playing ran into a referee crew that was going to call the physical fouls.
• Taylor has played like this since she was at Marquette and has not altered the style. ND's plan was to get her in foul trouble and she obliged. In ND's in-game thread, I brought up that Clarkson plays like a center defender in lacrosse: you go near the crease (paint in hoops) and you're going to know it. A few of her fouls were subjective, but she also creamed a few people.
• Hand checks were being called on both teams (Hidalgo was called of an offensive ward-off that I thought was ok because she didn't extend the arm, but I thought Clark was called for one that was dubious.).
• As @DallasDomer said, the refs had to call the contact by McGhee on Citron. At that point, UVA had to pressure and I think McGhee and Clark were flying all over the place trying to get the ball back.

Effect on Teams

• Taylor and Clarkson fouled out. McGhee and Clark had 4 each. Yet UVA's best defender to my mind, Kymora Johnson, "only" had three but was very effective. (Used her feet...she Citron, Sonia.)
• BTW, Westbeld, Watson and Hidalgo all had 4 fouls and UVA got to shoot a bunch of fouls, too. That's good: the 'Hoo's are very good foul shooters.
• In her post-game comments, Ivey saw what was going on and got the ball to her two most dependable ball handlers ...and foul shooters. Hidalgo is a very good volume FT shooter, but Citron will single-handedly destroy a team: 12-12.

In my mind, UVA got hot from outside in the fourth, hitting mid-range jumpers (Johnson) and long-range bombs (McGhee, Clark), which forced ND out of the zone and -- importantly -- allowed UVA to smack pressure on the inbounds pass, rather than seeing Hidalgo, Citron and Anna DeWolfe sprint the other way off a rebound.

Personnel Points

• I like Johnson. ND was interested in her a lot, but she went to UVA. Got a good one.
• McGhee is a big-bodied wing who can shoot. Coach her up and you've got a player. Clark can be a catalyst.
• Citron is getting back to "Citrionics," as a few Benchers call her all-round game. She is superb at driving and drawing fouls...as UVA found out.
• Hidalgo was not as effective as normal (credit to Johnson and help), but she still had 6 steals and 9 assists in addition to the 23 points.

Thanks for your insights and thorough analysis Dillon. UVA’s been frustrating to watch this year. It’s clear that they have much more talent than in recent years, but ACC victories have been hard to come by (I missed the FSU defeat, while away at the service for a friend’s son). The frenetic pace that UVA plays at is a plus/minus situation. I think that when the game slows down for the new kids we’ll start showing real improvement. I’m hoping that’s what happened against FSU.

 

[VA Huskie]

I keep researching the first quarter (without announcers) and with 2:08 remaining Brunelle just wipes Citron out with a forearm. I'm wondering if there's bad blood between them? I assume Sam left because of the coaching change but I can't remember. Do you recall? (And that's one clear extra foul for UVA.)

I wouldn’t know about any bad blood. What I do know is that Sam isn’t the player she was her 1st 2 years in college. I’m guessing it’s due to her various injuries, but she just has no speed or quickness. I realize she was never fast, but she seems almost plodding to me. It’s kinda sad, particularly for a “hometown” kid.

 

[Dillon77]

I keep researching the first quarter (without announcers) and with 2:08 remaining Brunelle just wipes Citron out with a forearm. I'm wondering if there's bad blood between them? I assume Sam left because of the coaching change but I can't remember. Do you recall? (And that's one clear extra foul for UVA.)

I'll include @VA Huskie on this, too.

I was aware of that play, but think it was just Sam playing hard/inadvertently clobbering Sonia Citron. No one that I know of dislikes Soni and highly doubt Sam harbored any ill feelings toward her, as well.

Citron and Brunelle only overlapped in 2021-22, which was Soni's first year and Brunelle's third and final at ND.
Brunelle played one year for Muffet McGraw and two for Niele Ivey. It was Niele Ivey who took Brunelle from the starting lineup and had her come off the bench as a frontcourt reserve for whatever position was necessary. The player that forced that decision was Maddy Westbeld and I, for one, could say that Ivey made the right choice.

Citron replaced Anaya Peoples in the starting lineup eight or nine games into her freshman year and Peoples became a game and fairly effective sixth person, playing both wing and big guard. She transferred to DePaul after that year in order to get two years of eligibility, as did Sam at UVA. Brunelle did get her degree from ND, but Peoples didn't

As noted, Sam has suffered a string of injuries and they seem to have affected her conditioning and movement. She was never quick, but -- unfortunately -- plodding, does seem to be an accurate term.

 

[Frankus]

I really hope with Soni back that we play well and hold serve at home against Syracuse. It’s a pivotal game imo. Losing at home would be a big setback. I’m looking for better defensive rebounds and not letting Fair beat us in the 4th quarter. If Hannah, Soni and Maddie play consistently well-and stay out of foul trouble- I see us winning.

Uconn is a quick turnaround game in a tough place to play. I think we can win, but it’s not as pivotal as Syracuse imo. I expect it to be a hard fought game. I’m interested in seeing how Bueckers looks as a fully recovered player. Both teams are thin. So, fouls called could be a huge factor. We minimized Edwards last year, but minus Ebo we’re not as solid in the paint as we were last year. If she goes off it could be a long day.

 

[Dillon77]

I really hope with Soni back that we play well and hold serve at home against Syracuse. It’s a pivotal game imo. Losing at home would be a big setback. I’m looking for better defensive rebounds and not letting Fair beat us in the 4th quarter. If Hannah, Soni and Maddie play consistently well-and stay out of foul trouble- I see us winning.

Uconn is a quick turnaround game in a tough place to play. I think we can win, but it’s not as pivotal as Syracuse imo. I expect it to be a hard fought game. I’m interested in seeing how Bueckers looks as a fully recovered player. Both teams are thin. So, fouls called could be a huge factor. We minimized Edwards last year, but minus Ebo we’re not as solid in the paint as we were last year. If she goes off it could be a long day.

Agree that -- brand values aside -- the Notre Dame-Syracuse game is more important to the Irish, given that it's a conference game and the Irish need to hold serve, so to speak.

You're right, ND did a very good job against Edwards last year, and Ebo had a lot to do with it. But so did Maddy, whom will not be flustered by the assignment or location. I wouldn't be surprised to see Niele mix and match defenses all night to preserve energy and fouls, particularly for Maddy, who has become uber important to the Irish in lieu of a lack of other post scorers (Dodson, Ebo).

 

[oldude]

So I just watched ND get beaten at home by a smaller, quicker Syracuse team. I was really impressed with how the Orange continually attacked the basket.

While you can’t always project one game based on the outcome of another, on Saturday ND goes on the road, to the basketball capital of the world, to face another smaller, quicker team.

 

[Cornell Lt]

ND looked outclassed by the Orangewomen. They better get something figured out in the next 48 hrs or UConn is gonna have a cake walk

 

[oldude]

ND looked outclassed by the Orangewomen. They better get something figured out in the next 48 hrs or UConn is gonna have a cake walk

I’m just hoping for a UConn win. But clearly, ND struggled to contain Syracuse’s guards, and the Irish will face the best group of guards they will see all season in Storrs.

 

[Reypl21]

Yikessss

 

[Frankus]

Well, Soni shot poorly and Notre Dame’s lack of guard speed really hurt them defensively. As usual our bigs played small. Marshall in particularly has zero ball recognition as she’s blocking out.

Barring a huge scoring/shooting accuracy night for Hannah and Soni I expect to lose Saturday.

Ivey has got to hit the portal hard for a quick guard and explosive rebounder. Except for Hannah, we just don’t have the quickness to defend and rebound adequately enough against the better teams in the ACC, let alone the country.

Olivia Miles would mitigate some of our disadvantage, but our lack of a third quick guard and any big to compete with better rebounding teams would still be a huge liability.

 

[oldude]

Well, Soni shot poorly and Notre Dame’s lack of guard speed really hurt them defensively. As usual our bigs played small. Marshall in particularly has zero ball recognition as she’s blocking out.

Barring a huge scoring/shooting accuracy night for Hannah and Soni I expect to lose Saturday.

Ivey has got to hit the portal hard for a quick guard and explosive rebounder. Except for Hannah, we just don’t have the quickness to defend and rebound adequately enough against the better teams in the ACC, let alone the country.

Marshall was one of the top rated Bigs in the country coming out of Christ the King HS in NYC. I had the opportunity to watch her play twice in the Federation Cup tournament in Glens Falls, NY as a junior. The star of the tournament was Ossining senior and future UConn Husky Aubrey Griffin. But Christ the King was loaded, and they won the tournament in a great battle vs Ossining HS.

One of the things that stood out to me is that Marshall spent so little time in the paint. Her team had 2 other forwards, both headed to D1 programs, who did all the “dirty work” inside. Marshall tended to float around the perimeter taking jump shots. As highly rated as Marshall was, after watching that tournament, I had to wonder how she would do once she got to the next level.

 

[Frankus]

Marshall was one of the top Bigs in the country coming out of Christ the King HS in NYC. I had the opportunity to watch her play twice in the Federation Cup tournament in Glens Falls, NY as a junior. The star of the tournament was Ossining senior and future UConn Husky Aubrey Griffin. But Christ the King was loaded, and they won the tournament in a great battle vs Ossining HS.

One of the things that stood out to me is that Marshall spent so little time in the paint. Her team had 2 other forwards, both headed to D1 programs, who did all the “dirty work” inside. Marshall tended to float around the perimeter taking jump shots. As highly rated as Marshall was, after watching that tournament, I had to wonder how she would do once she got to the next level.

The thing that baffles me is that even though she had her knee injuries, she appears not to have developed any upper body strength through the S&C program.

She seems like a really nice person and fine representative of Notre Dame, but I don’t see her ever contributing meaningfully. It takes a lot of ferocity to play at the elite level inside and she hasn’t developed, or been developed, that way.

 

[oldude]

The thing that baffles me is that even though she had her knee injuries, she appears not to have developed any upper body strength through the S&C program.

She seems like a really nice person and fine representative of Notre Dame, but I don’t see her ever contributing meaningfully. It takes a lot of ferocity to play at the elite level inside and she hasn’t developed, or been developed, that way.

Given UConn’s history recruiting players from Christ the King, including two all-time greats (Sue Bird & Tina Charles) a lot of UConn fans were perplexed by the fact that Geno didn’t recruit Marshall very seriously, or at all for that matter. Clearly, Geno saw what I and others saw, that Marshall was a 6’5” player who wanted to play guard.

 

[Reypl21]

ND has a lot of problems. Post Play, depth, rebounding, and overall athleticism. What has concerned me since Niele took charge is the offense. The half court offense is bad. Every year she says she wants to emphasis transition. The better teams won't let you get out in transition. Her offensive schemes will hold her back from being a title contender IMO.

 

[Frankus]

ND has a lot of problems. Post Play, depth, rebounding, and overall athleticism. What has concerned me since Niele took charge is the offense. The half court offense is bad. Every year she says she wants to emphasis transition. The better teams won't let you get out in transition. Her offensive schemes will hold her back from being a title contender IMO.

In fairness to Nielle, we are a much more athletic team with Olivia and Cass.

That being said, she did not fill needs in the portal for this year, where she needed another athletic guard and an athletic big.

 

[GoChips20]

Curious whether ND fans expect to see Miles this year? I’d think not as we pass the halfway mark of the season.

If she does sit out until the fall, it does seem kind of odd that ND floated her possibly being ready for the SC season opener.