Notre Dame 2021-2022

[donalddoowop]

Hey Dillon77, what has happened to Westbeld's game this season. She does not seem to be playing as well this season as last year. I thought she would be one of the best Sophomore's in the country this year.

 

[Dillon77]

Hey Dillon77, what has happened to Westbeld's game this season. She does not seem to be playing as well this season as last year. I thought she would be one of the best Sophomore's in the country this year.

This has become a lightening-rod subject over on the Bench, as you can tell.

I think it's a two-fold answer:

• she's betwixt and between in Niele's sets; and,
• experiencing some aspects of a sophomore slump (I'll explain).

Betwixt:
While I challenge anyone to get to the exact scope of Niele's half-court offense, you can see two major focus points:

• the down low/high-low game, with Maya Dodson. McGraw used this (too much , some opinions) with Bri Turner and now Niele is doing the same with Maya. Option one and two is to get the ball to Dodson. It works, but has forced people to change: Maddy admitted as much in a post-game presser.
• ISOs. Most of the ISO's start with Olivia Miles who is increasingly calling her own number. And when she passes off those ISO sets, she's usually looking for fellow frosh, Soni Citron who cuts to the basket hard or Sam Brunelle, who always drops back to her designated three-pt. launch spot.

Maddy, not so much....caught between inside and outside.

Maddy does get her number called, but sometimes she's on but also off: the consistency is off.

Sophomore Slump:

• Last year, Maddy was option A, B and D (Dara Mabrey was there, too). It's a big difference headset-wise from sole focus to being one of many. (remember, Citron is here, too).
• Coaches are onto her. People know how to play her. Crowd her. Make her work for the shot.
• While Maddy prefers an outside-in approach, I'd maintain she had more success last year inside-out. Thus, she's having a bit of hard time flipping the switch.
• I think the effort on defense and rebounding is still good, but she now has help. Dodson is a force and Citron and Miles are very good at rebounding, partcularly Citron in ACC play. Maddy doesn't have to do it all.

Next year, I think Maddy has to work on her game facing the basket. Get some quickness to her moves. Let the jumper rip rather than ponder then let the defense get in her face.

And I've argued that Ivey has to integrate the ISO's with some sets that make it easier for Maddy, Sam and Soni to get shots off.

 

[Frankus]

This has become a lightening-rod subject over on the Bench, as you can tell.

I think it's a two-fold answer:

• she's betwixt and between in Niele's sets; and,
• experiencing some aspects of a sophomore slump (I'll explain).

Betwixt:
While I challenge anyone to get to the exact scope of Niele's half-court offense, you can see two major focus points:

• the down low/high-low game, with Maya Dodson. McGraw used this (too much , some opinions) with Bri Turner and now Niele is doing the same with Maya. Option one and two is to get the ball to Dodson. It works, but has forced people to change: Maddy admitted as much in a post-game presser.
• ISOs. Most of the ISO's start with Olivia Miles who is increasingly calling her own number. And when she passes off those ISO sets, she's usually looking for fellow frosh, Soni Citron who cuts to the basket hard or Sam Brunelle, who always drops back to her designated three-pt. launch spot.

Maddy, not so much....caught between inside and outside.

Maddy does get her number called, but sometimes she's on but also off: the consistency is off.

Sophomore Slump:

• Last year, Maddy was option A, B and D (Dara Mabrey was there, too). It's a big difference headset-wise from sole focus to being one of many. (remember, Citron is here, too).
• Coaches are onto her. People know how to play her. Crowd her. Make her work for the shot.
• While Maddy prefers an outside-in approach, I'd maintain she had more success last year inside-out. Thus, she's having a bit of hard time flipping the switch.
• I think the effort on defense and rebounding is still good, but she now has help. Dodson is a force and Citron and Miles are very good at rebounding, partcularly Citron in ACC play. Maddy doesn't have to do it all.

Next year, I think Maddy has to work on her game facing the basket. Get some quickness to her moves. Let the jumper rip rather than ponder then let the defense get in her face.

And I've argued that Ivey has to integrate the ISO's with some sets that make it easier for Maddy, Sam and Soni to get shots off.

Ivey’s offense allows Maddy to get her shot off. The problem is, when driving into the paint against elite players, she doesn’t have the explosiveness to finish.

Both Cochran and Engstler blocked her shot in the first quarter when she drove into the paint from the elbow. She also missed a wide open jumper from the free throw line. For ND to be elite now, she’s got to be able to score inside and outside and currently she can’t do it against the best teams.

Other than developing her through better strength and conditioning (which can and should happen) I don’t know what Ivey can do with either Maddy or Sam. Admittedly, there aren’t many 6’3” players in college women’s basketball who can be dual threats shooting accurately from outside and finishing in the paint. However, neither Sam or Maddy are ever going to be elite post players. So, I don’t know what Ivey can do but continue to work with them and try to develop their agility and explosiveness.

Hopefully Ivey will also bring in at least one portal player who can contribute an inside/outside game better than People’s and spell Maddy some minutes to get her some rest. She’s playing a ton of minutes-as are all the starters- and there’s no way they can play at the intensity needed all game long, when elite teams can bring in great players off the bench.

 

[Frankus]

^^^^^^^^^^^^
Correction:

One of the shots that was blocked was an off ball screen, not a drive, where Maddy was wide open in the paint, got the pass and Cochran blocked it. The Engstler block was off a dribble drive to the paint.

 

[Basket]

Even though Van Lith gets all the publicity, Engstler is the best player on the team.

Heck yeah she is

 

[my2cents]

This has become a lightening-rod subject over on the Bench, as you can tell.

I think it's a two-fold answer:

• she's betwixt and between in Niele's sets; and,
• experiencing some aspects of a sophomore slump (I'll explain).

Betwixt:
While I challenge anyone to get to the exact scope of Niele's half-court offense, you can see two major focus points:

• the down low/high-low game, with Maya Dodson. McGraw used this (too much , some opinions) with Bri Turner and now Niele is doing the same with Maya. Option one and two is to get the ball to Dodson. It works, but has forced people to change: Maddy admitted as much in a post-game presser.
• ISOs. Most of the ISO's start with Olivia Miles who is increasingly calling her own number. And when she passes off those ISO sets, she's usually looking for fellow frosh, Soni Citron who cuts to the basket hard or Sam Brunelle, who always drops back to her designated three-pt. launch spot.

Maddy, not so much....caught between inside and outside.

Maddy does get her number called, but sometimes she's on but also off: the consistency is off.

Sophomore Slump:

• Last year, Maddy was option A, B and D (Dara Mabrey was there, too). It's a big difference headset-wise from sole focus to being one of many. (remember, Citron is here, too).
• Coaches are onto her. People know how to play her. Crowd her. Make her work for the shot.
• While Maddy prefers an outside-in approach, I'd maintain she had more success last year inside-out. Thus, she's having a bit of hard time flipping the switch.
• I think the effort on defense and rebounding is still good, but she now has help. Dodson is a force and Citron and Miles are very good at rebounding, partcularly Citron in ACC play. Maddy doesn't have to do it all.

Next year, I think Maddy has to work on her game facing the basket. Get some quickness to her moves. Let the jumper rip rather than ponder then let the defense get in her face.

And I've argued that Ivey has to integrate the ISO's with some sets that make it easier for Maddy, Sam and Soni to get shots off.

Great analysis, wish you were a UCONN fan as we need some rationality on out board at times.
I think UCONN has some of the same issues, old school high low vs the modern, one in 4 out, that basketball is going to.
Bueckers, Fudd and Williams do not need picks or plays against man to man defenses. They can easily beat their "man" off the dribble wreaking havoc for the defense. Iowa put on a clinic playing this way against Mich. Give these players the room they need to operate.
One last thing. Sonia Citron , your great Freshman, has the BEST name in college basketball, like a James Bond character. Changing it to Soni, not so much.

 

[Dillon77]

One last thing. Sonia Citron , your great Freshman, has the BEST name in college basketball, like a James Bond character. Changing it to Soni, not so much.

I've heard you. Sonia Citron was just named the ACC Freshman of the Year.
(I will not get into the decision of why Olivia Miles wasn't considered one by playing six (6) games last season as an early enrollee).
Let's give credit to where credit is due: 11.7 ppg, 6.8 rpg, just under 30 minutes played per game. One of the reasons Irish fans are upbeat again (well, at least when Louisville's not around )

 

[CocoHusky]

I've heard you. Sonia Citron was just named the ACC Freshman of the Year.
(I will not get into the decision of why Olivia Miles wasn't considered one by playing six (6) games last season as an early enrollee).
Let's give credit to where credit is due: 11.7 ppg, 6.8 rpg, just under 30 minutes played per game. One of the reasons Irish fans are upbeat again (well, at least when Louisville's not around )

Sonia Citron is like a pint of Ben and Jerry ice cream- the ultimate guilty pleasure. I love love watching her play even in a ND uniform.
Good numbers for miles and she is clearly offensively gifted but she is an extreme defensive liability=Arike 2.0.

 

[Frankus]

Finishing At The Basket

As I watched the Louisville game again, I noticed how much better all the Louisville players were finishing around the basket. From Van Lith and the other guards to Engstler to their Bigs it was obvious that they had been drilled in ball fakes, hesitations, moving their pivot foot and finding the easiest way to score. They did this effortlessly and instinctively and rarely got their shot blocked or didn’t score.

There was a glaring lack of development by Notre Dame in this area of technique and skill. With the exception of Dodson and Miles-who is a natural- the rest of ND players put their shot up immediately, or looked clumsy trying to find ways the get a better shot and score.

This is coaching/development issue and needs to be a major point of emphasis in the off season. I’ve watched Dane Goodwin in the men’s program, who could not finish early in his career, develop this skill and Paul Atkinson is even more adept. It can be done. It has to be done.

 

[noirwestern]

Don't know if you caught any of the Indiana/Maryland game but Patberg sure looked good moving around. Finally. What a long road she's had.

 

[Dillon77]

Don't know if you caught any of the Indiana/Maryland game but Patberg sure looked good moving around. Finally. What a long road she's had.

I did watch the game and have watched Ali's career very closely, both at ND and at IU. She's overcome some very challenging times and has done a great job. She's been the constant for Teri Moren the last few years of this positive IU run; going from scorer and playmaker, to team leader and almost a second coach out there, while Grace Berger has turned into the last-second-shot initiator.

Wouldn't at all be surprised to see her head into coaching and I'd bet a bottom dollar Moren (obviously) and Muffet would make more than a few calls on her behalf.

 

[Vowelguy]

Does Dodson play very much? Seems like I never see her when I’m watching nd games.

Is mabrey coming back?

 

[rvwsleep]

Does Dodson play very much? Seems like I never see her when I’m watching nd games.

Is mabrey coming back?

Picked up 2 early fouls.

 

[Hayven]

Does Dodson play very much? Seems like I never see her when I’m watching nd games.

Is mabrey coming back?

Supposedly playing better than she ever was at Stanford.

 

[Frankus]

Does Dodson play very much? Seems like I never see her when I’m watching nd games.

Is mabrey coming back?

Yes Dodson plays a lot, but she has been picking up early fouls and goes to the bench. Unfortunately for ND we don’t have a backup post player as dominant on the boards or as a force in the paint.

Not sure about Mabrey.

 

[Dillon77]

Is mabrey coming back?

Not sure about Mabrey.

• Mabrey is coming back.
• Dodson has put in paper work to get an extra year.
• No word on Prohaska or Gilbert. Proshaska would have a medical exemption if she chooses to use it.

 

[Vowelguy]

• Mabrey is coming back.
• Dodson has put in paper work to get an extra year.
• No word on Prohaska or Gilbert. Proshaska would have a medical exemption if she chooses to use it.

This is Dodsons 4th year playing 2018, 19, 20, 22. On what basis can she get an extra year?

 

[Dillon77]

This is Dodsons 4th year playing 2018, 19, 20, 22. On what basis can she get an extra year?

There was no reason stated in the article that said Ms. Dodson was applying for an extra year.

• In 2017-18 and 2018-19, Dodson played pretty full seasons.
• In 2019-20, she missed the first 24 games of the season and played the last nine (starting seven).
• Dodson opted out of the 2020-21 season, citing a variety of reasons, including that her father contracted Covid.d
• And, of course, she's playing 2021-22.

Once again, no reason was cited publicly. My legwork and questions, if I was to take out my old reporter notebook, would focus on the Covid season or the shortened season. Stay tuned....

 

[Iluvacc2]

This is Dodsons 4th year playing 2018, 19, 20, 22. On what basis can she get an extra year?

Ali Patberg is finishing a 10 yr bit

I think Dodson can get another year

 

[Vowelguy]

There was no reason stated in the article that said she was applying for an extra year.

• In 2017-18 and 2018-19, she played pretty full seasons.
• In 2019-20, she missed the first 24 games of the season and played the last nine (starting seven).
• She opted out of the 2020-21 season, citing a variety of reasons, including that her father contracted Covid.d
• And, of course, she's playing 2021-22.

Once again, no reason was cited publicly. My legwork and questions, if I was to take out my old reporter notebook, would focus on the Covid season or the shortened season. Stay tuned....

The rule has always been that if you come back at the end of the season it counts. And countless players have given up a chance to help their teams specifically cause they didn’t want to burn a year of eligibility. If she gets an exemption after the fact that’s complete bull crap.

 

[Plebe]

The rule has always been that if you come back at the end of the season it counts. And countless players have given up a chance to help their teams specifically cause they didn’t want to burn a year of eligibility. If she gets an exemption after the fact that’s complete bull crap.

It's Notre Dame. Rules don't apply to them. The sooner we all just accept that the happier we'll all be. I have no illusions that this case will be any different.

 

[Iluvacc2]

The rule has always been that if you come back at the end of the season it counts. And countless players have given up a chance to help their teams specifically cause they didn’t want to burn a year of eligibility. If she gets an exemption after the fact that’s complete bull crap.

I think the exemption is for the Covid year which was last year. Anyone that played last year is eligible for an additional year. Now the tricky part is she didn’t play last year, so it’s up to the NCAA to determine whether she should be granted another year.

 

[Vowelguy]

I think the exemption is for the Covid year which was last year. Anyone that played last year is eligible for an additional year. Now the tricky part is she didn’t play last year, so it’s up to the NCAA to determine whether she should be granted another year.

Again the rule was clear: last year does not count. Players are not “eligible for a 5th year”. It’s just that last year does not count against the 4.
She chose not to play.
She has exhausted her 4 years.

 

[Iluvacc2]

Again the rule was clear: last year does not count. Players are not “eligible for a 5th year”. It’s just that last year does not count against the 4.

Correct, last year does not count against the 4 so anyone that played last year could decide to return for a fifth year whenever their “original” eligibility ends.

 

[UConnCat]

Again the rule was clear: last year does not count. Players are not “eligible for a 5th year”. It’s just that last year does not count against the 4.
She chose not to play.
She has exhausted her 4 years.

The only way Dodson could have benefited from the NCAA's covid rule (without playing) was if she needed a 6th year to complete her 4 years of eligibility. She didn't as she finished her 4 years of eligibility during her 5th year (the 21-22 season).

Her waiver must be based on the '19-20 season and her injury though I thought the NCAA rule on that is pretty cut and dry. She played 9 games at the end of the season, not the beginning of the season.

Of course, as @Plebe notes, there is precedence for the NCAA making unusual decisions when it comes to Notre Dame WBB and waiver requests. I foresee the emergence of the Dodson waiver.