Non-Key Tweets

[upstater]

Jack Swarbrick and Father John Jenkins would prefer the ACC, and they have both said so.

You seem to be having trouble believing that this decision has been made by Notre Dame. Notre Dame will tell you it has, and they have committed themselves.

You believe these guys?

What do you think they are going to say?

We prefer the B1G?

 

[billybud]

Nope.....Who could swear? But the Irish signed a very explicit contract that said that if they were to join a conference, it would be the ACC.

Why sign it?

Because that would be what the Irish would do if they had to leave independent status. And they won't have to IMHO.

And, because no one in South Bend now underestimates the booster and fan dislike of the Big Ten as a home.

It is ancient history, but the Big Ten rebuffed the Irish desire to join the Big Ten for years. Hints of bigotry were circulated. Older boosters remember and tell younger boosters. It is part of the culture now. The tension between the Irish and the Big Ten has always been there.

And now, with the B1G's Gee making statements that many took to be anti Catholic and just more of the same, it added another layer. Add in Hoke's "chicken" comment and it is just another brick in the wall along with widely circulated public slams against Notre Dame made by Bielema when he was Wisconsin HC and by JoPa at PSU.

Myself...I have enjoyed the FSU-Notre Dame games and lo0k forward to future ones.

 

[TerryD]

Here's the big question: a decade ago, the ND administration and AD gave the B1G a tentative yes.

The alumni and boosters revolted. The whole show was taken to a chalet in France. Afterward, ND came out and told the B1g, thanks but no thanks. Why did ND's alum and boosters revolt? Because the school prizes its independence.

What does the ACC allow ND? Independence in football.

Now, can anyone swear that, if the D4 rules demanded conference affiliation, that ND's administration, having overcome any booster or alumni complaints because of the new dictates, would prefer the ACC to the B1G, when the administration chose to join the B1G a decade ago?

Here's the big question: a decade ago, the ND administration and AD gave the B1G a tentative yes.

The alumni and boosters revolted. The whole show was taken to a chalet in France. Afterward, ND came out and told the B1g, thanks but no thanks. Why did ND's alum and boosters revolt? Because the school prizes its independence.

What does the ACC allow ND? Independence in football.

Now, can anyone swear that, if the D4 rules demanded conference affiliation, that ND's administration, having overcome any booster or alumni complaints because of the new dictates, would prefer the ACC to the B1G, when the administration chose to join the B1G a decade ago?

A couple of things.

It was 1999, not a decade ago.

The ND Faculty Senate voted yes to the Big Ten, not the administration.

The Board of Trustees had to formally vote on the Big Ten proposal.

They met and voted in London, not in France.

The vote was not close, the alumni and boosters did indeed revolt.

The Big Ten approached ND (along with Texas) again in 2010.

Both said no, the Big Ten expanded with Nebraska.

If anything, ND is in a better position regarding independence and is more anti-Big Ten than in 1999.

The alumni and boosters are more rabid about independence than ever.

It is a source of pride and becomes more entrenched the more others try to threaten it.

ND's option in an Armageddon scenario is the ACC or even the Big 12 (Texas) before the Big Ten.

Go to any ND message board and ask the question about how they would view Big Ten membership.

 

[upstater]

Nope.....Who could swear? But the Irish signed a very explicit contract that said that if they were to join a conference, it would be the ACC.

Why sign it?

Because that would be what the Irish would do if they had to leave independent status. And they won't have to IMHO.

And, because no one in South Bend now underestimates the booster and fan dislike of the Big Ten as a home.

It is ancient history, but the Big Ten rebuffed the Irish desire to join the Big Ten for years. Hints of bigotry were circulated. Older boosters remember and tell younger boosters. It is part of the culture now. The tension between the Irish and the Big Ten has always been there.

And now, with the B1G's Gee making statements that many took to be anti Catholic and just more of the same, it added another layer. Add in Hoke's "chicken" comment and it is just another brick in the wall along with widely circulated public slams against Notre Dame made by Bielema when he was Wisconsin HC and by JoPa at PSU.

Myself...I have enjoyed the FSU-Notre Dame games and lo0k forward to future ones.

We've been through this already in this thread. The cost of losing TV rights to basketball for a decade is a pittance. The contract is not worth that much.

The ND people who chose the B1G when they could have gone anywhere are not ancient history. They're still around. All I'm saying is that you ACC fans put way too much trust in the ND hierarchy.

 

[specialisthusky]

Can we go back to talking about the dude now? I like him more than Notre Dame

 

[upstater]

A couple of things.

It was 1999, not a decade ago.

The ND Faculty Senate voted yes to the Big Ten, not the administration.

The Board of Trustees had to formally vote on the Big Ten proposal.

They met and voted in London, not in France.

The vote was not close, the alumni and boosters did indeed revolt.

The Big Ten approached ND (along with Texas) again in 2010.

Both said no, the Big Ten expanded with Nebraska.

If anything, ND is in a better position regarding independence and is more anti-Big Ten than in 1999.

The alumni and boosters are more rabid about independence than ever.

It is a source of pride and becomes more entrenched the more others try to threaten it.

ND's option in an Armageddon scenario is the ACC or even the Big 12 (Texas) before the Big Ten.

Go to any ND message board and ask the question about how they would view Big Ten membership.

The boosters and alumni met in France. That's where it all came down. They did vote later on. And yes the President and the AD were on board with the move to the B1G.

Are you saying they weren't?

 

[billybud]

Doesn't really matter who was on board....the boosters and board were not evidently on board.

I think that ship has sailed.

 

[Thirdelement]

Can we go back to talking about the dude now? I like him more than Notre Dame​

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Now, that hurts​

 

[Exit 4]

In the latest NRC report, more UB programs rose into the top 10 than ever before. It is actually coming up. Not sure what you mean by undergrad world, but the metrics for top 10% grads and SATs are higher than ever and on par with top publics. But that's going on everywhere.

The Bioinformatics building was $300 million, Davis Hall $75 million. I left out other buildings like this one: http://www.buffaloctrc.org/ It cost $118m. I think these are pretty big buildings. They have a medical school going up this coming year. They've been saving for that one. It's going to be a doozy. $375m. That's 4 buildings at almost $900 million.

Personally, I put a lot more stock in the NRC rankings than USNews. UB student SATs are par with AAU state schools, the mean is 1200 in SATs. UConn is at 1220. Not that big a difference. I actually left a top private school to teach in my field because the program at UB was top 10 nationally.

My perception is that Buffalo still has a long way to go to move past safety school status. Back in the 90s when I attended it was a huge commuter school, packed with kids who lived at home and treated the place like a community college. The other typical situation was the lazy and lost long island kid who probably scored well on the SAT but was too lazy to push themselves beyond the simple SUNY application.

Yes UB2020 is more real than I had realized and its impressive and yes, the state of NY's subsidy is impressive as well. Living and working in the NYC/FF County area for the past 15 years I have seen Uconn's rep improve with both employers and as well as moderate/high income families with with the means to have solid college choices. My observation is tha UConn is increasingly considered a first choice, even with kids near the top of their class. I have not witnessed the same with SUNY Buffalo (my workplace is equally mixed with NYers and CTers). Of course NYC is not the end all for Buffalo grads, I'm just saying for a NY school, it still has a long ways to go bring people around to the ideal its a third choice safety school. And a long ways to go to unite and motivate the alumni to have pride.

 

[upstater]

Doesn't really matter who was on board....the boosters and board were not evidently on board.

I think that ship has sailed.

Sigh.

You missed the whole premise.

IF... the D$ arrangement forced everyone into conferences...

That was the premise of the discussion.

 

[upstater]

My perception is that Buffalo still has a long way to go to move past safety school status. Back in the 90s when I attended it was a huge commuter school, packed with kids who lived at home and treated the place like a community college. The other typical situation was the lazy and lost long island kid who probably scored well on the SAT but was too lazy to push themselves beyond the simple SUNY application.

Yes UB2020 is more real than I had realized and its impressive and yes, the state of NY's subsidy is impressive as well. Living and working in the NYC/FF County area for the past 15 years I have seen Uconn's rep improve with both employers and as well as moderate/high income families with with the means to have solid college choices. My observation is tha UConn is increasingly considered a first choice, even with kids near the top of their class. I have not witnessed the same with SUNY Buffalo (my workplace is equally mixed with NYers and CTers). Of course NYC is not the end all for Buffalo grads, I'm just saying for a NY school, it still has a long ways to go bring people around to the ideal its a third choice safety school. And a long ways to go to unite and motivate the alumni to have pride.

That's a pretty long commute. Most of our students are from downstate. It would be an incredible commute if they were doing that. State schools in the northeast have always suffered from "safety" school status. It's just how it is. But that's cultural. It says little about the quality of the school. A school pulling $400m a year in research with numerous programs in the top 10 is most definitely not a commuter school. Whether students like it or not, the competition for spots at private schools and the cost of a private education has forced a majority of the top students to look at schools like SUNY-Buffalo. Half the incoming class at UB finished in the top 10% of their school. This is not uncommon at many state schools including UConn. As well, with the enlarging honors programs, these schools are snagging kids who would have gone to the top privates a generation ago.

 

[Chuck]

My perception is that Buffalo still has a long way to go to move past safety school status. Back in the 90s when I attended it was a huge commuter school, packed with kids who lived at home and treated the place like a community college. The other typical situation was the lazy and lost long island kid who probably scored well on the SAT but was too lazy to push themselves beyond the simple SUNY application.

Yes UB2020 is more real than I had realized and its impressive and yes, the state of NY's subsidy is impressive as well. Living and working in the NYC/FF County area for the past 15 years I have seen Uconn's rep improve with both employers and as well as moderate/high income families with with the means to have solid college choices. My observation is tha UConn is increasingly considered a first choice, even with kids near the top of their class. I have not witnessed the same with SUNY Buffalo (my workplace is equally mixed with NYers and CTers). Of course NYC is not the end all for Buffalo grads, I'm just saying for a NY school, it still has a long ways to go bring people around to the ideal its a third choice safety school. And a long ways to go to unite and motivate the alumni to have pride.

Buffalo reminds me a lot of Ohio State and a few other B1G schools in that its reputation is grad school / research based. People not in academia or the sciences generally think of a school's undergrad program because that's where their kids or neighbors' kids applied. Ohio State and Buffalo are not hard to get in to (although I'm sure someone is going to tell me how much that has changed). All my cousins went to Ohio State. Some were accomplished teenagers, others had more juvenile issues than points in their GPA. Those cousins failed out. My sister got her doctorate at Buffalo after an undergrad and masters at world renown undergrads. She had to take a few undergrad courses in her first year and then TA. She was underwhelmed by the students.

Buffalo is a safety school, but it is like other B1G schools. Buffalo has no shot at the B1G for other reasons. I think all will admit that Buffalo would not get you tv sets. Not local tv sets, and certainly not tv sets where the population / money is. Buffalo is an interesting city. I've only been a few times. It looks and feels like a dead town. They have terrible brain drain. But don't talk bad about Buffalo from someone that grew up there. I've seen many that leave the area but intend to (and often do) go back. My sister said there was no way she was staying past graduation. Then she got a decent job and she figured she'd stay for a couple years. Now it's been like 10 years and she finally took the "interim" off.

 

[upstater]

Buffalo is a safety school, but it is like other B1G schools.

Just to put some things in perspective: UConn and Buffalo have near identical acceptance rates and average SATs. Near identical top 10% of class numbers.

Is Uconn a safety school?

 

[billybud]

Sigh.

You missed the whole premise.

IF... the D$ arrangement forced everyone into conferences...

That was the premise of the discussion.

Nope...you missed the answer. The board at Notre Dame approved a contract tieing them into the ACC if they decided to enter a conference before 2027.

Asked and answered.

 

[CL82]

Just to put some things in perspective: UConn and Buffalo have near identical acceptance rates and average SATs. Near identical top 10% of class numbers.

Is Uconn a safety school?

Nah, good sports and the dairy bar make UConn a #1 choice.

 

[kyleslamb]

The ACC has a separate contract with Notre Dame that stipulates that iof the Irish joim a conference before 2027, it will be the ACC.

A suit for breach would result in claims for huge damages. It ain't going to happen, anyway.

The ACC's contract with Notre Dame is its agreement to join the league. If it leaves the league, any agreement it has to join the ACC in football until 2026-27 would be void along with the membership.

The only thing the ACC would retain is Notre Dame's rights to olympic sports home games, which amount to very little in the way of revenue anyhow.

There would be no breach of contract. They already can leave the league, and thus, can join another league (even in football).

 

[btstimpy]

We've been through this already in this thread. The cost of losing TV rights to basketball for a decade is a pittance. The contract is not worth that much.

The ND people who chose the B1G when they could have gone anywhere are not ancient history. They're still around. All I'm saying is that you ACC fans put way too much trust in the ND hierarchy.

The contract with Notre Dame Football, the Grant of Rights, and the Exit Fee make it much easier to trust. If Notre Dame football enters a conference before 2026-2027, it will be the ACC. If the Division 4 requires it, it will be the ACC. It has already been decided and agreed to under contract. If the ACC adds a few more Ice Hockey teams, ND hockey will also join the ACC. I don't see that on the horizon, but that's also agreed to.

 

[upstater]

The contract with Notre Dame Football, the Grant of Rights, and the Exit Fee make it much easier to trust. If Notre Dame football enters a conference before 2026-2027, it will be the ACC. If the Division 4 requires it, it will be the ACC. It has already been decided and agreed to under contract. If the ACC adds a few more Ice Hockey teams, ND hockey will also join the ACC. I don't see that on the horizon, but that's also agreed to.

ND signed a GOR for sports other than football, and the money lost there is minimal. It wouldn't dissuade ND at all.

 

[upstater]

Nope...you missed the answer. The board at Notre Dame approved a contract tieing them into the ACC if they decided to enter a conference before 2027.

Asked and answered.

What are the penalties?

ASKED

 

[kyleslamb]

The contract with Notre Dame Football, the Grant of Rights, and the Exit Fee make it much easier to trust. If Notre Dame football enters a conference before 2026-2027, it will be the ACC. If the Division 4 requires it, it will be the ACC. It has already been decided and agreed to under contract. If the ACC adds a few more Ice Hockey teams, ND hockey will also join the ACC. I don't see that on the horizon, but that's also agreed to.

You're putting an awful lot of undue clout and confidence into one comment made by Swofford considering you've never seen the contract, nor has anyone else outside of the impacted parties.

My advice is that you not take everything Swofford says as gospel and consider Notre Dame didn't back themselves into a situation they couldn't get out of if they want to do so. Notre Dame's contract is contingent upon ACC membership. That means if they join a league for football, it has to be the ACC -- while they're ACC members. If they terminate the contract legally, as they have the ability to do, all bets are off.

 

[kyleslamb]

What are the penalties?

ASKED

It's terrific you're asking this question persistently. Obviously you'll never get an answer because they haven't seen the contract, they're all just taking John Swofford's word for it. Even then, they're basing it off one comment by Swofford without even knowing the context of the agreement.

 

[btstimpy]

ND signed a GOR for sports other than football, and the money lost there is minimal. It wouldn't dissuade ND at all.

And ND signed a Contract committing football to the ACC as well for the same term. We have the appearance of Independence for ND football, but that Independence is reduced to 3 regular season games per year, an independent home game TV contract where ACC teams will be featured, and BCS bowls. The rest of Notre Dame football is in the ACC, 5 games and all other bowl games with splits just like any other ACC team.

Can they pay a bunch of money to break that contract? Probably. Maryland is going to be doing it. Will they? To go to the Big XII or SEC? Doubt it. They have already turned down the Big Ten, and aren't interested in re-evaluating the Big Ten. Jack Swarbrick loved nothing more than dropping Michigan from Notre Dame Football's schedule. He slipped a note into the pocket of the Michigan AD doing it.

 

[billybud]

No one has seen the contract..obviously.

But unless I like wearing a tin foil hat and deciding that it is all some conspiracy, I take the ACC's comment about the contract at face measure.

There seems to be a huge need by fans of former Big East teams to believe that the ACC got snookered by Notre Dame.

I do understand the mechanisms in play. If your ex wife snookered you badly, you have to believe that her new husband will get the same.

It is part of the human condition.

 

[btstimpy]

You're putting an awful lot of undue clout and confidence into one comment made by Swofford considering you've never seen the contract, nor has anyone else outside of the impacted parties.

My advice is that you not take everything Swofford says as gospel and consider Notre Dame didn't back themselves into a situation they couldn't get out of if they want to do so. Notre Dame's contract is contingent upon ACC membership. That means if they join a league for football, it has to be the ACC -- while they're ACC members. If they terminate the contract legally, as they have the ability to do, all bets are off.

I'm not putting faith in a comment by Swofford. In fact, I'm shocked Swofford let the cat out of the bag. The UVA legal team reviewed the Notre Dame football contract and commitment before authorizing Teresa Sullivan to sign the Grant of Rights. In fact, every school in the ACC has seen it, and is comfortable with it. ESPN has seen it. Everyone agreed to keep it a secret and to respect Notre Dame's desire to be able to claim independence even when they all knew it wasn't actually independence. It is partial independence. Then Swofford failed to keep his own secret when asked in the Press Conference.

 

[billybud]

Penalties?

Like any contract in breach that does not have a predetermined approximation of liquidated damages, the damage would be decided in a court of law. Say in 2017, ND wanted out...that would be 50 lost games on the ACC schedule that almost guarantee ticket sales (and teams like Pitt ask almost double for Notre Dame tickets than a run of the mill opponent), cost of replacement teams, etc......all sorts of ancillary damages.

It just isn't going to happen any more than Virginia is going to bolt for the Big ten.