OT: Non Husky Topic. If you think Michael Jordan was the GOAT.....

[UConnSwag11]

Klutch and ESPN/Fox did the same thing to Kobe

 

[TheChamps990411]

Jordan fans yap about LeBron til the cows come home, stop acting like it’s only him lol

Ok hater.

 

[tzznandrew]

When Moses brought a very pedestrian Rockets team to the NBA finals in 1981 I thought I would never see anything like that again yet Lebron did it twice, the first time and the last time that he took the Cavs to the finals.

In each of those three cases, if you were to replace that one player with the third or fourth best player in the league at his position (center in Malone's case, small forward in Lebron's), you would have a 25 won team, not an NBA finals contender.

The first and last time LeBron went to the Finals with the Cavs he was swept because of how bad his teams were. He gets credit for getting them there, but the East was so terrible that it's not nearly as impressive as claim. In 2007 he would have been a 6-seed in the West and gotten swept by the Spurs who swept him in the Finals. In 2018, they may have been the third best team in the NBA, but the gap between the Rockets/Warriors and the rest was huge. Place them out West and they're a second round team.

What Moses did in 1981 was frankly more impressive. LeBron is great. I have Jordan #1 but I can see a claim for LeBron. This thread is absurd, though.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Ok hater.

I am anything but a hater. Just want people to speak on level terms. Every player in history has deficiencies, treat them appropriately.

 

[TheChamps990411]

I am anything but a hater. Just want people to speak on level terms. Every player in history has deficiencies, treat them appropriately.

Im not talking about any of that. The simple point is Jordan is the goat, end of discussion. Hes not perfect, no one is. Hes just closer than anyone else. Twenty years after his retirement trying to knock him is lame.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Im not talking about any of that. The simple point is Jordan is the goat, end of discussion. Hes not perfect, no one is. Hes just closer than anyone else. Twenty years after his retirement trying to knock him is lame.

No, it’s not. As I said, everyone is fallible. LeBron, my goat, included 100%. That’s the issue I have with diehard Jordan fans sometimes. You act as if it’s sacrilegious to bring up any shortcomings of his.

 

[TheChamps990411]

No, it’s not. As I said, everyone is fallible. LeBron, my goat, included 100%. That’s the issue I have with diehard Jordan fans sometimes. You act as if it’s sacrilegious to bring up any shortcomings of his.

First, i didnt. Second, get over it.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

First, i didnt. Second, get over it.

Good retort boss.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

It always devolves to that. Jordan fans often can’t say 1 bad thing about him. I’m a LeBron fan and can recognize the faults he’s had, Mavs series, poor finals record, etc. But Jordan never had any hiccups apparently.

I would never consider myself specifically a Jordan fan or a Lebron fan although there are a number of things I admire about each players individual game. Anyone who doesn't believe each in on a very short list of greatest players ever is being intentionally obtuse.

My biggest issue is that when someone says MJ is one of the best, instead of claiming that he is without question the best, the response is similar to someone having committing blasphemy.

Where I take issue is in the fact that basketball was played, ar an exceptionally high level prior to 1984. MJ was the beneficiary of three things that converged all at basically the start of his NBA career:

David Stern became commissioner and basically mandated star power as the league's MO.

ESPN became basically ubiquitous within this country and highlights became a staple of what they were selling audiences.

Nike pulled out all stops in an advertising/promotional campaign ("it must be the shoes") to move from a company that also made basketball shoes to the to athletic shoe company in the world.

Yes, MJ's massive talents played an exceptionally large role in all of that succeeding and yes, a very valid argument can be made that he was the best ever. I do however also believe that there were a couple of players who did not have the benefit of any of those three things who may belong in the argument.

 

[TheChamps990411]

Yes, MJ's massive talents played an exceptionally large role in all of that succeeding and yes, a very valid argument can be made that he was the best ever. I do however also believe that there were a couple of players who did not have the benefit of any of those three things who may belong in the argument.

MJs greatness has nothing to do with how many shoes he sold or commercials he was in. Thats POPULARITY. You are absolutely on the money that he came around at the right time to capitalize and take to another level the foundation Magic and Bird laid ahead of him. That being said what he was able to do on the court and on the court alone because thats all that matters is what made him great. btw to you or anyone else who thinks he isnt the greatest please make your case. Im all ears/eyes. Totally open to having my mind changed.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

MJs greatness has nothing to do with how many shoes he sold or commercials he was in. Thats POPULARITY. You are absolutely on the money that he came around at the right time to capitalize and take to another level the foundation Magic and Bird laid ahead of him. That being said what he was able to do on the court and on the court alone because thats all that matters is what made him great. btw to you or anyone else who thinks he isnt the greatest please make your case. Im all ears/eyes. Totally open to having my mind changed.

Who would I put over MJ? Well to answer that question I will need a bit of context. Basketball is a team sport but if you are speaking just two players, mano a mano, in a game of one on one, placing each player at where he was at a similar age, 25, 28, 30, well, I don’t see Jordan as the best under those conditions. I know he would never stop Wilt and he would need to shoot only 20+ footers hope to hit all of them to stay even (he wouldn’t). He would have a very difficult time scoring from anywhere on the court playing one on one against Bill Russell and would not be able to stop him from in close.

Basketball however is a team sport (as I stated earlier) so what would be needed to know is who are the other four players (assuming those four, plus MJ would be better than those four plus anyone else). If the four selected players didn’t have a point guard, there are players I would put ahead of MJ and the same would be said if there was no center. MJ would be my choice is a wing was the missing piece but I could see an argument for Oscar. I could also understand (but not agree with) an argument for Lebron.

My resistance to MJ being without question the best ever is primarily due to the fact that anything that happened more than a few years before he played in the NBA is dismissed, which eliminates quite a bit of exceptional basketball players.

They bring up MJ’s rings as evidence yet Russell’s rings don’t seem to count. Additionally, the idea that every time he was eliminated was before they made it to the finals somehow makes it a better career baffles me. There was a time when the Bulls were in the west. If for some reason, the configuration of the playoffs at that time was such that the years the Pistons knocked off the Bulls on their way to back-to-back titles, if that matchup was is the finals, instead of the semifinals, how would that have been a lesser accomplishment for the Bulls or MJ?

My first question on MJ (when compared in general to some who can be viewed as all-time greats) is why did it take until he was 28 before he was able to win his first NBA title? There were quite a few players who landed on non-descript teams and within a couple of years led the to the promised land. Kareem did it his second year (I will address the state of basketball during that period if necessary but there were quite a few tremendous teams in those days, teams that if they were placed in today’s game with the three point shot and rules for free flow of offense, would be dominant). Magic won it all as a rookie and Bird did the same in his second year. I image that the competition they played against in years they didn’t win and the quality of his teammates would be the excuse. Somehow, the level of competition someone plays with and against is viewed differently when addressing MJ than with anyone else.

I will also add the impact of the referees using a different set of standards for MJ than whoever was opposite him. Pal pointed out Shaq getting called for a foul for looking at him. I vividly remember a playoff game where MJ went to give Gerald Wilkins a little shove to make enough room to rive by him, Wilkins didn‘t budge, MJ points to the ref and yells something then the ref calls a foul on Wilkins. Actually attempting to guard him was against the rules quite often.

Again, I view MJ as one of the very few best to ever have played. If someone views that as an insult to MJ, all I can say is that person needs to open his eyes a little.

 

[Scoe]

Who would I put over MJ? Well to answer that question I will need a bit of context. Basketball is a team sport but if you are speaking just two players, mano a mano, in a game of one on one, placing each player at where he was at a similar age, 25, 28, 30, well, I don’t see Jordan as the best under those conditions. I know he would never stop Wilt and he would need to shoot only 20+ footers hope to hit all of them to stay even (he wouldn’t). He would have a very difficult time scoring from anywhere on the court playing one on one against Bill Russell and would not be able to stop him from in close.

Basketball however is a team sport (as I stated earlier) so what would be needed to know is who are the other four players (assuming those four, plus MJ would be better than those four plus anyone else). If the four selected players didn’t have a point guard, there are players I would put ahead of MJ and the same would be said if there was no center. MJ would be my choice is a wing was the missing piece but I could see an argument for Oscar. I could also understand (but not agree with) an argument for Lebron.

My resistance to MJ being without question the best ever is primarily due to the fact that anything that happened more than a few years before he played in the NBA is dismissed, which eliminates quite a bit of exceptional basketball players.

They bring up MJ’s rings as evidence yet Russell’s rings don’t seem to count. Additionally, the idea that every time he was eliminated was before they made it to the finals somehow makes it a better career baffles me. There was a time when the Bulls were in the west. If for some reason, the configuration of the playoffs at that time was such that the years the Pistons knocked off the Bulls on their way to back-to-back titles, if that matchup was is the finals, instead of the semifinals, how would that have been a lesser accomplishment for the Bulls or MJ?

My first question on MJ (when compared in general to some who can be viewed as all-time greats) is why did it take until he was 28 before he was able to win his first NBA title? There were quite a few players who landed on non-descript teams and within a couple of years led the to the promised land. Kareem did it his second year (I will address the state of basketball during that period if necessary but there were quite a few tremendous teams in those days, teams that if they were placed in today’s game with the three point shot and rules for free flow of offense, would be dominant). Magic won it all as a rookie and Bird did the same in his second year. I image that the competition they played against in years they didn’t win and the quality of his teammates would be the excuse. Somehow, the level of competition someone plays with and against is viewed differently when addressing MJ than with anyone else.

I will also add the impact of the referees using a different set of standards for MJ than whoever was opposite him. Pal pointed out Shaq getting called for a foul for looking at him. I vividly remember a playoff game where MJ went to give Gerald Wilkins a little shove to make enough room to rive by him, Wilkins didn‘t budge, MJ points to the ref and yells something then the ref calls a foul on Wilkins. Actually attempting to guard him was against the rules quite often.

Again, I view MJ as one of the very few best to ever have played. If someone views that as an insult to MJ, all I can say is that person needs to open his eyes a little.

The Lakers in the 80s had no competition in the West. They had an easy path to the finals, there wasn’t much defense in the West, they would beat teams like the Nuggets and Suns 130-100 type of scores.

Magic and Bird were on stacked teams who already had hall of famers on it and both the Celtics and Lakers were already historic franchises. MJ was on perhaps the worst franchise in the sport with no local fan interest.

 

[Scoe]

MJ won 6 titles and 3 peated twice. Lebron on the Heat couldn’t 3 peat, KD on the Warriors couldn’t 3 peat. Essentially MJ won 6 titles in a row in full seasons, missed an entire year of basketball training.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Magic and Bird were on stacked teams who already had hall of famers on it and both the Celtics and Lakers were already historic franchises. MJ was on perhaps the worst franchise in the sport with no local fan interest.

The two seasons before Bird joined the team, the Celtics went 32-50 (77-78) & 29-53 (78-79). Beyond two aging veterans (Dave Cowens, Don Chaney) they had Chris Ford and a number of semi-descript players bouncing in and out with trades (Marvin Barnes, Sidney Wickes, Billy Knight, Curtis Rowe, Freeman Williams, Kermit Washington), 1977’s first round selection (Cedrick Maxwell) and an injury prone Nate Archibald.

The two years prior to Magic showing up in LA the Lakers did make the playoffs both years (45-37 in 77-78 & 47-35 in 78-79) but each was a third place finish in their division and they won only one playoff series over both seasons. Beyond a very disinterested Kareem, quite a few journeymen, an overrated, ball hog point guard (Norm Nixon) they had two pretty good players who unfortunately played the same position (Jamal Wilkes & Adrian Dantley).

Neither player walked into a ready made situation and if we want to take a deep dive on who any of the greats had around them and the quality of who it was that they needed to knock off on the way, I’m not sure the results would favor Jordan.

 

[Scoe]

The two seasons before Bird joined the team, the Celtics went 32-50 (77-78) & 29-53 (78-79). Beyond two aging veterans (Dave Cowens, Don Chaney) they had Chris Ford and a number of semi-descript players bouncing in and out with trades (Marvin Barnes, Sidney Wickes, Billy Knight, Curtis Rowe, Freeman Williams, Kermit Washington), 1977’s first round selection (Cedrick Maxwell) and an injury prone Nate Archibald.

The two years prior to Magic showing up in LA the Lakers did make the playoffs both years (45-37 in 77-78 & 47-35 in 78-79) but each was a third place finish in their division and they won only one playoff series over both seasons. Beyond a very disinterested Kareem, quite a few journeymen, an overrated, ball hog point guard (Norm Nixon) they had two pretty good players who unfortunately played the same position (Jamal Wilkes & Adrian Dantley).

Neither player walked into a ready made situation and if we want to take a deep dive on who any of the greats had around them and the quality of who it was that they needed to knock off on the way, I’m not sure the results would favor Jordan.

Still a far better situation than Jordan stepped into two historic franchises. Lakers were a playoff team with Kareem and Jamal Wilkes. Celtics weren’t good but the franchise was still good and Red Auerbach had a ton of pull with the draft and manipulating the system.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

I will add that you didn't include Kareem. He arrived at a franchise in its second season and in his second season he won the title in an NBA that had some exceptional teams.

In viewing the five seasons beginning in 1969-1970, ending in 1973-1974, there may have been more teams capable of dynastic runs in other periods than any other time in NBA history. The Knicks won two titles, (1970, 1973), while the Bucks. Lakers and Celtics won one each (1971, 1972, 1974 respectively) but each of those teams, in almost any other era would have ended up with three or four titles in that span.

The Celtics (beat the Bucks in the 74 finals) had a tremendous squad but couldn't get by the Knicks in 1972 or 1973. The Bucks were knocked off by the Knicks (1970. their last season in the east), the Lakers twice, then the Celtics in the finals. The Lakers got knocked off by the Knicks in two finals and the Bucks in two conference finals wrapped around a title.

Getting through some of these teams was a bit tougher than beating the Cavalieers and Blazers.

 

[Scoe]

1984-85 Chicago Bulls Roster and Stats | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest Chicago Bulls Roster and Stats for 1984-85 on Basketball-Reference.com

www.basketball-reference.com

1985-86 Chicago Bulls Roster and Stats | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest Chicago Bulls Roster and Stats for 1985-86 on Basketball-Reference.com

www.basketball-reference.com

Just look at these rosters in Jordan’s first two seasons who’s winning a championship with this roster.

 

[Scoe]

Kareem was amazing but let’s not discount he had the Big O and Bobby Dandridge who already won a title.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

As far as being one of very, very short list of greatest players ever, I absolutely believe MJ belongs. As far as being without question the best ever, there is only one person from any of the four major north American sports who I believe qualifies and that is Wayne Gretzky.

If you take offense to to that I don't know what to say. I am fully confident that I can support my opinion. I imagine you feel exactly the same way about your opinion.

 

[Martin]

Being a young sportsfan during the Jordan era I hated him. Hated the Knicks. Hated the Lakers, too. Fast forward to the end of the LeBron era. I found myself rooting for the Knicks recently and the Bulls too. Times change. I miss those old teams, throw in the old Pistons too. Players and teams were important to me then, less so now. I remember being surrounded by Yankees fans who loved Jordan too. Guess the Knicks weren’t enough for them. I followed Charlotte for awhile for crying out loud. And not for Jordan. I’ve learned so much more about basketball during the LeBron years than the MJ years so I lean towards LeBron. Nowadays, I just want to watch a competitive and quality basketball game these days. Not near enough. Unless I just watch the wrong ones. No lie next year I’m adopting the Spurs, Portland, and Detroit and Indiana again.