No Joy in Mudville ...

[ctchamps]

That is one hell of a question.

I imagine most of the more rational/reasonable posters would believe he was doing a great job and refer to the difficulty JC had for many years of even cracking the final four and the numerous final four runs K had prior to finally cutting down the nets (hose two were with little debate the greatest coaches of their generation and among the top few ever).

There would be some who would complain that KO was unable to win the big game. In some respects KO is the victim of his prior success.

I'd almost guarantee those two statements would be expressed. They certainly were expressed by a lot of people during JC's run before his first NC.

It was tongue and cheek of course but I would be extremely surprised, even in this most hypothetical construct that has no possibility of being proved that the same posters who are ignoring KO's contribution to the 2014 championship are the one's who would be bitching if the seasons were successful and there were no NCs.

 

[UConnDan97]

Let's use a house as an analogy. You hire an architect, you start building, the general contractor and subcontractors build the house without a hitch, ahead of schedule and under budget. You move in only to learn several years later the foundation had bad concrete.

Or you build a house. Hire an architect, the contractors start working and run into problems, so its back to the architect who revises the plans, the contractors complete the portion of the reworked plans but run into another problem after that's completed, necessitating a repeat of the rework by the architect. It's a much more tedious process than the first example but when it's done, the house is a showcase with no problems.

The first example fits Kansas. The second example fits UConn's last two championships. In an ideal situation we want the first process with the second outcome. But who in their right mind wants the first outcome in order to eliminate the second process.

I'll sum that up in one statement: There is only one team that is truly happy at the end of the year.

We've been truly happy four times in the last 18 seasons. That's 3 more years than Kansas. And that's once with Ollie at the helm. And our roster is bringing in and developing players that give us a good chance to be truly happy again...

 

[Matrim55]

It was tongue and cheek of course but I would be extremely surprised, even in this most hypothetical construct that has no possibility of being proved ...

If 2018 & 2019 recruiting go as I think they will, and the 2016&17 classes develop as I think they will, we actually have a better-than-decent possibility of proving this.

 

[ctchamps]

If 2018 & 2019 recruiting go as I think they will, and the 2016&17 classes develop as I think they will, we actually have a better-than-decent possibility of proving this.

As much as I want to prove this I would give up the opportunity to demonstrate where the flaws really are in order to have great regular seasons and another NC.

As much as I'm calling certain people out recently I don't need to prove anything about them.

 

[Matrim55]

As much as I want to prove this I would give up the opportunity to demonstrate where the flaws really in order to have great regular seasons and another NC.

As much as I'm calling certain people out recently I don't need to prove anything about them.

Agree 100%. I just think our chances of winning 150 games over the next 5 years are better than our chances of winning a 5th national title.

At which point I'm sure the discourse on this board will be delightful.

 

[pj]

Just out of curiosity, what are the behavioral differences between the fans who are okay with losing and the fans who are not okay with losing?

Fans who are OK with losing root for Kentucky. Getting players to the NBA is what matters.

 

[Okafour rings]

"Slide"????

Between 2016 & 2017 we'll have added four top-50 recruits (Gilbert, MAL, Larrier, Durham), three other consensus four-stars (Jackson, Polley, Diarra) and two high-rated 3-stars (Vital, Carleton). And that's before we fill our last two scholarships we have open this spring.

In terms of volume and quality of talent we've had very few back-to-back recruiting classes that are, on paper, as good as these two.

Look more carefully at what I wrote: "NEXT [emphasis added] year is a crucial year because another mediocre record will accelerate the slide in recruiting." The signs are subtle but they are there. I think the current freshman class with 4 ESPN Top 100 players was the beneficial result of the 2014 championship season. The 2017 class only has 1 Top 100 in Ashton-Langford. Looking at our remaining schedule, I see a 13-17 or 14-16 record (losses to SMU, 2 against Cincy, Hou, USF, Mem).

After a season like that, don't you agree that next year will be crucial?

 

[Okafour rings]

Preferences are just that preferences.

My preference: UConn bb team beats every opponent by at least double digits with most nights beating them by 6o points. They continuously go undefeated or nearly undefeated year in and year out winning a slew of NC's resulting in them being number one on the list of NC's. And the only two teams they play in the finals are Duke and Kentucky where they proceed to crush them and the hopes of Dickie V and their fans.

Of course I've described the women's team sans the last part. And there are enough differences in the dynamics of men's bb to recognize the preference I have is unrealistic. But I'm with @Pudge. There is just as much chance things can turn around as there is a chance for a never ending spiral to oblivion.

I can agree that two bad seasons could have a negative impact on future recruiting. But how can you think this year's recruits and next years recruiting are part of a slide in recruiting by our coaches?

Because, as I responded to Matrim, I think the Gilbert/Durham/Jackson/Diarra class was due to the impact of the '14 championship season. Next year's recruits include only MAL as a Top 100 recruit. And the loss of Diallo when he was supposedly 'in the bag' is another warning sign. So I'm projecting out a little bit as the shine of the championship wears off a little with each season and the increasing impact of the 2nd-tier conference affects recruiting as well.

 

[Okafour rings]

Because it's friggin' hard to win it all.

Only UConn and Duke fans don't know this.

Of course I know that. But if we want to be considered as one of the bluebloods of college basketball, that means having strong, Top 20 teams most years, and being in the conversation about teams that have the chance to win it all.

 

[whaler11]

Just want to make sure I understand. The next few classes are going to take UConn from struggling to put away the 209th best team in the country at home back to being relevant nationally?

 

[Okafour rings]

Who wouldn't.
That's an unreal expectation even for Kentucky or Duke. If that is what it takes to satisfy you it must be miserable to be a fan even in good years.

That's not the point I was trying to make. Who do you think I'm talking about, the UConn women's team? The 98-99 team was, in my estimation, the best UConn team of all time. But some 25-win regular seasons, especially while we're in the AAC, would be expected. As a rough comparison, Gonzaga has had 9 straight years of 25+ win seasons in a row in the West Coast Conference. We need to replicate that. Regular season excellence gives us a better chance in the tournament if only for the seedings/matchups.

 

[CL82]

Just want to make sure I understand. The next few classes are going to take UConn from struggling to put away the 209th best team in the country at home back to being relevant nationally?

Less that and more that if we dress more than 6 players we are likely to be an improved team. Adding Gilbert and Larrier is likely to help as well and Diarra couldn't hurt.

 

[mauconnfan]

I grew up a UConn fan in the 90s when any loss was shocking and the whole state would be pissed off the next day. Very sad how okay losing is now.

That says it all. Congrats on being spoiled must suck.

 

[mauconnfan]

Funny the statement "how okay losing is now"? What the hell does that even mean. The people who are supporting KO are not okay with losing, not at all what makes you think any of us would be?

There are so many variables for this season to not be the one in which you doubters and spoiled rotten fans harass KO and the Huskies. The injuries, the inconsistent play of the experienced seniors and even more injuries game-to-game. How can a fan of the Huskies, and I mean this, pike on a scenario like this year? I mean much like the kids are trying to do we should be rallying around this team who is fighting their respective butts off despite being undermanned every time they step on the court. Is the expectation to win 20 there even without a full roster because you need to get real with what's on the court.

Let me say this, I'm guessing many Husky fans like myself have concerns and all kinds of them. The conference affiliation, the recruiting (need better smarter players) and KO and the staff to a point even. although not in the respect of he has one more year to prove it. We are all used to winning the last 27 years plus but many of us never knew this UConn prior either so a little bump in the road is something we can survive and wait for it to play out. People need to relax, there are programs who are really really good and successful who would trade the world to be UConn I promise. We will be back, have patience.

I will go back to a post in the last 2 weeks and I apologize to who wrote it but is questioned someone who threw some local names like Cooley and such up for the job as well as the Northeastern guy. Just think of replacing KO with someone without UConn ties, who has nothing to mention close to a NC or affiliation with other NC's as an assistant. Now think of how well he will recruit, minus Ray Allen, Donny Marshall, Boo Willingham, not to mention Jim Calhoun being around any more? How we doing then, who are we then?

KO is the answer, live with it and he will get better and his teams will get better it's still early in the process for him too.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Let's just say we rewind the clock five years and KO had five season like Kansas only to not get an NC. Which of the posters do you think would be the most vocal about removing KO in that scenario?

I'd trade this for our record over the same period in a heartbeat. And nobody would fire that coach.

2010–11 Bill Self 35–3 14–2 1 Elite Eight
2011–12 Bill Self 32–7 16–2 1 National Runners-up
2012–13 Bill Self 31–6 14–4 T-1 Sweet Sixteen
2013–14 Bill Self 25–10 14–4 1 Third Round
2014–15 Bill Self 27–9 13–5 1 Third Round
2015–16 Bill Self 33–5 15–3 Elite Eight

 

[HuskyHawk]

I'll sum that up in one statement: There is only one team that is truly happy at the end of the year.

We've been truly happy four times in the last 18 seasons. That's 3 more years than Kansas. And that's once with Ollie at the helm. And our roster is bringing in and developing players that give us a good chance to be truly happy again...

I disagree. I am truly happy any time we get to the Sweet 16. After that it is mostly luck and match-ups. I am miserable anytime we fail to make the NCAA tournament. Making it and losing in the first weekends is essentially neutral. That's expected.

 

[mauconnfan]

I disagree. I am truly happy any time we get to the Sweet 16. After that it is mostly luck and match-ups. I am miserable anytime we fail to make the NCAA tournament. Making it and losing in the first weekends is essentially neutral. That's expected.

I've been truly happy a lot, Elite 8's are a great run too, getting to the 2nd weekend always a good year but much depends on expectations too. But for the most part, it's not true only one team is happy.

 

[gtcam]

I'd trade this for our record over the same period in a heartbeat. And nobody would fire that coach.

2010–11 Bill Self 35–3 14–2 1 Elite Eight
2011–12 Bill Self 32–7 16–2 1 National Runners-up
2012–13 Bill Self 31–6 14–4 T-1 Sweet Sixteen
2013–14 Bill Self 25–10 14–4 1 Third Round
2014–15 Bill Self 27–9 13–5 1 Third Round
2015–16 Bill Self 33–5 15–3 Elite Eight

Yes. The record is very very good. But, Self continually has the benefit of a top 4 recruiting class and with that luxury, I strongly feel that there are many coaches out there who would most likely reach more than 1 Final Four and probably win at least 1 NC.
In that time period, UConn has 2 Final Fours and 2 NCs - I wouldn't trade anything for that success - and before any of the dolts out there who love to downplay how, with whom and why KO won in 2014, an NC is an NC - something you can't take away (unless the Squid is the coach)

 

[upstater]

Funny the statement "how okay losing is now"? What the hell does that even mean. The people who are supporting KO are not okay with losing, not at all what makes you think any of us would be?

There are so many variables for this season to not be the one in which you doubters and spoiled rotten fans harass KO and the Huskies. The injuries, the inconsistent play of the experienced seniors and even more injuries game-to-game. How can a fan of the Huskies, and I mean this, pike on a scenario like this year? I mean much like the kids are trying to do we should be rallying around this team who is fighting their respective butts off despite being undermanned every time they step on the court. Is the expectation to win 20 there even without a full roster because you need to get real with what's on the court.

Let me say this, I'm guessing many Husky fans like myself have concerns and all kinds of them. The conference affiliation, the recruiting (need better smarter players) and KO and the staff to a point even. although not in the respect of he has one more year to prove it. We are all used to winning the last 27 years plus but many of us never knew this UConn prior either so a little bump in the road is something we can survive and wait for it to play out. People need to relax, there are programs who are really really good and successful who would trade the world to be UConn I promise. We will be back, have patience.

I will go back to a post in the last 2 weeks and I apologize to who wrote it but is questioned someone who threw some local names like Cooley and such up for the job as well as the Northeastern guy. Just think of replacing KO with someone without UConn ties, who has nothing to mention close to a NC or affiliation with other NC's as an assistant. Now think of how well he will recruit, minus Ray Allen, Donny Marshall, Boo Willingham, not to mention Jim Calhoun being around any more? How we doing then, who are we then?

KO is the answer, live with it and he will get better and his teams will get better it's still early in the process for him too.

I used to go to games with my Dad when I was a teen and younger even. Those were the losing years, early 80s to late 80s, and I'd take the bus down to New Haven (as a kid by myself) meet him at work, we'd take off for Hartford. The Civic Center would be packed, even in losing seasons, and the fans were rabid. It was loud. Even in losing seasons. I loved those teams. To this day, Tim Coles is my all-time favorite Husky.

This is why I see it as you do. The fans supported this program through thick and thin.

 

[upstater]

Yes. The record is very very good. But, Self continually has the benefit of a top 4 recruiting class and with that luxury, I strongly feel that there are many coaches out there who would most likely reach more than 1 Final Four and probably win at least 1 NC.
In that time period, UConn has 2 Final Fours and 2 NCs - I wouldn't trade anything for that success - and before any of the dolts out there who love to downplay how, with whom and why KO won in 2014, an NC is an NC - something you can't take away (unless the Squid is the coach)

99.9% of basketball fans in America would disagree with HuskyHawk on this one.

Let's ask Beakum what he thinks.

 

[QDOG5]

Year → '79 '90 '91 '92 '94 '95 '96 '98 '99 '00 '02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '08 '09 '11 '12 '14 '16
Seed → 5 1 11 9 2 2 1 2 1 5 2 5 2 2 1 4 1 3 9 7 9
It's a tough question. Big winning seasons or national titles. We won 3 times as a 1,2, and 3 seed which means we won a lot and won at the right time. So '14 is the outlier and bottom line we have to win more regular season games and get a higher seed to compete for NC's. That would make all of us happy. Because injuries have turned this season into a dumpster fire I'm ok with giving KO a pass into the 2017-18 season. If we can't do better than a 7 seed next year then UConn may need a change at the top.

 

[HuskyHawk]

99.9% of basketball fans in America would disagree with HuskyHawk on this one.

Let's ask Beakum what he thinks.

Well I inadvertently included 2010-11. The original post said "last five years". So remove 2010-11, and I stand by my view that KU has had a better last 5 years. But I don't value NCs that much more than final four years, and I despise missing the tournament more than anything.

 

[Matrim55]

If we can't do better than a 7 seed next year then UConn may need a change at the top.

A 7-seed is a fringe top 25 team. You're saying that Ollie should be fired if we're a fringe top 25 team next year? Am I understanding that correctly?

 

[mauconnfan]

99.9% of basketball fans in America would disagree with HuskyHawk on this one.

Let's ask Beakum what he thinks.

Yep up those are the days. My friends and I were all single, having a blast at the games but really gave a crap about the Eddie Willimas, Al Fredericks, Willi McCloud, Tim Coles, Gerry Besselink not to mention the guys prior to that at the Field House with my dad. It was fun, it was usually packed with adoring fans who cared for more then the 25 win season. Spoiled fans, yeah all of us have been but omsk have no idea of the other side and we're seen little of it. But to get to the NCAA tourney and beat Colorado in the first game would have been a party in the streets of Hartford back then. Some just don't know that and it's ashame.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Yep up those are the days. My friends and I were all single, having a blast at the games but really gave a crap about the Eddie Willimas, Al Fredericks, Willi McCloud, Tim Coles, Gerry Besselink not to mention the guys prior to that at the Field House with my dad. It was fun, it was usually packed with adoring fans who cared for more then the 25 win season. Spoiled fans, yeah all of us have been but omsk have no idea of the other side and we're seen little of it. But to get to the NCAA tourney and beat Colorado in the first game would have been a party in the streets of Hartford back then. Some just don't know that and it's ashame.

I watched those teams too, starting around 1980. Tim Coles would be the second best player on this team. The pre Big East teams did win regularly. UConn was pretty good in the Yankee conference. That's one of the reasons they got into the Big East. Sure there were some down years before Calhoun righted the ship, but the season we are having right now, especially considering the lower competition level, is the worst in 30 years. That's not something to be concerned about?
Connecticut Huskies Index | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

Let's not forget either that those early teams were trying for only 32 spots in the tournament. Expectations now are and should be different.

 

[UConnDan97]

I disagree. I am truly happy any time we get to the Sweet 16. After that it is mostly luck and match-ups. I am miserable anytime we fail to make the NCAA tournament. Making it and losing in the first weekends is essentially neutral. That's expected.

I gave you a "like", but there is a difference between feeling your team had a great year and being truly happy. There is always that feeling of "what if we did this or that" when you lose in a Sweet 16 game or further in the tourney. It's that feeling that it was right there for us, but for that one or two moments.

The flip side is when you're having a tough year and all of the sudden, you win 11 tournament games in a row. Now that...that is truly friggin' happy...

 

[HuskyHawk]

I gave you a "like", but there is a difference between feeling your team had a great year and being truly happy. There is always that feeling of "what if we did this or that" when you lose in a Sweet 16 game or further in the tourney. It's that feeling that it was right there for us, but for that one or two moments.

The flip side is when you're having a tough year and all of the sudden, you win 11 tournament games in a row. Now that...that is truly friggin' happy...

It's an interesting point. For me...happy in September, October, November, December, January, February, March until....damn....lost a tournament game. Is still a lot of happy. I enjoy the season and the NCAA tournament for more than the end result. Now this year, miserable September, Oct., Nov., Dec., and a less miserable January. Even if they make the Elite 8, this has been way too much misery. The journey to late March is more important to me than what happens in the last game.

Yes, 11 tournament games in a row was a lot of happy crammed into a short time period, made more enjoyable because Kemba was an infectious personality like Magic Johnson. But I enjoyed that season much less than 1998-99 or 2003-04 overall.

 

[gtcam]

Well I inadvertently included 2010-11. The original post said "last five years". So remove 2010-11, and I stand by my view that KU has had a better last 5 years. But I don't value NCs that much more than final four years, and I despise missing the tournament more than anything.

I doesn't matter if you didn't include the 10'11 season.
I would rather win a NC over not. It's what all 300 some odd teams vie for every season and UConn has 4 of them in a 17 year span. I'm trying real hard to find another team who has done that and only come up with UCLA.
Has KU had better years? Yeah if you look at wins/losses. Has KU had more success in the time span? No true success, to me, is winning it all
I'm all for being the winner than the runner-up, unless you are someone that believes everyone should get a trophy - but I doubt that Husky Hawk

 

[HuskyHawk]

I doesn't matter if you didn't include the 10'11 season.
I would rather win a NC over not. It's what all 300 some odd teams vie for every season and UConn has 4 of them in a 17 year span. I'm trying real hard to find another team who has done that and only come up with UCLA.
Has KU had better years? Yeah if you look at wins/losses. Has KU had more success in the time span? No true success, to me, is winning it all
I'm all for being the winner than the runner-up, unless you are someone that believes everyone should get a trophy - but I doubt that Husky Hawk

I'm not a participation trophy guy. But I also don't get some unique amazing satisfaction from winning NCs honestly. Each game is a game. I enjoy watching the games. I enjoy tournament games the most, then league tournament games, then big, important league games, and OOC games against big names, then ordinary league games, and then cupcakes, in that order.

I know I'm an oddball on this score. It is what it is.

Now I will admit that the first NC in 1999 was amazing (as was the first NIT championship when I was a student in Storrs), because I never really imagined it was possible before that. The Red Sox WS win in 2004 ending an 86 year drought, that was special. The first Patriots superbowl win against the Rams was special. But the subsequent titles for all those teams were less meaningful for me. The win over Butler, however fantastic the 11 game run, was pretty boring actually. Several other games in that 11 game run were more enjoyable by far. The "shot" game over Clemson remains my all time favorite UConn game, watching from the downstairs at Challenges across from the Civic Center.

 

[Matrim55]

Yes, 11 tournament games in a row was a lot of happy crammed into a short time period, made more enjoyable because Kemba was an infectious personality like Magic Johnson. But I enjoyed that season much less than 1998-99 or 2003-04 overall.

I hated 2003/04 because of the looming "Did we blow our chance to be legendary?" if we didn't win it. When we cut the nets down it was more relief than jubilation.

I doesn't matter if you didn't include the 10'11 season.
I would rather win a NC over not. It's what all 300 some odd teams vie for every season and UConn has 4 of them in a 17 year span. I'm trying real hard to find another team who has done that and only come up with UCLA.

This is correct.

Anyway, to me I'll be truly happy at the end of this year if all our young guys show legit improvement, and we add two more recruits to our class, and we start signing a couple of good recruits for 2018. I'm trusting the process b/c I believe KO has shown much more as a coach and talent developer than some here want to give him credit for.