New Frank the Tank Post on Conf. Realignment

-
Joined
Jun 9, 2017
Messages
3,838
Likes
7,572
Exactly...there is regionalism...and UConn, Georgetown, et al did not register to the fans in the deep south,,,just as Alabama-Tennessee did not register in the north.

And that is no blame on anyone...it is regional interest..
Ok yes absolutely.

Sorry I was getting defensive, I thought you were attempting to belittle college basketball fandom
 
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
340
Likes
240
It is the primary basketball rivalry in the south, maybe the country...but sure, there are other rivalries...but they are a tremor on the scale compared to major football rivalries.

Yep...I know about the old BE rivalries...and WVU-Pitt and others...
The intensity from Tobacco Road rivalries is as much cultural as it is anything that takes place in Cameron or the Smith Center. Basketball is the field of combat, but the war is larger. I don’t know enough about the inner workings of the state of Alabama or the state of Florida or wherever to say whether that truth carries over there. But my guess would be that football is likely just a stand-in for rural/urban, farmer/doctor, whatever else divide that happens to tribalize us, with the added wrinkle of Duke who brings the whole Yankee/Southern thing into the mix. Also, whereas most SEC states only have the two programs to divvy up football talent, NC is stretched thin with 4 major conference teams plus ECU. For that and other reasons, basketball is more firmly entrenched here but the rivalries are working off the same blueprints whether the ball is round or oblong.

Which then brings us to UConn. Much of the animus that drives college sports rivalries elsewhere in the country simply don’t exist in the Northeast. Pro sports filled the cultural vacuum there, and the top colleges there deemphasized sports in the 50s and I think other regional colleges followed their lead. College talent went elsewhere, and with them went the tv audience and money. So UConn was stuck trying to recreate a rivalry along the lines seen in the South or Midwest but without any of the underpinnings that made the rivalries feel tangible. It’s simply a near impossible task.
 
Joined
Jun 9, 2017
Messages
3,838
Likes
7,572
The intensity from Tobacco Road rivalries is as much cultural as it is anything that takes place in Cameron or the Smith Center. Basketball is the field of combat, but the war is larger. I don’t know enough about the inner workings of the state of Alabama or the state of Florida or wherever to say whether that truth carries over there. But my guess would be that football is likely just a stand-in for rural/urban, farmer/doctor, whatever else divide that happens to tribalize us, with the added wrinkle of Duke who brings the whole Yankee/Southern thing into the mix. Also, whereas most SEC states only have the two programs to divvy up football talent, NC is stretched thin with 4 major conference teams plus ECU. For that and other reasons, basketball is more firmly entrenched here but the rivalries are working off the same blueprints whether the ball is round or oblong.

Which then brings us to UConn. Much of the animus that drives college sports rivalries elsewhere in the country simply don’t exist in the Northeast. Pro sports filled the cultural vacuum there, and the top colleges there deemphasized sports in the 50s and I think other regional colleges followed their lead. College talent went elsewhere, and with them went the tv audience and money. So UConn was stuck trying to recreate a rivalry along the lines seen in the South or Midwest but without any of the underpinnings that made the rivalries feel tangible. It’s simply a near impossible task.
Again, you're talking about Football right?

Because the rivalries in the old Big East in basketball were great.

I grew up in a suburb of Hartford where a solid 25% of my high school graduating class went to UConn. There were also TON of kids that went to Cuse and PC and a number that went to Nova and Georgetown.

Summers were spent in constant trash talk and bickering about basketball.

It's was infuriating to listen to Cuse kids justify their (irrational) sense of superiority and to deal with little brother PC and Nova fans and the arragonce of the Georgetown set.

But boy do I miss it now. And to think this was how I spent my summers just a decade ago.
 
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
340
Likes
240
Again, you're talking about Football right?

Because the rivalries in the old Big East in basketball were great.

I grew up in a suburb of Hartford where a solid 25% of my high school graduating class went to UConn. There were also TON of kids that went to Cuse and PC and a number that went to Nova and Georgetown.

Summers were spent in constant trash talk and bickering about basketball.

It's was infuriating to listen to Cuse kids justify their (irrational) sense of superiority and to deal with little brother PC and Nova fans and the arragonce of the Georgetown set.

But boy do I miss it now. And to think this was how I spent my summers just a decade ago.
I was mostly speaking to the nature of collegiate rivalries regardless of sport. Not to say it means more in some regions but, well, it means more. This isn’t simply an alumni type of thing here on Tobacco Road (and I imagine it’s similar across the South). Being an NC State fan was a personal choice that went beyond David Thompson or whether you ever set foot at the Brickyard. When started, the big state universities in the South divvied up the curriculums and occupations. Agriculture, textiles, and engineering went to one school, lawyers, doctors, and journalists went to another. Being a State fan was as much a frame of mind of the world and yourself as anything that happened in sports. Things have changed somewhat, but the root of the differences is still there and I don’t think there is anything close to it in the Northeast collegiate world.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 9, 2017
Messages
3,838
Likes
7,572
I was mostly speaking to the nature of collegiate rivalries regardless of sport. Not to say it means more in some regions but, well, it means more. This isn’t simply an alumni type of thing here on Tobacco Road (and I imagine it’s similar across the South). Being an NC State fan was a personal choice that went beyond David Thompson or whether you ever set foot at the Brickyard. When started, the big state universities in the South divvied up the curriculums and occupations. Agriculture, textiles, and engineering went to one school, lawyers, doctors, and journalists went to another. Being a State fan was as much a frame of mind of the world and yourself as anything that happened in sports. Things have changed somewhat, but the root of the differences is still there and I don’t think there is anything close to it in the Northeast collegiate world.
I understand what you're saying. I live in the South and I'm married into a big UGA family.

However, if you had ever attended a UConn-Syracuse game, you would've known that was a rivalry. I promise. It's just different.

If you had ever attended the BET at MSG you would have "gotten it"
 
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
340
Likes
240
I understand what you're saying. I live in the South and I'm married into a big UGA family.

However, if you had ever attended a UConn-Syracuse game, you would've known that was a rivalry. I promise. It's just different.

If you had ever attended the BET at MSG you would have "gotten it"
You had great angry debates about teams that played against one another. That’s great. UNC vs State was also about Case vs McGuire and Smith vs Valvano. But there was something more there as well. If the basketball programs had been shut down for 10 years for whatever reason, the animosity would have remained because basketball was merely a symptom not the cause of the rift.
 
Joined
Jun 9, 2017
Messages
3,838
Likes
7,572
You had great angry debates about teams that played against one another. That’s great. UNC vs State was also about Case vs McGuire and Smith vs Valvano. But there was something more there as well. If the basketball programs had been shut down for 10 years for whatever reason, the animosity would have remained because basketball was merely a symptom not the cause of the rift.
The types rivalries are just different, I think we all understand that. But, the rivalries were palpapable nonetheless. I'm not really sure why you're coming here trying to deligitimize the UConn, and old Big East, fan experience.
 
Joined
Jun 9, 2017
Messages
3,838
Likes
7,572
You had great angry debates about teams that played against one another. That’s great. UNC vs State was also about Case vs McGuire and Smith vs Valvano. But there was something more there as well. If the basketball programs had been shut down for 10 years for whatever reason, the animosity would have remained because basketball was merely a symptom not the cause of the rift.
I also think you're missing the meaning that the sport of basketball has in the Northeast, especially to minority and immigrant groups.

Art Heyman vs Larry Brown. You know where the roots of that rivalry are?

Do you know where Jim Valvano was from?
 
Joined
Aug 13, 2013
Messages
4,293
Likes
1,543
I also think you're missing the meaning that the sport of basketball has in the Northeast, especially to minority and immigrant groups.

Art Heyman vs Larry Brown. You know where the roots of that rivalry are?

Do you know where Jim Valvano was from?
It does go two ways...

True...for many southerners, there is much less passion for basketball than football.

And for many northeasterners, there seems to be more passion for basketball.

It's just a regional difference...neither region is necessarily dismissing the interest of the other region, just noting that it is not the same in their region. And thus, one can expect different conference policy decisions and interests.

Different cultural events influenced sports differently based on locale.

New York's public BB courts are famous as the breeding ground for Dr. J and scores of others...but, in my dad's day NY city basketball thrived...not with black players, but with Jewish players.

In the 30's, the New York basketball scene was heavily jewish....one might even make the case for the Jewish players being the start of basketball prominence in the northeast....

An interesting read...

Basketball and the Jews | My Jewish Learning
 
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
340
Likes
240
I actually came to tell billybud that when he was noting that basketball rivalries were different than football rivalries, he was really noting that NE collegiate rivalries are different than Southern collegiate rivalries. That UNC vs State was just as visceral as any SEC rivalry.
 
Joined
Jun 9, 2017
Messages
3,838
Likes
7,572
It does go two ways...

True...for many southerners, there is much less passion for basketball than football.

And for many northeasterners, there seems to be more passion for basketball.

It's just a regional difference...neither region is necessarily dismissing the interest of the other region, just noting that it is not the same in their region. And thus, one can expect different conference policy decisions and interests.

Different cultural events influenced sports differently based on locale.

New York's public BB courts are famous as the breeding ground for Dr. J and scores of others...but, in my dad's day NY city basketball thrived...not with black players, but with Jewish players.

In the 30's, the New York basketball scene was heavily jewish....one might even make the case for the Jewish players being the start of basketball prominence in the northeast....

An interesting read...

Basketball and the Jews | My Jewish Learning
My grandparents, both childern of Jewish immigrants, met while my grandpa was playing basketball with his friends in Bronx Park back in the 30's
 
Joined
Jun 9, 2017
Messages
3,838
Likes
7,572
I actually came to tell billybud that when he was noting that basketball rivalries were different than football rivalries, he was really noting that NE collegiate rivalries are different than Southern collegiate rivalries. That UNC vs State was just as visceral as any SEC rivalry.
Fair enough.
 
Joined
Jun 9, 2017
Messages
3,838
Likes
7,572
I actually came to tell billybud that when he was noting that basketball rivalries were different than football rivalries, he was really noting that NE collegiate rivalries are different than Southern collegiate rivalries. That UNC vs State was just as visceral as any SEC rivalry.
Fair enough.
Even though I know a few UNC people who say they don't think about State at all ;)
 
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
340
Likes
240
I also think you're missing the meaning that the sport of basketball has in the Northeast, especially to minority and immigrant groups.

Art Heyman vs Larry Brown. You know where the roots of that rivalry are?

Do you know where Jim Valvano was from?
And before any of them, McGuire brought his New Yorkers to win a title in Chapel Hill. I get that basketball is important up north and street ball is war. That doesn’t change the fact that southern college rivalries are an ingrained class grudge match that simply has no correlation up north.
 
Joined
Jun 9, 2017
Messages
3,838
Likes
7,572
And before any of them, McGuire brought his New Yorkers to win a title in Chapel Hill. I get that basketball is important up north and street ball is war. That doesn’t change the fact that southern college rivalries are an ingrained class grudge match that simply has no correlation up north.
I'm not talking about "street ball" I'm talking about the best high school basketball being played anywhere at anytime.

You so clearly have never been to a college basketball game outside of the state of North Carolina.
 
Joined
Aug 13, 2013
Messages
4,293
Likes
1,543
Just regional differences...that's all.

Thirty years ago when the movie "Hoosiers" came out, I was surprised that Indiana small town culture and their basketball rivalries and interest mirrored the "Friday Night Lights" football experiences that I had witnessed in the small town south and that my wife grew up with in rural central Texas.

And some micro cultures are not known widely...ex. Many do not know of "the Muck Bowl"...but it is a storied and much followed rivalry in South Florida.

Two small high schools in rural Florida, Pahokee HS against Glades HS is considered one of the premier Florida rivalries.

About 50 players from these two teams have gone on to play in the NFL.

High school football’s greatest rivalry: Muck City

Just regional difference in sports and sports interest...
 
Joined
Aug 13, 2013
Messages
4,293
Likes
1,543
And your perspective changes as you age...the country changes.

When you are my age you are interested in history, maybe because you have witnessed a lot of it...

I am old enough to remember basketball that once looked some different from today... the Celtics when Bob Cousy wore the shorty shorts and ten white guys and Bill Russell, as the lone black, made up the champion team of 56-57.

And in the south, football changed....but after my high school years when we were still segregated. My HS team mates and I went to watch our black high school play...and I saw the future. Although we told each other it was "playground ball", we all knew that we had seen speed and plays that were very unlike our wing T formation and runs to the left and right.
 

SubbaBub

Your stupidity is ruining my country.
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
25,773
Likes
23,286
Tractor pulls aren't as popular in the Northeast either but there are enough college FB fans in CT to represent at a P5 level if we were in a P5 conference. Nearly half the teams in P5 have terrible attendance, what is their excuse?
 
Joined
Jun 9, 2017
Messages
3,838
Likes
7,572
Tractor pulls aren't as popular in the Northeast either but there are enough college FB fans in CT to represent at a P5 level if we were in a P5 conference. Nearly half the teams in P5 have terrible attendance, what is their excuse?
Look, I don't know if you know this but NC State started off as an agricultural school.

You just wouldn't understand.
 
Joined
Aug 13, 2013
Messages
4,293
Likes
1,543
Tractor pulls aren't as popular in the Northeast either but there are enough college FB fans in CT to represent at a P5 level if we were in a P5 conference. Nearly half the teams in P5 have terrible attendance, what is their excuse?

Tractor pulls seem to have a following in the midwest....

The National Tractor Pull Association lists their July-August events in:

Ft. Recovery, Oh... Monroe, Michigan...Mt. Sterling, Illinois...Langford, NY...Waverly, Iowa..Salem, Ill...Sandusky, Ohio..Napoleon, Ohio, Bowling Green, Ohio, Greenville, Ohio, Hudsonville, Michigan...Wellington, Ohio...Canfield, Ohio...Sandwich, Ill...

Those Buckeyes love them some tractors.

Now...Monster Trucks...that's a whole horse of a different hue...you can watch 'em in Stafford Springs, Conn and you can watch 'em in LA...you can see 'em in Nova Scotia and cheer 'em in Green Bay.
 
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Messages
3,803
Likes
1,925
True...for many southerners, there is much less passion for basketball than football.
Tell that to Kentucky, Duke, and UNC basketball crazies. I'd even throw Louisville and Tennesee into that group.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 13, 2013
Messages
4,293
Likes
1,543
Tell that to Kentucky, Duke, and UNC basketball crazies. I'd even throw Louisville into that group.
Not deep south, my friend...

Tobacco Road is basketball....SEC country is more about football...Kentucky is a border state..not really south.

Drop below North Carolina and it is football.
 
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Messages
3,803
Likes
1,925
Not deep south, my friend...

Tobacco Road is basketball....SEC country is more about football...Kentucky is a border state..not really south.

Drop below North Carolina and it is football.
Oh OK, so you mean't "deep Southerners". Well thanks for clarifying your original statement mf. (my friend)
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
1,500
Likes
982
Just regional differences...that's all.

Thirty years ago when the movie "Hoosiers" came out, I was surprised that Indiana small town culture and their basketball rivalries and interest mirrored the "Friday Night Lights" football experiences that I had witnessed in the small town south and that my wife grew up with in rural central Texas.

And some micro cultures are not known widely...ex. Many do not know of "the Muck Bowl"...but it is a storied and much followed rivalry in South Florida.

Two small high schools in rural Florida, Pahokee HS against Glades HS is considered one of the premier Florida rivalries.

About 50 players from these two teams have gone on to play in the NFL.

High school football’s greatest rivalry: Muck City

Just regional difference in sports and sports interest...
That's as good as it gets right there when it comes to rivalries.
 
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
3,440
Likes
3,098
That's as good as it gets right there when it comes to rivalries.
I don’t know about a lack of football rivalry in the North
They apparently forgot about the Lower Naugatuck area.
I was at my Nephew’s Pop Warner game years ago ,when he was playing for Ansonia against a Shelton. The game was being played in a driving rainstorm and heavy wind .
At the half the referee from Naugatuck was talking to a guy near me .
He said when he got up early that morning to get dressed for the game his wife told him he was wasting his time ,no one was crazy enough to play football in such awful weather.
Then he he told her it was Ansonia vs Shelton, she replied “what time will you be home for lunch.”
 

Top