New Frank the Tank Post on Conf. Realignment

[Guapo]

Sure. How do they view northern schools commitment/prowess in BB and FB?

They know that UConn is a good basketball school, they just don't care.

 

[billybud]

They know that UConn is a good basketball school, they just don't care.

That pretty much nails the deep south....in the ACC, the fact that Duke and UNC can play good basketball doesn't mean much south of Tobacco Road.

Folks down here do know that UConn, like Duke and UNC , is a good basketball school.

And folks do support other sports...but football is the passion base of most deep south ACC programs and certainly the SEC.

 

[billybud]

Part of the deep south's tradition of college football fandom goes back 60 years or so.

When I was a boy, there was no pro football team south of Washington nor baseball team, nor basketball team. We followed college ball. The Bear at Bama against Shug Jordan at Auburn, etc. The radio was the medium for a lot of fandom....listening to the games. Fewer were televised.

And the south was far more rural 60 years ago...and high school football was a local passion. In many towns, Friday nights are still set aside for high school football games...and crowds show up to watch under the lights.

But, the south isn't that south any longer. And in-migration has changed parts of the south and added additional interests...but not in the hinterlands of Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, Tennessee, South Carolina or North Florida.

 

[Guapo]

Part of the deep south's tradition of college football fandom goes back 60 years or so.

When I was a boy, there was no pro football team south of Washington nor baseball team, nor basketball team. We followed college ball. The Bear at Bama against Shug Jordan at Auburn, etc. The radio was the medium for a lot of fandom....listening to the games. Fewer were televised.

And the south was far more rural 60 years ago...and high school football was a local passion. In many towns, Friday nights are still set aside for high school football games...and crowds show up to watch under the lights.

But, the south isn't that south any longer. And in-migration has changed parts of the south and added additional interests...but not in the hinterlands of Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, Tennessee, South Carolina or North Florida.

Have you been to Connecticut before?

 

[billybud]

Have you been to Connecticut before?

Not really...passed thru once on the way to Boston...but you know that you don't get a feel for a state from the super slab.

I spent some years in Madison, Wisconsin. And I acted as a go between with my Michigan grad (Wisconsin raised) father's family in Wisconsin and my mom's Alabama family. And in the 50's, it was akin to Abie's Irish Rose.

 

[Guapo]

Not really...passed thru once on the way to Boston...but you know that you don't get a feel for a state from the super slab.

I spent some years in Madison, Wisconsin. And I acted as a go between with my Michigan grad (Wisconsin raised) father's family in Wisconsin and my mom's Alabama family. And in the 50's, it was akin to Abie's Irish Rose.

I think you'd be surprised by how rural the area around UConn is.

My wife, who is from rural Georgia, was shocked by how isolated Storrs is.

Anyway, I was going to wax poetic about the role of UConn basketball in the state and why it's such a big deal but this video does a good job of saying what I would say.

Basically, for being such a small state, the variations in life style are immense. The experience of growing up as an Italian kid in the South End of Hartford varies greatly from growing up a Swamp Yankee on a farm somewhere in Windham County. On top of all that, there's the overarching cultural split between the part of the state that's "more New York" and the part that's solidly New England.

UConn basketball is the sole unifying thread in the state. Without it, the state only exists as a place for people to drive through on their way to Boston.

 

[billybud]

The deep south has been defined by its football rivalries...and particularly those in state..

Alabama vs Auburn

FSU vs Florida and Miami

Clemson vs South Carolina

Are there any basketball rivalries outside of UNC and Duke?

 

[Guapo]

The deep south has been defined by its football rivalries...and particularly those in state..

Alabama vs Auburn

FSU vs Florida and Miami

Clemson vs South Carolina

Are there any basketball rivalries outside of UNC and Duke?

In the Deep South or around the country?

 

[billybud]

In the Deep South or around the country?

Never thought of UConn as having a main football rival...

Nor any northeastern team, for that matter...not in the sense of a Alabama-Auburn, FSU-Florida, UNC-NC State, etc.

Never thought of UConn as one of those states like Florida, Texas, Georgia where Friday nights at the high school stadium are the main social event of the season.

Other areas of the country do have their rivalries, particularly like Ohio state-Michigan and Texas-Oklahoma...but does Stanford-USC really have the passion of a Georgia-Florida?

 

[billybud]

Did you see the old Big East as defined by football rivalries?

 

[Guapo]

Never thought of UConn as having a main football rival...

Nor any northeastern team, for that matter...not in the sense of a Alabama-Auburn, FSU-Florida, UNC-NC State, etc.

Never thought of UConn as one of those states like Florida, Texas, Georgia where Friday nights at the high school stadium are the main social event of the season.

Other areas of the country do have their rivalries, particularly like Ohio state-Michigan and Texas-Oklahoma...but does Stanford-USC really have the passion of a Georgia-Florida?

No, UConn definitely doesn't have football rivalries like that; but, I was asking if you thought UNC-Duke was the only college basketball rivalry.

 

[CL82]

Did you see the old Big East as defined by football rivalries?

UMass and URI were the big Yankee Conference rivals. Not comparing the quality of play or even intensity, but those were the guys we loved to hate back in the day. Part of UConn problem is that it has continued to move as sports evolved and our traditional rivals have not.

 

[billybud]

No, UConn definitely doesn't have football rivalries like that; but, I was asking if you thought UNC-Duke was the only college basketball rivalry.

It is the primary basketball rivalry in the south, maybe the country...but sure, there are other rivalries...but they are a tremor on the scale compared to major football rivalries.

Yep...I know about the old BE rivalries...and WVU-Pitt and others...

 

[Guapo]

It is the primary basketball rivalry in the south, maybe the country...but sure, there are other rivalries...but they are a tremor on the scale compared to major football rivalries.

Yep...I know about the old BE rivalries...and WVU-Pitt and others...

Not to the schools and fan bases involved.

 

[billybud]

Not to the schools and fan bases involved.

Exactly...there is regionalism...and UConn, Georgetown, et al did not register to the fans in the deep south,,,just as Alabama-Tennessee did not register in the north.

And that is no blame on anyone...it is regional interest..

 

[Guapo]

Exactly...there is regionalism...and UConn, Georgetown, et al did not register to the fans in the deep south,,,just as Alabama-Tennessee did not register in the north.

And that is no blame on anyone...it is regional interest..

Ok yes absolutely.

Sorry I was getting defensive, I thought you were attempting to belittle college basketball fandom

 

[JeepCSC]

It is the primary basketball rivalry in the south, maybe the country...but sure, there are other rivalries...but they are a tremor on the scale compared to major football rivalries.

Yep...I know about the old BE rivalries...and WVU-Pitt and others...

The intensity from Tobacco Road rivalries is as much cultural as it is anything that takes place in Cameron or the Smith Center. Basketball is the field of combat, but the war is larger. I don’t know enough about the inner workings of the state of Alabama or the state of Florida or wherever to say whether that truth carries over there. But my guess would be that football is likely just a stand-in for rural/urban, farmer/doctor, whatever else divide that happens to tribalize us, with the added wrinkle of Duke who brings the whole Yankee/Southern thing into the mix. Also, whereas most SEC states only have the two programs to divvy up football talent, NC is stretched thin with 4 major conference teams plus ECU. For that and other reasons, basketball is more firmly entrenched here but the rivalries are working off the same blueprints whether the ball is round or oblong.

Which then brings us to UConn. Much of the animus that drives college sports rivalries elsewhere in the country simply don’t exist in the Northeast. Pro sports filled the cultural vacuum there, and the top colleges there deemphasized sports in the 50s and I think other regional colleges followed their lead. College talent went elsewhere, and with them went the tv audience and money. So UConn was stuck trying to recreate a rivalry along the lines seen in the South or Midwest but without any of the underpinnings that made the rivalries feel tangible. It’s simply a near impossible task.

 

[Guapo]

The intensity from Tobacco Road rivalries is as much cultural as it is anything that takes place in Cameron or the Smith Center. Basketball is the field of combat, but the war is larger. I don’t know enough about the inner workings of the state of Alabama or the state of Florida or wherever to say whether that truth carries over there. But my guess would be that football is likely just a stand-in for rural/urban, farmer/doctor, whatever else divide that happens to tribalize us, with the added wrinkle of Duke who brings the whole Yankee/Southern thing into the mix. Also, whereas most SEC states only have the two programs to divvy up football talent, NC is stretched thin with 4 major conference teams plus ECU. For that and other reasons, basketball is more firmly entrenched here but the rivalries are working off the same blueprints whether the ball is round or oblong.

Which then brings us to UConn. Much of the animus that drives college sports rivalries elsewhere in the country simply don’t exist in the Northeast. Pro sports filled the cultural vacuum there, and the top colleges there deemphasized sports in the 50s and I think other regional colleges followed their lead. College talent went elsewhere, and with them went the tv audience and money. So UConn was stuck trying to recreate a rivalry along the lines seen in the South or Midwest but without any of the underpinnings that made the rivalries feel tangible. It’s simply a near impossible task.

Again, you're talking about Football right?

Because the rivalries in the old Big East in basketball were great.

I grew up in a suburb of Hartford where a solid 25% of my high school graduating class went to UConn. There were also TON of kids that went to Cuse and PC and a number that went to Nova and Georgetown.

Summers were spent in constant trash talk and bickering about basketball.

It's was infuriating to listen to Cuse kids justify their (irrational) sense of superiority and to deal with little brother PC and Nova fans and the arragonce of the Georgetown set.

But boy do I miss it now. And to think this was how I spent my summers just a decade ago.

 

[JeepCSC]

Again, you're talking about Football right?

Because the rivalries in the old Big East in basketball were great.

I grew up in a suburb of Hartford where a solid 25% of my high school graduating class went to UConn. There were also TON of kids that went to Cuse and PC and a number that went to Nova and Georgetown.

Summers were spent in constant trash talk and bickering about basketball.

It's was infuriating to listen to Cuse kids justify their (irrational) sense of superiority and to deal with little brother PC and Nova fans and the arragonce of the Georgetown set.

But boy do I miss it now. And to think this was how I spent my summers just a decade ago.

I was mostly speaking to the nature of collegiate rivalries regardless of sport. Not to say it means more in some regions but, well, it means more. This isn’t simply an alumni type of thing here on Tobacco Road (and I imagine it’s similar across the South). Being an NC State fan was a personal choice that went beyond David Thompson or whether you ever set foot at the Brickyard. When started, the big state universities in the South divvied up the curriculums and occupations. Agriculture, textiles, and engineering went to one school, lawyers, doctors, and journalists went to another. Being a State fan was as much a frame of mind of the world and yourself as anything that happened in sports. Things have changed somewhat, but the root of the differences is still there and I don’t think there is anything close to it in the Northeast collegiate world.

 

[Guapo]

I was mostly speaking to the nature of collegiate rivalries regardless of sport. Not to say it means more in some regions but, well, it means more. This isn’t simply an alumni type of thing here on Tobacco Road (and I imagine it’s similar across the South). Being an NC State fan was a personal choice that went beyond David Thompson or whether you ever set foot at the Brickyard. When started, the big state universities in the South divvied up the curriculums and occupations. Agriculture, textiles, and engineering went to one school, lawyers, doctors, and journalists went to another. Being a State fan was as much a frame of mind of the world and yourself as anything that happened in sports. Things have changed somewhat, but the root of the differences is still there and I don’t think there is anything close to it in the Northeast collegiate world.

I understand what you're saying. I live in the South and I'm married into a big UGA family.

However, if you had ever attended a UConn-Syracuse game, you would've known that was a rivalry. I promise. It's just different.

If you had ever attended the BET at MSG you would have "gotten it"

 

[JeepCSC]

I understand what you're saying. I live in the South and I'm married into a big UGA family.

However, if you had ever attended a UConn-Syracuse game, you would've known that was a rivalry. I promise. It's just different.

If you had ever attended the BET at MSG you would have "gotten it"

You had great angry debates about teams that played against one another. That’s great. UNC vs State was also about Case vs McGuire and Smith vs Valvano. But there was something more there as well. If the basketball programs had been shut down for 10 years for whatever reason, the animosity would have remained because basketball was merely a symptom not the cause of the rift.

 

[Guapo]

You had great angry debates about teams that played against one another. That’s great. UNC vs State was also about Case vs McGuire and Smith vs Valvano. But there was something more there as well. If the basketball programs had been shut down for 10 years for whatever reason, the animosity would have remained because basketball was merely a symptom not the cause of the rift.

The types rivalries are just different, I think we all understand that. But, the rivalries were palpapable nonetheless. I'm not really sure why you're coming here trying to deligitimize the UConn, and old Big East, fan experience.

 

[Guapo]

You had great angry debates about teams that played against one another. That’s great. UNC vs State was also about Case vs McGuire and Smith vs Valvano. But there was something more there as well. If the basketball programs had been shut down for 10 years for whatever reason, the animosity would have remained because basketball was merely a symptom not the cause of the rift.

I also think you're missing the meaning that the sport of basketball has in the Northeast, especially to minority and immigrant groups.

Art Heyman vs Larry Brown. You know where the roots of that rivalry are?

Do you know where Jim Valvano was from?

 

[billybud]

I also think you're missing the meaning that the sport of basketball has in the Northeast, especially to minority and immigrant groups.

Art Heyman vs Larry Brown. You know where the roots of that rivalry are?

Do you know where Jim Valvano was from?

It does go two ways...

True...for many southerners, there is much less passion for basketball than football.

And for many northeasterners, there seems to be more passion for basketball.

It's just a regional difference...neither region is necessarily dismissing the interest of the other region, just noting that it is not the same in their region. And thus, one can expect different conference policy decisions and interests.

Different cultural events influenced sports differently based on locale.

New York's public BB courts are famous as the breeding ground for Dr. J and scores of others...but, in my dad's day NY city basketball thrived...not with black players, but with Jewish players.

In the 30's, the New York basketball scene was heavily jewish....one might even make the case for the Jewish players being the start of basketball prominence in the northeast....

An interesting read...

Basketball and the Jews | My Jewish Learning

 

[JeepCSC]

I actually came to tell billybud that when he was noting that basketball rivalries were different than football rivalries, he was really noting that NE collegiate rivalries are different than Southern collegiate rivalries. That UNC vs State was just as visceral as any SEC rivalry.

 

[Guapo]

It does go two ways...

True...for many southerners, there is much less passion for basketball than football.

And for many northeasterners, there seems to be more passion for basketball.

It's just a regional difference...neither region is necessarily dismissing the interest of the other region, just noting that it is not the same in their region. And thus, one can expect different conference policy decisions and interests.

Different cultural events influenced sports differently based on locale.

New York's public BB courts are famous as the breeding ground for Dr. J and scores of others...but, in my dad's day NY city basketball thrived...not with black players, but with Jewish players.

In the 30's, the New York basketball scene was heavily jewish....one might even make the case for the Jewish players being the start of basketball prominence in the northeast....

An interesting read...

Basketball and the Jews | My Jewish Learning

My grandparents, both childern of Jewish immigrants, met while my grandpa was playing basketball with his friends in Bronx Park back in the 30's

 

[Guapo]

I actually came to tell billybud that when he was noting that basketball rivalries were different than football rivalries, he was really noting that NE collegiate rivalries are different than Southern collegiate rivalries. That UNC vs State was just as visceral as any SEC rivalry.

Fair enough.

 

[Guapo]

I actually came to tell billybud that when he was noting that basketball rivalries were different than football rivalries, he was really noting that NE collegiate rivalries are different than Southern collegiate rivalries. That UNC vs State was just as visceral as any SEC rivalry.

Fair enough.

Even though I know a few UNC people who say they don't think about State at all

 

[JeepCSC]

I also think you're missing the meaning that the sport of basketball has in the Northeast, especially to minority and immigrant groups.

Art Heyman vs Larry Brown. You know where the roots of that rivalry are?

Do you know where Jim Valvano was from?

And before any of them, McGuire brought his New Yorkers to win a title in Chapel Hill. I get that basketball is important up north and street ball is war. That doesn’t change the fact that southern college rivalries are an ingrained class grudge match that simply has no correlation up north.

 

[Guapo]

And before any of them, McGuire brought his New Yorkers to win a title in Chapel Hill. I get that basketball is important up north and street ball is war. That doesn’t change the fact that southern college rivalries are an ingrained class grudge match that simply has no correlation up north.

I'm not talking about "street ball" I'm talking about the best high school basketball being played anywhere at anytime.

You so clearly have never been to a college basketball game outside of the state of North Carolina.