NBA playoffs

[whosurdaddy2720]

Are you seriously comparing Kobe's defense to Hakeem's, or am I just misreading you?

Those All-Defense teams aren't particularly meaningful in comparison...

Remember, too, that Hakeem played a position where only one guy could get All Defense, and he played in the same era as Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, and Mutombo. Despite that he had more All Defense than all of them, and won DPOY twice (when, frankly, he is almost certainly the best defensive player in the post-merger era...).

I mean the stat is the stat...

Even if I concede that point, are you saying Kobe is a bad defense player?

So a seven-footer blocking more shots is somehow a detriment to Kobe's case?

 

[superjohn]

When LeBron wants to play exceptional defense, he can. Jordan just did it all the time.

Early-2000s Kobe was an exceptional defender, but he coasted into a ton of all-defensive teams because of reputation. And, to be clear, he was not in the same league as Jordan.

For wing defenders I've seen, it really is Jordan, Kawhi, Pippen, and Draymond. Rodman is also in that top level, but it's hard to figure out where, exactly to place him because he could guard Bird or Robinson.

Hakeem is sort of in a class by himself for centers I've seen. He could just do so so much. I'd say he's the best defender I've ever seen.

Wild stat, nobody else even comes close to accomplishing this in a season. Obviously there's more to defense than steals and blocks but this shows how ridiculous their versatility was defensively...

 

[Matrim55]

When LeBron wants to play exceptional defense, he can. Jordan just did it all the time.

See, I always felt like Jordan's defense was overrated. Ben Taylor did a great job of using data and film to illustrate as much a few years ago:

Backpicks GOAT: #2 Michael Jordan

Key Stats and Trends Unmatched combination of scoring volume, efficiency and low turnovers Struggled with shot selection in ’80s before leading offensive dynasty during the ’90s Good de…

thinkingbasketball.net

The three best wing defenders I've ever seen were Pippen, Kawhi and LeBron. And for a one-series performance, watching what LeBron did to Derrick Rose in the 2011 East finals probably stands alone. Nobody in the world could stay in front of Rose at that point, and Rose went for 28 points in game 1 on 10-for-22 shooting.

Spo switched LeBron onto him for game 2, and Rose shot 32-for-98 the rest of the way with 15 turnovers in four games.

Peak LeBron was a monster.

 

[Matrim55]

I always was sour on Kobe as a player and guy, and got competitive about him vs. Ray. Your stats and takes back up my theories.

I used to say the same things about Ray in the mid 2000s when Kobe became a superstar because of LA, Shaq and his own self-promotion. Ray quietly balled with Lewis and Ridnour his best teammates.

Here's one that still keeps me up at night: What happens if Minnesota doesn't make that idiotic draft day trade for Marbury and Ray gets to spend 10-15 years with KG?

Those two guys were perfect together, and so easy to add pieces around them.

 

[HuskyHawk]

When LeBron wants to play exceptional defense, he can. Jordan just did it all the time.

Early-2000s Kobe was an exceptional defender, but he coasted into a ton of all-defensive teams because of reputation. And, to be clear, he was not in the same league as Jordan.

For wing defenders I've seen, it really is Jordan, Kawhi, Pippen, and Draymond. Rodman is also in that top level, but it's hard to figure out where, exactly to place him because he could guard Bird or Robinson.

Hakeem is sort of in a class by himself for centers I've seen. He could just do so so much. I'd say he's the best defender I've ever seen.

Michael Cooper has entered the chat.

 

[superjohn]

Michael Cooper has entered the chat.

Not at either Jordan or Pippen's level. He was good at ball denial like Bruce Bowen and could put some clamps on you but he simply didn't have the defensive versatility of Jordan or Pippen.

 

[Mr. French]

Lots of smart takes and people I tend to agree with here, just saying HATERS!

Here's one that still keeps me up at night: What happens if Minnesota doesn't make that idiotic draft day trade for Marbury and Ray gets to spend 10-15 years with KG?

Those two guys were perfect together, and so easy to add pieces around them.

At the time they just drafted Donyell too. I remember being OVER THE MOON the Wolves took him, I liked their unis and Donyell and Ray were my 2 favorites. Then they trade him.

In fact, to come full circle, I was a Hornets and Huskies fan, so I would have become an even bigger Wolves fan…but had Kobe not demanded his way out of Charlotte an hour later, I’d prob be a huge Kobe fan. That was his first strike for me.

 

[kobe]

Complain all you want but the Cincinnati Royals are never coming back.

I cannot even imagine how humiliating it must be to lose a franchise to Kansas City (and Omaha).

hartford whalers, ever heard of em? #povertybums

 

[FfldCntyFan]

hartford whalers, ever heard of em? #povertybums

Yes I have. I even remember their WHA days. Saw them play a team called the Stingers once. Sadly that market wasn't sufficient to make the cut when the NHL absorbed a few WHA teams.

 

[HitDog]

Donovan Mitchell out for tonight’s game.

 

[JayKoz]

hartford whalers, ever heard of em? #povertybums

I usually laugh at some of your posts but this is simply going too far.

 

[aceboon]

the year of the calf strain, guys going down left and right.

 

[tzznandrew]

I mean the stat is the stat...

Even if I concede that point, are you saying Kobe is a bad defense player?

So a seven-footer blocking more shots is somehow a detriment to Kobe's case?

If you think Hakeem's defense was limited to his shot blocking, um... you need to watch some video my man. He's everything you would want from a big.

Kobe was a very good defender. The advanced metrics cut through the hype. Despite his longevity, Kobe is only 45th in Defensive WS and he was only in the Top 15 once for Defensive Rating.

Hakeem is 4th in career defensive Win Shares, led the league multiple times in Defensive Win Shares, Defensive Plus/Minus, and Defensive Rating.

We can have a conversation of Hakeem vs. Kobe (I tend towards Hakeem), but defense is not the argument for Kobe. Give him a million All-Defense selections, I don't care. Watch the games. Since the merger, since Bill Russell, Hakeem is the best defender.

 

[superjohn]

If you think Hakeem's defense was limited to his shot blocking, um... you need to watch some video my man. He's everything you would want from a big.

Kobe was a very good defender. The advanced metrics cut through the hype. Despite his longevity, Kobe is only 45th in Defensive WS and he was only in the Top 15 once for Defensive Rating.

Hakeem is 4th in career defensive Win Shares, led the league multiple times in Defensive Win Shares, Defensive Plus/Minus, and Defensive Rating.

We can have a conversation of Hakeem vs. Kobe (I tend towards Hakeem), but defense is not the argument for Kobe. Give him a million All-Defense selections, I don't care. Watch the games. Since the merger, since Bill Russell, Hakeem is the best defender.

Hakeem was cat quick, dude would rip guards all the time and take it coast to coast.

 

[tzznandrew]

See, I always felt like Jordan's defense was overrated. Ben Taylor did a great job of using data and film to illustrate as much a few years ago:

Backpicks GOAT: #2 Michael Jordan

Key Stats and Trends Unmatched combination of scoring volume, efficiency and low turnovers Struggled with shot selection in ’80s before leading offensive dynasty during the ’90s Good de…

thinkingbasketball.net

The three best wing defenders I've ever seen were Pippen, Kawhi and LeBron. And for a one-series performance, watching what LeBron did to Derrick Rose in the 2011 East finals probably stands alone. Nobody in the world could stay in front of Rose at that point, and Rose went for 28 points in game 1 on 10-for-22 shooting.

Spo switched LeBron onto him for game 2, and Rose shot 32-for-98 the rest of the way with 15 turnovers in four games.

Peak LeBron was a monster.

All I'll say about Jordan's defense is look at how he turned around the ******* Wizards' defense in the games he played. He was a very good on-ball defender who absolutely gambled more than he needed to because of his elite athleticism. It led to more steals and blocks combined than any other guard (I believe). He wasn't as good a defender as prime-Pippen or prime-Kawhi, but no perimeter defender is.

LeBron only really tried to play defense like one year (2011-2012) and he lead the league in defensive win shares. Tells you about his ceiling, which is up there with any player ever. But, just like how people feel like he was robbed of MVPs...when you look at his regular-season on the court performance...he sort of mailed it in a lot. And his post-season defensive numbers are very good, not great.

 

[superjohn]

All I'll say about Jordan's defense is look at how he turned around the ******* Wizards' defense in the games he played. He was a very good on-ball defender who absolutely gambled more than he needed to because of his elite athleticism. It led to more steals and blocks combined than any other guard (I believe). He wasn't as good a defender as prime-Pippen or prime-Kawhi, but no perimeter defender is.

LeBron only really tried to play defense like one year (2011-2012) and he lead the league in defensive win shares. Tells you about his ceiling, which is up there with any player ever. But, just like how people feel like he was robbed of MVPs...when you look at his regular-season on the court performance...he sort of mailed it in a lot. And his post-season defensive numbers are very good, not great.

Jordan and Pippen are the two best perimeter defenders ever. Pippen was longer and maybe slightly more versatile because of it but Jordan was faster and the better on ball defender. He took on even more of the tough assignments and had the edge as a one on one defender, he also helped better than Pippen and came up with a lot more blocks and steals than him.

 

[Yanksrock615]

Faulty stat.

He also has significantly more games and attempts than pretty much anyone else on that list. Why should he get dinged for being in more big games and having the guts to take the big shot more than anyone else?

This is a perfect example of how stats and metrics have gone too far. I'm not totally against them but the eye test still should carry some weight. Kobe impacted the game and carried teams like few others in the history of the game.

Kobe wasn’t even the best player on the team in most of his championships lmao.

 

[Yanksrock615]

Kobe and Lebron are probably the two most overrated defensive players of my lifetime. Hakeem and Jordan are the two best defensive players I've ever seen.

Bro really said MJ one of the best defensive players he has ever seen

 

[Yanksrock615]

See, I always felt like Jordan's defense was overrated. Ben Taylor did a great job of using data and film to illustrate as much a few years ago:

Backpicks GOAT: #2 Michael Jordan

Key Stats and Trends Unmatched combination of scoring volume, efficiency and low turnovers Struggled with shot selection in ’80s before leading offensive dynasty during the ’90s Good de…

thinkingbasketball.net

The three best wing defenders I've ever seen were Pippen, Kawhi and LeBron. And for a one-series performance, watching what LeBron did to Derrick Rose in the 2011 East finals probably stands alone. Nobody in the world could stay in front of Rose at that point, and Rose went for 28 points in game 1 on 10-for-22 shooting.

Spo switched LeBron onto him for game 2, and Rose shot 32-for-98 the rest of the way with 15 turnovers in four games.

Peak LeBron was a monster.

Thanks for sharing this video, I was going to when this guy said MJ was the best defender he has ever seen. 90s propaganda on MJ has really brainwashed a whole era it is insane.

 

[Yanksrock615]

All I'll say about Jordan's defense is look at how he turned around the ******* Wizards' defense in the games he played. He was a very good on-ball defender who absolutely gambled more than he needed to because of his elite athleticism. It led to more steals and blocks combined than any other guard (I believe). He wasn't as good a defender as prime-Pippen or prime-Kawhi, but no perimeter defender is.

LeBron only really tried to play defense like one year (2011-2012) and he lead the league in defensive win shares. Tells you about his ceiling, which is up there with any player ever. But, just like how people feel like he was robbed of MVPs...when you look at his regular-season on the court performance...he sort of mailed it in a lot. And his post-season defensive numbers are very good, not great.

Saying Lebron tried to play defense 1 year shows how much NBA you have watched these last 20 years.

 

[tzznandrew]

Saying Lebron tried to play defense 1 year shows how much NBA you have watched these last 20 years.

One full season.

Certainly did so in multiple post-seasons.

But the stats don't lie. His regular season defensive stats are mid, despite the fact that when he wanted to defend he was absolutely exceptional.

 

[REB1094]

Celtics are in a fight with the Donovan Mitchell-less Cavs. They can look like runaway champions one game, and barely look like a playoff team the next. Really strange team

 

[Matrim55]

Celtics are in a fight with the Donovan Mitchell-less Cavs. They can look like runaway champions one game, and barely look like a playoff team the next. Really strange team

Need some big East toughness. Draft Karaban with our first round pick and Tristen with our second and back-to-back chips are guaranteed.

 

[superjohn]

One full season.

Certainly did so in multiple post-seasons.

But the stats don't lie. His regular season defensive stats are mid, despite the fact that when he wanted to defend he was absolutely exceptional.

He got outplayed by Jason Terry in the NBA finals.

 

[whosurdaddy2720]

Kobe wasn’t even the best player on the team in most of his championships lmao.

He was undoubtedly the best player on two of his championship teams which is more than Moses Malone and Dr J. Just as many as Hakeem but by the logic on this thread you’d think he was a scrub compared to them