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NBA playoffs

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We could have a Boston-NY ECF matchup in NBA and NHL. It’s amazing how similar the Celtics and Rangers are too each other. Overwhelming favorites, their seasons are a failure if they don’t win it all.

Celtics might have to go the UConn route, Rangers on the other hand are comfortable in close games but could dominate a team. Granted it’s hockey so games will be closer. The Canes are a very good team and it’s crazy how much better the Rangers look, still gotta end the series though.
 
nomar said:
The Celtics do not have a guy who has proven he can take over a game in clutch playoff situations. That's a fact.

It's also a fact that Rip Hamilton played for the last team who won a title without a guy like that.

I didn't say the Celtics can't win; they're the favorites for a reason. What I said was it's concerning that we can't rely on Tatum to put the team on its back if we need him to. Hopefully we go the UConn route and just demolish everyone. Or maybe they move the ball and find the open guy in those situations, but that's easier said than done in the playoffs. Tatum will have lots of isos in clutch situations.

Not even sure what you're arguing with. Yeah we have a lot of guys who can score. No, none of them has proven he can consistently do it in the playoffs when it counts, or else these guys would already have a ring. This is by far their deepest team, particular with Porzingis back, so they can probably get past it.

And I don't think UConn had an alpha as I'm describing it. (Think Ray, Donyell,
RIp, Caron.) They just didn't need one.
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Neither of those are facts. They are just your opinion. Tatum has absolutely taken over games in the playoffs (as has Brown). He had a 50 point game in a key win vs the Nets in 2021. He's dominated multiple different playoff games in his career. He had a triple double a few games ago.

Until last year, Jokic hadn't led his team to a title either. At some point neither had MJ or LeBron or Steph Curry or Durant or Tim Duncan. The last team to win a title without a dominant offensive talent was Toronto. But it shouldn't be surprising that teams without good players don't win NBA titles. This whole "alpha" concept is silly. It's a misguided throwback to the Jordan era. Look at the GS titles and you'll see that Curry, Green, Durant led them in scoring in different series.

For every time some supposed "alpha" took over a game there's another time when they tried, missed a ton of shots and their team lost. You don't want a guy doing that, ever. It's crappy basketball. It's what Tatum (and Brown) did when he was younger. He has matured and realized that approach doesn't lead to winning.
 
nomar said:
The Celtics do not have a guy who has proven he can take over a game in clutch playoff situations. That's a fact.

It's also a fact that Rip Hamilton played for the last team who won a title without a guy like that.

I didn't say the Celtics can't win; they're the favorites for a reason. What I said was it's concerning that we can't rely on Tatum to put the team on its back if we need him to. Hopefully we go the UConn route and just demolish everyone. Or maybe they move the ball and find the open guy in those situations, but that's easier said than done in the playoffs. Tatum will have lots of isos in clutch situations.

Not even sure what you're arguing with. Yeah we have a lot of guys who can score. No, none of them has proven he can consistently do it in the playoffs when it counts, or else these guys would already have a ring. This is by far their deepest team, particular with Porzingis back, so they can probably get past it.

And I don't think UConn had an alpha as I'm describing it. (Think Ray, Donyell,
RIp, Caron.) They just didn't need one.
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Game 6 on the road vs the defending champs, down 3-2 and facing elimination

 
Shaq is a real turd for this

nypost.com

Shaquille O’Neal openly tells Nikola Jokic that someone else should have won NBA MVP

Shaquille O’Neal is never afraid to share his opinion, and he did just that when speaking with Nikola Jokic on “Inside the NBA” moments after “The Joker” was named the 2023-24 NBA MVP.…
nypost.com nypost.com



Everything he said about stat stuffer is complete made up bull. Jokic is top 10 in everything. They had the same record and then Shaq once again weirdly makes it all about himself saying he was the baddest mofo in the league and kept getting robbed 20+ years ago
 
HuskyHawk said:
Neither of those are facts. They are just your opinion. Tatum has absolutely taken over games in the playoffs (as has Brown). He had a 50 point game in a key win vs the Nets in 2021. He's dominated multiple different playoff games in his career. He had a triple double a few games ago.

Until last year, Jokic hadn't led his team to a title either. At some point neither had MJ or LeBron or Steph Curry or Durant or Tim Duncan. The last team to win a title without a dominant offensive talent was Toronto. But it shouldn't be surprising that teams without good players don't win NBA titles. This whole "alpha" concept is silly. It's a misguided throwback to the Jordan era. Look at the GS titles and you'll see that Curry, Green, Durant led them in scoring in different series.

For every time some supposed "alpha" took over a game there's another time when they tried, missed a ton of shots and their team lost. You don't want a guy doing that, ever. It's crappy basketball. It's what Tatum (and Brown) did when he was younger. He has matured and realized that approach doesn't lead to winning.
Expand ...
Jokic had a backcourt of Campazzo and Austin Rivers and he's still yet to play with an all-star. Putting Tatum's name in their with Jordan, Lebron, Jokic, Curry is ridiculous.

Tatum overall has been terrible in 4th quarters of playoff games.
 
superjohn said:
Shaq is a real turd for this

nypost.com

Shaquille O’Neal openly tells Nikola Jokic that someone else should have won NBA MVP

Shaquille O’Neal is never afraid to share his opinion, and he did just that when speaking with Nikola Jokic on “Inside the NBA” moments after “The Joker” was named the 2023-24 NBA MVP.…
nypost.com nypost.com



Everything he said about stat stuffer is complete made up bull. Jokic is top 10 in everything. They had the same record and then Shaq once again weirdly makes it all about himself saying he was the baddest mofo in the league and kept getting robbed 20+ years ago
Expand ...

Really like how cool and good to people Shaq is in public and his persona in general, but he really is the definition of a hating old head in terms of modern players.
 
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CardiacAndre7 said:
Really like how cool and good to people Shaq is in public and his persona in general, but he really is the definition of a hating old head in terms of modern players.
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I just don't understand why he would take away from Jokic's moment like that. It's fine if he thinks someone else deserves it but he threw a mini tantrum in the studio and made it all about himself. Even mild mannered Ernie wasn't having it. Then to have Jokic on to congratulate him and Shaq tells him he didn't think he deserves the award is disrespectful.
 
superjohn said:
I just don't understand why he would take away from Jokic's moment like that. It's fine if he thinks someone else deserves it but he threw a mini tantrum in the studio and made it all about himself. Even mild mannered Ernie wasn't having it. Then to have Jokic on to congratulate him and Shaq tells him he didn't think he deserves the award is disrespectful.
Expand ...
Just unnecessary
 
nomar said:
For a superstar, he sure is crappy in A LOT of playoff games. Fortunately for him, and Celtics fans, the team is loaded.

Apart from the fact that the Celtics have some superstars, they remind me a lot of UConn -- great on both ends of the floor, Hydra-like offensively, and deep.
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True, I don’t think they have the talent advantage that we did to get away with playing that style of offense in a seven game series built around 3 point shooting. We’ll see how it works for them though as the Knicks may come into the ECF like this:
IMG_4934.jpeg
 
superjohn said:
Shaq is a real turd for this

nypost.com

Shaquille O’Neal openly tells Nikola Jokic that someone else should have won NBA MVP

Shaquille O’Neal is never afraid to share his opinion, and he did just that when speaking with Nikola Jokic on “Inside the NBA” moments after “The Joker” was named the 2023-24 NBA MVP.…
nypost.com nypost.com



Everything he said about stat stuffer is complete made up bull. Jokic is top 10 in everything. They had the same record and then Shaq once again weirdly makes it all about himself saying he was the baddest mofo in the league and kept getting robbed 20+ years ago
Expand ...

Yeah he had no business taking away from Jokic’s moment like this. Really unecessary.

There is a conversation to be had behind the voting changes that have taken place for Jokic to win 3 MVPs over the course of this time. It’s unusual based on how they usually vote for the award.
 
superjohn said:
Jokic had a backcourt of Campazzo and Austin Rivers and he's still yet to play with an all-star. Putting Tatum's name in their with Jordan, Lebron, Jokic, Curry is ridiculous.

Tatum overall has been terrible in 4th quarters of playoff games.
Expand ...
It's simply an example. He just turned 26 in March. Curry was 27 when he first won a title. So was LeBron. Jordan was 28, so was Durant. Jokic is 29. I don't know what his legacy will be, but it has a long way to go.
 
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Matrim55 said:
Tatum has the highest effective FG% in the league in crunch time over the past three postseasons:

View attachment 100577

He's also got a 46-point game 6 on the road in an elimination game and a league-record 51-point game 7.
Expand ...
Thanks for finding these stats. Could Tatum choose to assert himself more at times? Yes of course, but I always thought the narrative that Tatum isn't clutch was artificially manufactured and your stats back that up.

Do you have have a subscription to Stathead.com?
 
Matrim55 said:
Tatum has the highest effective FG% in the league in crunch time over the past three postseasons:

View attachment 100577

He's also got a 46-point game 6 on the road in an elimination game and a league-record 51-point game 7.
Expand ...
In the past three seasons and playoffs he's shooting 36.5% in the last 5 minutes of close games and 23% on three pointers. He averaged 3 ppg on 24% shooting in 4th quarters against the Warriors in the finals. He had 5 ppg on 36% shooting and as many turnovers as assists in the 4th quarters against Miami last season in the Eastern Conference finals. He went scoreless in the 4th quarter in three of those losses.
 
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gsmooth said:
Thanks for finding these stats. Could Tatum choose to assert himself more at times? Yes of course, but I always thought the narrative that Tatum isn't clutch was artificially manufactured and your stats back that up.

Do you have have a subscription to Stathead.com?
Expand ...
I did, but canceled it a while back. It's only $10 a month and a lot of fun if you want to win online arguments.

For what it's worth: Tatum could definitely be better in crunch time. He's been turnover-prone and goes Kobe-brained with those stupid stepbacks instead of just running the right action (running their pet actions in crunch time is what has made Denver so good).

Of course, there's only one true crunch time god of the past 25 years, and we all know who that was:

tatum crunch.jpeg
 
This seems like a weird narrative to push when they haven't broken a sweat yet in the playoffs. Seems like the kind of thing to revisit if they actually lose a series and he's bad.
 
Matrim55 said:
I'm not gonna bother to fact check the rest of your post, but:

In the 4th quarter of game 1 he had 6 points.
In the 4th quarter of game 2 he had 5 points.
In the 4th quarter of game 3 he did not play.
In the 4th quarter of game 7, playing hurt, he had 2 points.

The "Tatum is a playoff choker" narrative is about as real as the "Hurley can't win a close game" narrative.
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Sorry, no field goals against the Heat in three of the 4th quarter losses in the Eastern Conference finals. 36% fg, 10% three point, as many turnovers as assists. He still may have been better than he was in the fourth quarters against the Warriors in the finals.
 
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BigErnMcCracken said:
This seems like a weird narrative to push when they haven't broken a sweat yet in the playoffs. Seems like the kind of thing to revisit if they actually lose a series and he's bad.
Expand ...
I’m a Celtics fan and “is Tatum good enough to be the best player on a title team?” is 100% a debate worth having — and for what it’s worth, at this point i think he’s just short of that standard.

But…

1. He’s been awesome in every facet of the game except shooting so far this postseason,

2. He has a history of performing in the biggest games, and

3. Anyone who brings up his two biggest “failures” (2022 finals and 2023 game 7 v Miami) without mentioning that he was injured for both is probably arguing in bad faith.


Dude’s been amazing, and I don’t think he’s peaked yet. Just wish he hadn’t gone to Duke.
 
Matrim55 said:
I did, but canceled it a while back. It's only $10 a month and a lot of fun if you want to win online arguments.

For what it's worth: Tatum could definitely be better in crunch time. He's been turnover-prone and goes Kobe-brained with those stupid stepbacks instead of just running the right action (running their pet actions in crunch time is what has made Denver so good).

Of course, there's only one true crunch time god of the past 25 years, and we all know who that was:

View attachment 100581
Expand ...
63% from 3 is insane
 
HuskyHawk said:
Neither of those are facts. They are just your opinion. Tatum has absolutely taken over games in the playoffs (as has Brown). He had a 50 point game in a key win vs the Nets in 2021. He's dominated multiple different playoff games in his career. He had a triple double a few games ago.

Until last year, Jokic hadn't led his team to a title either. At some point neither had MJ or LeBron or Steph Curry or Durant or Tim Duncan. The last team to win a title without a dominant offensive talent was Toronto. But it shouldn't be surprising that teams without good players don't win NBA titles. This whole "alpha" concept is silly. It's a misguided throwback to the Jordan era. Look at the GS titles and you'll see that Curry, Green, Durant led them in scoring in different series.

For every time some supposed "alpha" took over a game there's another time when they tried, missed a ton of shots and their team lost. You don't want a guy doing that, ever. It's crappy basketball. It's what Tatum (and Brown) did when he was younger. He has matured and realized that approach doesn't lead to winning.
Expand ...

It's not an opinion. It is a rock solid fact. Show me one guy below who you can say is not above Tatum's level.

I'm not saying you need to win a title to be a megastar, but you need to have a megastar to a win a title...unless you're 2004 Detroit (arguably 2008 Boston, although KG finished 3rd in the MVP vote) and, hopefully, 2024 Boston.

I'm not saying you can't have more than one, which you seem to be inferring from my use of the word "alpha"; the Heat and Warrior superteams put together various megastars to great success.
  • 2022- Curry
  • 2021- Giannis
  • 2020 - LeBron
  • 2019 - Kawhi
  • 2018 - Curry/Durant
  • 2017 - Curry/Durant
  • 2016 - LeBron
  • 2015 - Curry
  • 2014 - Duncan
  • 2013 - LeBron/Wade
  • 2012 - LeBron/Wade
  • 2011- Dirk
  • 2010 - Kobe
  • 2009 - Kobe
  • 2008 - KG
  • 2007 - Duncan
  • 2006 - Shaq
  • 2005 - Duncan
  • 2004 - NONE
  • 2003 - Duncan/Robinson
  • 2002 - Shaq
  • 2001 - Shaq
  • 2000 - Shaq
  • 1999 - Robinson
  • 1998 - Jordan
  • 1997 - Jordan
  • 1996 - Jordan
  • 1995 - Hakeem
  • 1994 - Hakeem
  • 1993 - Jordan
  • 1992 - Jordan
  • 1991 - Jordan
I love Tatum and I hope he breaks through to the next level. He's just not there yet.
 
Last edited:
nomar said:
It's not an opinion. It is a rock solid fact. Show me one guy below who you can say is not above Tatum's level.

I'm not saying you need to win a title to be a megastar, but you need to have a megastar to a win a title...unless you're 2004 Detroit (arguably 2008 Boston, although KG finished 3rd in the MVP vote) and, hopefully, 2024 Boston.

I'm not saying you can't have more than one, which you seem to be inferring from my use of the word "alpha"; the Heat and Warrior superteams put together various megastars to great success.
  • 2022- Curry
  • 2021- Giannis
  • 2020 - LeBron
  • 2019 - Kawhi
  • 2018 - Curry/Durant
  • 2017 - Curry/Durant
  • 2016 - LeBron
  • 2015 - Curry
  • 2014 - Duncan
  • 2013 - LeBron/Wade
  • 2012 - LeBron/Wade
  • 2011- Dirk
  • 2010 - Kobe
  • 2009 - Kobe
  • 2008 - KG
  • 2007 - Duncan
  • 2006 - Shaq
  • 2005 - Duncan
  • 2004 - NONE
  • 2003 - Duncan/Robinson
  • 2002 - Shaq
  • 2001 - Shaq
  • 2000 - Shaq
  • 1999 - Robinson
  • 1998 - Jordan
  • 1997 - Jordan
  • 1996 - Jordan
  • 1995 - Hakeem
  • 1994 - Hakeem
  • 1993 - Jordan
  • 1992 - Jordan
  • 1991 - Jordan
I love Tatum and I hope he breaks through to the next level. He's just not there yet.
Expand ...
Kawhi is well behind Tatum as an offensive player. Kevin Garnett? Are you serious with that? Pierce was the money guy on that team, and then Ray. KG played D. Tatum is a better playoff scorer and player than Wade, who was never the lead guy anyway. Dirk was like 33-34 when he finally won his one title. He was a hell of a scorer, but he had to be because his teams sucked. As a reminder, Tatum just turned 26. Take a look at David Robinson's playoff scoring and tell me he's a more reliable scorer than Tatum. I'm not questioning whether he's an all-time great, he is, but not because of clutch scoring.

Here's the overall Per Game stats in the playoffs, all time. Tatum is 34th on that list and will move up, since his first two playoff seasons are dragging down the average. He's also averaging 5 assists and 10 boards a game the last two seasons. Is he there with the greatest players of all time like Jordan, LeBron, Duncan and Curry? Of course not.
www.basketball-reference.com

NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Points Per Game | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the complete list of NBA & ABACareer Leaders and Records for Playoff and more on Basketball-Reference.com
www.basketball-reference.com www.basketball-reference.com
 
HuskyHawk said:
Kawhi is well behind Tatum as an offensive player. Kevin Garnett? Are you serious with that? Pierce was the money guy on that team, and then Ray. KG played D. Tatum is a better playoff scorer and player than Wade, who was never the lead guy anyway. Dirk was like 33-34 when he finally won his one title. He was a hell of a scorer, but he had to be because his teams sucked. As a reminder, Tatum just turned 26. Take a look at David Robinson's playoff scoring and tell me he's a more reliable scorer than Tatum. I'm not questioning whether he's an all-time great, he is, but not because of clutch scoring.

Here's the overall Per Game stats in the playoffs, all time. Tatum is 34th on that list and will move up, since his first two playoff seasons are dragging down the average. He's also averaging 5 assists and 10 boards a game the last two seasons. Is he there with the greatest players of all time like Jordan, LeBron, Duncan and Curry? Of course not.
www.basketball-reference.com

NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Points Per Game | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the complete list of NBA & ABACareer Leaders and Records for Playoff and more on Basketball-Reference.com
www.basketball-reference.com www.basketball-reference.com
Expand ...
Lolz, you think Tatum is better than Wade, Dirk, and Kawhi were then.

"Tatum is a better playoff scorer and player than Wade, who was never the lead guy anyway." What?!??

Did you just start watching the NBA a couple of years ago?
 
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HuskyHawk said:
Kawhi is well behind Tatum as an offensive player. Kevin Garnett? Are you serious with that? Pierce was the money guy on that team, and then Ray. KG played D. Tatum is a better playoff scorer and player than Wade, who was never the lead guy anyway. Dirk was like 33-34 when he finally won his one title. He was a hell of a scorer, but he had to be because his teams sucked. As a reminder, Tatum just turned 26. Take a look at David Robinson's playoff scoring and tell me he's a more reliable scorer than Tatum. I'm not questioning whether he's an all-time great, he is, but not because of clutch scoring.

Here's the overall Per Game stats in the playoffs, all time. Tatum is 34th on that list and will move up, since his first two playoff seasons are dragging down the average. He's also averaging 5 assists and 10 boards a game the last two seasons. Is he there with the greatest players of all time like Jordan, LeBron, Duncan and Curry? Of course not.
www.basketball-reference.com

NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Points Per Game | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the complete list of NBA & ABACareer Leaders and Records for Playoff and more on Basketball-Reference.com
www.basketball-reference.com www.basketball-reference.com
Expand ...
Kawhi is more efficient by like, every metric. He doesn’t need to shoot high volume to get what he gets.
 
I am Knicks fan but never really hated the Celtics like I did the Red Sox probably because if never seemed the teams were good at the same time. But anyway there are a number of posts about how clutch Tatum is and some data and opinion on the answer. I think a good percentage of the media has talked about his lack of showing up big during the big moments.
Don’t think I have seen anyone question that he is a star.

I just saw that he is the odds on favorite to win the NBA finals MVP and right now it is not even close. I guess that is more related to the fact that it is a given that the Celtics are going to be playing in the finals. So in essence his odds are enhanced because you are pretty much guaranteed to have a horse in the race. It will be interesting to see what it is if Ant or SGA make the finals.

But if Tatum happens to win, I would imagine the clutch part of the argument would be answered.
 
Last edited:
superjohn said:
Lolz, you think Tatum is better than Wade, Dirk, and Kawhi were then.

"Tatum is a better playoff scorer and player than Wade, who was never the lead guy anyway." What?!??

Did you just start watching the NBA a couple of years ago?
Expand ...

Kawhi was on a different level when he led Toronto to the title. He was absolutely incredible.

And when D-Wade led Miami past Dallas by himself, that was legendary. He put that team on his back.
 
superjohn said:
Lolz, you think Tatum is better than Wade, Dirk, and Kawhi were then.

"Tatum is a better playoff scorer and player than Wade, who was never the lead guy anyway." What?!??

Did you just start watching the NBA a couple of years ago?
Expand ...
Kawhi is an incredible player, but as a scorer over his playoff career? He won a finals MVP averaging 15 ppg. Wade’s numbers are below Tatum‘s numbers in the playoffs. It’s early in Tatum’s career, I suppose if he never does anything else, of course not. But at 26 he’s done quite well.
 
I really don't like the Celtics offensive approach sometimes, just firing up 3s for the hell of it
 
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