NBA Playoffs | Page 28 | The Boneyard

NBA Playoffs

UConn990411 said:
The injury concerns are legit, but I think people forget he’s still only 25.

In theory, he should be entering his prime in the upcoming seasons.
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It's pretty crazy to think that he's only two years older than Embiid. Either way, I think this budding Celtics dynasty might turn out to be the best thing to happen for the Warriors. They'll need something to fight off complacency as they age together - otherwise, I think things will eventually go stale and they'll fracture off.
 
superjohn said:
I don't know why you keep posting fake playoff career averages for Chris Paul and Isiah Thomas. Paul's playoff averages- 21.5 ppg, 9 assists, and 4.9 rebs. Isiah Thomas playoff averages. 20.4 ppg, 8.9, assists, and 4.7 rebs.

No matter how you slice it, Chris Paul just isn't going to stack up to Zeke as a playoff performer. Isiah was going through yearly playoff wars against Bird and Jordan. I watched him score 16 points in 90 seconds at the end of the playpff game against the Knicks. I watched him drop 25 in the third quarter in the NBA finals against the Lakers on one ankle. I can't stand Isiah but he was a beast. Heart and Soul of the Pistons and brought them 2 championships.

I'll just assume you are a teenager and never watched Isiah. This really shouldn't be a hill you choose to die on.
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Paul's stats were from that article I linked. Stats you posted are current, thank you. Accidentally used the wrong line for Zeke, his last season instead of the average, up until the turnovers which that and after were right. 2am blunder.

Updated Paul playoff per game ranks among the absolute elite PGs in NBA history:
Tied for 5th most points, tied for 3rd most assists, tied for 3rd most rebounds, fewest turnovers, most steals, and 2nd best shooting %.

Thomas's ranks:
Tied for 6th in most points, tied for 3rd most assists, tied for 3rd most rebounds, 6th fewest turnovers, tied for 2nd most steals, tied for 7th best shooting %.

Paul is still top 5 in every category and notably he still outperforms Isiah in literally every. single. category. But Ringggzzzz. What a terrible playoff performer.

Paul doesn't have the Birds, Magics, and Jordans, specifically, but he did run into his own dynasties. His whole career has been in the supercharged West. He lost to the Spurs x2, Kobe's Lakers, Carmelo's best team, and James Harden's Houston. His other 3 losses are with him hurt or with Blake gone (and he was phenomenal in both of the series without Blake on the Clippers).

Isiah clearly came through in the playoffs, though, right? Especially in the clutch? His play on the injured ankle in '88 was truly incredible. Of course he missed the icing shot in that one. And then presumably still playing hurt put up 4/12 to lose the series. Obviously that's poor luck, but time has a way of making you forget that in the 2 years before they won, he shot 42% for the 2 full playoff series they lost including the aforementioned game 7 and a 2nd game 7 in '87 with 10/28 shooting. Or the clinching game 6 of the series before in '88 where they won despite him shooting 3/11. Or 2 years before when they were eliminated and he shot 12/28 in the clinching game with 5 turnovers. Or that he shot 40% for the full series they lost the year after their titles. Or that he shot 34% the year after that for the full series they lost to the KNICKS.

Paul has had some stinkers, too. But he did just have a 41 point (on only 22 shots), 10 assist, 7 rebound, 0 turnover game in a clinching game last round, which is better than any single Zeke game in the playoffs by game score. Nobody else has ever had over 40 points and 0 turnovers in playoff history.

Overall, he's been better than Zeke in the playoffs. If his Joe Dumars wasn't Austin Rivers, we might not be having this conversation.
 
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champs99and04 said:
Chris Paul isn't a guy who bends over, either. Curry has actually been held in check this postseason, relatively speaking. Aside from the obvious fact that they have great players, what makes Golden State so difficult to defend is everything they do away from the ball. Any friendly fire navigating their screens and cuts can be fatal.

I'm not ready to declare either series over, but assuming we do get that match-up, I think what makes the Warriors better equipped to solve the Boston riddle is their versatility defensively. I mean, they have four defenders who can pretty much guard any offensive player Boston has. Add a couple other players like Smart and Baynes who Golden State can hide guys on, and I just don't see how they score enough points. Horford, Brown, and Tatum can create enough offense to maybe win a game or two, but the Celtics have droughts and those droughts kill you against the Warriors.
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Oh the Warriors are much better equipped to deal with the Boston defense, because they can score in some many more ways and get points from so many guys. I don't think the Celtics as constituted can beat them in a series. But I think they can win a game at home. Possibly two. I think the talk of a sweep exaggerates the reality. Boston poses problems for GS that several other teams don't. If Irving and Hayward were healthy, I'd say the series would be a toss up 7 game series.
 
auror said:
Paul's stats were from that article I linked. Stats you posted are current, thank you. Accidentally used the wrong line for Zeke, his last season instead of the average, up until the turnovers which that and after were right. 2am blunder.

Updated Paul playoff per game ranks among the absolute elite PGs in NBA history:
Tied for 5th most points, tied for 3rd most assists, tied for 3rd most rebounds, fewest turnovers, most steals, and 2nd best shooting %.

Thomas's ranks:
Tied for 6th in most points, tied for 3rd most assists, tied for 3rd most rebounds, 6th fewest turnovers, tied for 2nd most steals, tied for 7th best shooting %.

Paul is still top 5 in every category and notably he still outperforms Isiah in literally every. single. category. But Ringggzzzz. What a terrible playoff performer.

Paul doesn't have the Birds, Magics, and Jordans, specifically, but he did run into his own dynasties. His whole career has been in the supercharged West. He lost to the Spurs x2, Kobe's Lakers, Carmelo's best team, and James Harden's Houston. His other 3 losses are with him hurt or with Blake gone (and he was phenomenal in both of the series without Blake on the Clippers).

Isiah clearly came through in the playoffs, though, right? Especially in the clutch? His play on the injured ankle in '88 was truly incredible. Of course he missed the icing shot in that one. And then presumably still playing hurt put up 4/12 to lose the series. Obviously that's poor luck, but time has a way of making you forget that in the 2 years before they won, he shot 42% for the 2 full playoff series they lost including the aforementioned game 7 and a 2nd game 7 in '87 with 10/28 shooting. Or the clinching game 6 of the series before in '88 where they won despite him shooting 3/11. Or 2 years before when they were eliminated and he shot 12/28 in the clinching game with 5 turnovers. Or that he shot 40% for the full series they lost the year after their titles. Or that he shot 34% the year after that for the full series they lost to the KNICKS.

Paul has had some stinkers, too. But he did just have a 41 point, 10 assist, 7 rebound, 0 turnover game in a clinching game last round, which is better than any single Zeke game in the playoffs by game score.

Overall, he's been better than Zeke in the playoffs. If his Joe Dumars wasn't Austin Rivers, we might not be having this conversation.
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Why does anyone care? These arguments are pointless. Winning in the playoffs is a function of being a great player and being on a great team. Paul hasn't been on many great teams. On the other hand, individual overall stats can be padded much more easily playing on a team where you have to produce more of the offense. They are both very good players, and its far from obvious who is/was better.
 
This Boston team is enjoyable to watch, good team basketball, but I don't even feel like the warriors are firing on all cylinders right now. Warriors will mow them down.

Boston can shut down two high end options, but the 3rd/4th will roll. KD will dominate that series.
 
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Mr. French said:
I think I’m with you here.
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I find people who weren't old enough to watch or just didn't watch get so hung up on numbers (at least he finally posted the right numbers). It's pretty hard to believe anyone who watched them both during their careers and in big playoff games could come away saying Paul is the better player. The Clippers were routinely one of the favorites going into the season and all they ever managed was making the second round. They had one of the all-time playoff chokes blowing it to a nothing Rockets team. Paul's numbers may have been good I'm not even going to look it up because I know what I saw. Clippers were destroying them and had the series won before giving it all away, your job as a point guard is to not let that happen. Paul is a great player but there is no getting around that his teams didn't live up to expectations when the lights were the brightest, it's a team game but when you are the point guard and the best player a lot of the blame is going to fall at your feet, as it should. Since Auror loves stats so much, he should be touting Westbrook, Harden, and Tiny Archibald over Paul and Thomas.
 
superjohn said:
I find people who weren't old enough to watch or just didn't watch get so hung up on numbers (at least he finally posted the right numbers). It's pretty hard to believe anyone who watched them both during their careers and in big playoff games could come away saying Paul is the better player. The Clippers were routinely one of the favorites going into the season and all they ever managed was making the second round. They had one of the all-time playoff chokes blowing it to a nothing Rockets team. Paul's numbers may have been good I'm not even going to look it up because I know what I saw. Clippers were destroying them and had the series won before giving it all away, your job as a point guard is to not let that happen. Paul is a great player but there is no getting around that his teams didn't live up to expectations when the lights were the brightest, it's a team game but when you are the point guard and the best player a lot of the blame is going to fall at your feet, as it should. Since Auror loves stats so much, he should be touting Westbrook, Harden, and Tiny Archibald over Paul and Thomas.
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I'm in total agreement with you here.

Sounds stupid, but some guys just have that quality. Whatever it is, being a 'winner', being clutch, having an iron will, or simply just the 'it factor'. Whatever you want to call it, it is real. Whenever the lights are the brightest, they perform at their highest.

Not to derail, but it's one of the primary arguments why I take Brady over Manning 100 times out of 100.
 
intlzncster said:
I'm in total agreement with you here.

Sounds stupid, but some guys just have that quality. Whatever it is, being a 'winner', being clutch, having an iron will, or simply just the 'it factor'. Whatever you want to call it, it is real. Whenever the lights are the brightest, they perform at their highest.
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What about all the clinching games Thomas choked in I mentioned?
 
Cleveland is -6 in game three.

I'm not going to be the fool that writes them a check, but at what point does Vegas blow up whatever model they're using for Boston? They've won, what, six of their last seven as underdogs? Outright. And a lot of them haven't been close. It's shades of the Eagles getting four points against Minnesota in the NFC Championship.
 
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The answer to the question of what it would look like if Geno coached elite men has been answered. It would look like Brad Stevens coaching the Celtics. And, really, we have already seen this. It was/is the Popavich coached Spurs. These guys can be great players with mediocre coaches but they are better when coached by someone that pays attention to the little things and the intangibles. It can and does make a difference no matter how athletic the players are.
 
champs99and04 said:
Cleveland is -6 in game three.

I'm not going to be the fool that writes them a check, but at what point does Vegas blow up whatever model they're using for Boston? They've won, what, six of their last seven as underdogs? Outright. And a lot of them haven't been close. It's shades of the Eagles getting four points against Minnesota in the NFC Championship.
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That line will come down I'd guess, but Boston will still probably close as a dog. They're waiting for the public to bite on Boston. I think that finally happens now after that performance last night and all the "will breaking" talk.
Might actually be able to middle if you take Boston +6 then wait for line to drop and grab Cleveland -whatever it falls to.
 
Paesano said:
The answer to the question of what it would look like if Geno coached elite men has been answered. It would look like Brad Stevens coaching the Celtics. And, really, we have already seen this. It was/is the Popavich coached Spurs. These guys can be great players with mediocre coaches but they are better when coached by someone that pays attention to the little things and the intangibles. It can and does make a difference no matter how athletic the players are.
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I'd love to see Stevens land a generational talent.

But one isn't available right now, and because the pick is 1-1 protected next year, help won't come from the draft (likely) either.

Ironically to this thread, landing a Chris Paul is about what you can hope for with a 2-3. And that's still really really freaking good.
 
UConnStats said:
Statistically Zeke isn't even that close to Chris Paul. Nor is Westbrook (who I find to be one of the most overrated players ever, but that's a different subject).
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As I pointed out I'm not a big stats guy but how is Zeke and Westbrook not even close to Paul on stats?
 
Paesano said:
The answer to the question of what it would look like if Geno coached elite men has been answered. It would look like Brad Stevens coaching the Celtics. And, really, we have already seen this. It was/is the Popavich coached Spurs. These guys can be great players with mediocre coaches but they are better when coached by someone that pays attention to the little things and the intangibles. It can and does make a difference no matter how athletic the players are.
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This is the kind of stuff that can make it embarrassing being a UConn fan.
 
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UConnStats said:
Statistically Zeke isn't even that close to Chris Paul. Nor is Westbrook (who I find to be one of the most overrated players ever, but that's a different subject).
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Idk about "ever", but Westbrook is overrated simply because he's not at his best as a 'team player'. His signature skill is taking over basketball games all by himself. He's one of the best I've ever seen at it. But playing an entire game within a team structure doesn't seem to maximize that particular skill.
 
auror said:
What about all the clinching games Thomas choked in I mentioned?
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Even the best fail. Nor did I say he was perfect and/or best ever.
 
I have no dog in this fight, but I don't share the opinion that Chris Paul isn't a winner. I touched on this briefly earlier in the thread when I was defending Redick, but people overstate how disappointing those Clipper teams were. They were a top heavy team that battled injuries virtually every season in a loaded conference. Go through the game logs and tell me where he's at fault - even in the final three games of the Houston collapse he averaged 26 and 10 on 51/35/94 splits. Sure he was bad in game 7 against Utah last year, he also put in 29 and 8 on the road in game six to keep them alive. Look at what he's done in key games alone:

2013 - 28 and 8 (11 of 16 from the field) in game six loss to Memphis

2014 - 23 and 12 against OKC, shooting 51% from the field and 46% from three on the series. Despite his critical blunder in game five, OKC was better and should have won. The previous round against Golden State he holds Steph in check and goes for 22 and 14 in a game seven win.

2015 - 26 and 10 (9-20) in game seven loss @ Houston. Prior round he goes for 27 and 6 (9 for 13) against defending champs in an epic game seven.

2016 - Hurt

All the guy has done his entire career is consistently engineer top five NBA teams. Unfortunately for him, he plays in a league where there isn't as much variance in playoff results as there is in other sports. If the worst thing you can say about him is that he's not as good as LeBron or Durant, I think he's still in pretty good company.
 
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superjohn said:
I find people who weren't old enough to watch or just didn't watch get so hung up on numbers (at least he finally posted the right numbers). It's pretty hard to believe anyone who watched them both during their careers and in big playoff games could come away saying Paul is the better player. The Clippers were routinely one of the favorites going into the season and all they ever managed was making the second round. They had one of the all-time playoff chokes blowing it to a nothing Rockets team. Paul's numbers may have been good I'm not even going to look it up because I know what I saw. Clippers were destroying them and had the series won before giving it all away, your job as a point guard is to not let that happen. Paul is a great player but there is no getting around that his teams didn't live up to expectations when the lights were the brightest, it's a team game but when you are the point guard and the best player a lot of the blame is going to fall at your feet, as it should. Since Auror loves stats so much, he should be touting Westbrook, Harden, and Tiny Archibald over Paul and Thomas.
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I'm not as young as you think. Your memory isn't as good as you think (nor is mine).

The fallacy of declaring anyone who happened to win when they had more talent as more clutch or having that "it" factor is preposterous. There's a reason the Pistons never won until Hall of Famers Dumars and Rodman came into their own (other than Bird's back) and they traded for Aguirre. Zeke was even slightly on the downslope during their Finals years, but they had their best teams. Thomas, Dumars, Rodman, Laimbeer, and Dantley/Aguirre ALL made multiple All-Star games. 5 guys on that team! Plus you could argue Vinnie Johnson was better than some of those guys, and Mahorn/Salley were really good on defense that year, too. They were loaded.

Much more loaded than any Chris Paul team has been.. so he's a disappointment despite playing well in the playoffs and Thomas is obviously a better PG historically. Thanks GM Doc! The Clippers 4th best player, Redick has a strong similarity score to the Piston's 6th best (or so), Vinnie Johnson.
 
UConnStats said:
Because Chris Paul’s TS% and AST:TO are way better. Paul is insanely efficient.
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Paul's assist to turnover is way better and he shoots like 3% better on field goals and is a better ft shooter but shoots way less of them than Paul, so that cancels out Westbrook however averages way more points and gets double the rebounds Paul gets. I don't like Westbrook but it's pretty silly to say Paul's stats are a lot better when they're not. Westbrook obviously is a way more high risk player but with that comes the reward, he averaged a triple double the past two seasons. Paul's assist turnover rate and shooting percentage is also better than his teammate Harden. You think he's better than him too? I don't like Westbrook or Harden but you're not going to find many people who think Chris Paul is better than them right now.
 
auror said:
You have to wonder about LeBron post "neck" injury. He made a couple nice passes and drives, but I'm not convinced he didn't suffer a concussion.

Other than that, the Cavs were 7/14 from 3 in the first half and the Celtics locked it down in the 2nd (3/17), forced some turnovers and misses, got out in transition, and when
they weren't in transition, they broke their man off the dribble and got into the paint. Cavs 1v1 D is garbage. Celtics were taking easier shots on almost every possession.

Marcus Smart gets the game ball though, He made every play they needed him to when the game was close.
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Just catching up on this thread, but agree re: LeBron. As soon as it happened I thought "concussion."

Was "interesting" to hear Lue talk about the C's "gooning it up"...when his guy Smith had the biggest goon play out of either game so far.
 
superjohn said:
I don't know why you keep posting fake playoff career averages for Chris Paul and Isiah Thomas. Paul's playoff averages- 21.5 ppg, 9 assists, and 4.9 rebs. Isiah Thomas playoff averages. 20.4 ppg, 8.9, assists, and 4.7 rebs.

No matter how you slice it, Chris Paul just isn't going to stack up to Zeke as a playoff performer. Isiah was going through yearly playoff wars against Bird and Jordan. I watched him score 16 points in 90 seconds at the end of the playpff game against the Knicks. I watched him drop 25 in the third quarter in the NBA finals against the Lakers on one ankle. I can't stand Isiah but he was a beast. Heart and Soul of the Pistons and brought them 2 championships.

I'll just assume you are a teenager and never watched Isiah. This really shouldn't be a hill you choose to die on.
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I never liked Zeke at all either...he was the 'enemy', but to say Chris Paul is anywhere near as good a playoff performer...not sure how one does that....
 
I got annoyed by "it factor", "clutch", and "memorable moments" arguments for Isiah vs. the "choker" accusations for Paul.

So I grabbed the game logs for every potential clinching game (for their own team or opponent) in the playoffs for both Isiah or Paul. The results are not shocking to me:

Isiah Thomas
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Chris Paul
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Their stats are mostly quite close. Basically the same amount of points and steals. But Paul shot the ball significantly better (and this is regular FG% not eFG% so Paul is actually penalized by taking more lower % 3-pointers) from the field and line, grabbed half a rebound more per game, assisted on half a shot more per game, and committed markedly fewer turnovers. Once again, there is no area that Thomas surpassed Paul.

That 42% shooting from Zeke is pretty atrocious.

@superjohn @intlzncster @Yardigan @Mr. French
 
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