NBA Playoffs

[The X Man]

Also Lonzo Ball picked over Tatum. Tatum rubbed Philly's nose in that trade pretty good, if the Celtics luck into the Lakers pick (if 2-5) then they too get to bask in the stupidity of passing on Tatum while the Celtics continue to build.

Small point but it can only be 2 or 3. The Lakers can only move into top 3.

 

[Rocktheworld]

He also consistently wasn’t good at the end of games, so...

Not arguing against the fact that he’s really good.

I'm not arguing he is at his prime yet. I think that if someone is voted into the All-Star game, that they are, as I responded to, "closer to his prime than he is to being a young guy still figuring things out."

I just think Philly’s youth is overstated.

I agree

Tatum and Brown are younger than Embiid and Saric, Rozier and Smart are the same age. Tatum is younger than Simmons and Brown is the same age. Celtics were definitely younger.

 

[tzznandrew]

I'm not arguing he is at his prime yet. I think that if someone is voted into the All-Star game, that they are, as I responded to, "closer to his prime than he is to being a young guy still figuring things out."


I agree

Tatum and Brown are younger than Embiid and Saric, Rozier and Smart are the same age. Tatum is younger than Simmons and Brown is the same age. Celtics were definitely younger.

Age vs. Experience, though. One team has been in multiple playoff series (4 straight years), the other spent that same amount of time getting slaughtered by everyone.

They'll learn how to win if they stay healthy.

 

[Yardigan]

From: 76ers' Redick wants return, says feeling mutual

"I think it is a mutual appreciation," Redick told reporters Thursday, a day after Philly's season ended in Game 5 with a loss to the Boston Celtics. "I am sure we all hope I am back."

huh?

Reddick seemed clearly perturbed with McConnell the last couple games...his act kinda made it seem like he was concerned with what TJ's play was going to mean to his future...which, given the price tag difference (huge) and play difference (not nearly as huge)...he probably should be concerned. It's probably obvious and posted elsewhere in this thread, but no way I see JJ back with Philly next year, without a massive pay cut. JJ's had a way better career, but if you're talking going forward value for money, in a what're you going to do value-wise for me tomorrow? world ...the gap is no longer that great.

 

[Walker11]

From: 76ers' Redick wants return, says feeling mutual

"I think it is a mutual appreciation," Redick told reporters Thursday, a day after Philly's season ended in Game 5 with a loss to the Boston Celtics. "I am sure we all hope I am back."

huh?

Reddick seemed clearly perturbed with McConnell the last couple games...his act kinda made it seem like he was concerned with what TJ's play was going to mean to his future...which, given the price tag difference (huge) and play difference (not nearly as huge)...he probably should be concerned. It's probably obvious and posted elsewhere in this thread, but no way I see JJ back with Philly next year, without a massive pay cut. JJ's had a way better career, but if you're talking going forward value for money, in a what're you going to do value-wise for me tomorrow? world ...the gap is no longer that great.

I have heard whispers around the league that JJ and TJ are good friends.

In all seriousness, the competition for replacing JJ is not going to be TJ. Not similar players. I am confident that everyone in the league understands that his contract was an anomaly, JJ included, and the expectation is for a longer contract with much less money per year.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

I mean I wouldn’t trot a rookie SG out there who played 13 total games, in a series in which you are down, in the playoffs where every possession matters

They weren't down in game 1. And I am not saying he should have received heavy minutes, but no burn at all? He also recorded a triple double in one of those 13 games. You can't find 10 minutes over 5 games for the number 1 pick? He needs confidence and his coach just told him he has no confidence in him for the world to see.

 

[champs99and04]

Boston's best player right now is Horford. He's experienced and settled down the youngins, who got to learn all year from Irving. Hell, Marcus Smart has experience on a winning team, too. Of the best Celtics players, only Tatum did not have experience playing in the playoffs before this series. Brown and Rozier played in the conference Finals last year...

All of the 76ers best players, save JJ, were new to the playoffs.

While Horford and Smart likely provide valuable moxy, I'm skeptical that last year's "conference finals" prepared Brown and Rozier for this season any more than throwing an inning in a 10-1 game prepares you to close. Simmons, Embiid, and Saric had logged nearly 10,000 combined NBA minutes coming into the series which is more than Tatum, Brown, and Rozier. Even if we give Horford the edge over Redick, I think we'd be splitting hairs. If anything, the fact that Irving was around all season should have worked to their disadvantage since it gave Philly's guys more experience shouldering the scoring load.

We knew Philly was short on playoff experience before the series and they were still heavy favorites. I think it's possible to consider their youth without re-adjusting our expectations after the fact. They're further behind than we thought they were two weeks ago. It's not the end of the world, but it's also not beyond our capabilities to keep score in real time. Their stock took a hit.

 

[champs99and04]

It was pretty clear that my comment wasn't about the "numbers". It was using a guy that came through in the clutch in your description of a choke team. You could have said the Ollie/Purvis era.

Was Ollie not the coach in 2014?

Besides, my point was never that the individual players were chokers. Purvis played his best basketball in the biggest games. My point is that there is a correlation between the type of players those guys are and how they fare in close games.

 

[tzznandrew]

Simmons, Embiid, and Saric had logged nearly 10,000 combined NBA minutes coming into the series which is more than Tatum, Brown, and Rozier.

Horford and Smart played a ton in last year's playoffs. Rozier had 277 minutes last year, and 99 the year before. Jaylen had 215. That's not nothing, and is more than token minutes.

Who cares about regular season minutes? The playoffs are a different beast.

 

[nycscooby]

Horford and Smart played a ton in last year's playoffs. Rozier had 277 minutes last year, and 99 the year before. Jaylen had 215. That's not nothing, and is more than token minutes.

Who cares about regular season minutes? The playoffs are a different beast.

Celts fan here, hoping we see the Kevin Love of the last two seasons and not the T-Wolves version we saw last series. LeBron is what he is but a revived Love with fresh legs could be the difference.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Horford and Smart played a ton in last year's playoffs. Rozier had 277 minutes last year, and 99 the year before. Jaylen had 215. That's not nothing, and is more than token minutes.

Who cares about regular season minutes? The playoffs are a different beast.

Agreed. Facts are people are really excited to blow smoke up Philly's behind b/c of the excitement over the process* and seeing the potential in Embid and Simmons. But it was premature and if the Heat were just slightly better a few bounces would have made that a much closer series. Yes equally the Sixers lost in 5 due to a couple seemingly random moments (i.e. Bellinelli's feet on line) but the Celtics consistently executed better down the stretch & Horford played the biggest role in a lot of that. Big Al's got more playoff minutes probably than every Sixer not named JJ Reddick combined.

*I still don't get why people love this story and are rewarding Philly for what they did. Yes it was smart from an acquire talent standpoint, but they threw away 4 seasons yet still operated, charged admission, televised, went on road for those sham games that they were orchestrated to lose. Encouraging this behavior makes for non-competitive basketball. Imagine in CBB if UConn had a conference opponent that decimated their roster for multiple years because it allowed them to get better recruits. We'd be absolutely bu__s_ over that sort of strategy, legislate it away and absolutely not reward or admire it. The system is broken, why applaud the thief that steals from the unattended candy dish?

 

[Yardigan]

Agreed. Facts are people are really excited to blow smoke up Philly's behind b/c of the excitement over the process* and seeing the potential in Embid and Simmons. But it was premature and if the Heat were just slightly better a few bounces would have made that a much closer series. Yes equally the Sixers lost in 5 due to a couple seemingly random moments (i.e. Bellinelli's feet on line) but the Celtics consistently executed better down the stretch & Horford played the biggest role in a lot of that. Big Al's got more playoff minutes probably than every Sixer not named JJ Reddick combined.

*I still don't get why people love this story and are rewarding Philly for what they did. Yes it was smart from an acquire talent standpoint, but they threw away 4 seasons yet still operated, charged admission, televised, went on road for those sham games that they were orchestrated to lose. Encouraging this behavior makes for non-competitive basketball. Imagine in CBB if UConn had a conference opponent that decimated their roster for multiple years because it allowed them to get better recruits. We'd be absolutely bu__s_ over that sort of strategy, legislate it away and absolutely not reward or admire it. The system is broken, why applaud the thief that steals from the unattended candy dish?

Because...unfortunately...that's how we do...see: Jailbreak AND Firestick...

 

[champs99and04]

Horford and Smart played a ton in last year's playoffs. Rozier had 277 minutes last year, and 99 the year before. Jaylen had 215. That's not nothing, and is more than token minutes.

Who cares about regular season minutes? The playoffs are a different beast.

Neither Rozier nor Jaylen cracked the top seven in Boston's rotation last year and their conference finals games with Cleveland were glorified exhibitions outside of game three where they played a combined 15 minutes. You are welcome to assign value to that experience but I think it's a real stretch. I'm not saying the playoffs are the same level of intensity as the regular season, but given the choice between overall experience and 'playoff experience' I'll take the latter every time. Basketball is basketball and to me it was clear that Boston's players came out of the womb more ready for that fight.

 

[Dogdeacon]

They weren't down in game 1. And I am not saying he should have received heavy minutes, but no burn at all? He also recorded a triple double in one of those 13 games. You can't find 10 minutes over 5 games for the number 1 pick? He needs confidence and his coach just told him he has no confidence in him for the world to see.

But it is true that the coach has no confidence in him supported by his season! It was simple risk-reward for Fultz:
A. No way they were playing him in Boston, zero point zero chance. Crowd would have ate him alive and players would have immediately gotten a switch onto Tatum where the #1 pick is posterized for eternity. Then someone would edited that poster to have Danny Ainge smiling in the stands, maybe put a head in hands Colangelo in there too.
B. So now we are in Philly with must win games, maybe they could have put Fultz in Game 3 with the big lead. Risk-reward is simple fact that Fultz was playing garbage minutes in regular season, that's where his stats and b__s_ triple double came from (in a 40pt win over Bucks in which Giannis & Middleton played combined 38 mins while Sterling Brown [the actor?] played 33 mins vs the 4 minutes Sterling got in playoffs). They knew that Fultz wasn't ready to compete against front lines of other teams in regular season, no way could he have held his own in much more competitive, faster, playoffs (look at his minutes/stats in Miami series, ok in blowout, sucked 0/3 with a turnover in 5 minutes in a loss then 2 dnps).
C. Only counter argument is when BBrown went with Simmons in 4thQ amidst the great game (2?) from McConnell. I supported that for giving Simmons the reps and big picture standpoint. So could make a case to give Fultz some reps. Difference is Simmons had earned those minutes with his regular season play. And with Simmons there was a chance his regular season dominance returned and he could be a part of propelling Sixers past Celtics and beyond. Neither true for Fultz.
D. Fultz over Tatum is a joke, owners/GM might have even instructed BB to keep Fultz on the bench to save embarrassment. And of course now they can mitigate the damage with predictable "he's still injured" stories. Shaky.

 

[champs99and04]

Agreed. Facts are people are really excited to blow smoke up Philly's behind b/c of the excitement over the process* and seeing the potential in Embid and Simmons. But it was premature and if the Heat were just slightly better a few bounces would have made that a much closer series. Yes equally the Sixers lost in 5 due to a couple seemingly random moments (i.e. Bellinelli's feet on line) but the Celtics consistently executed better down the stretch & Horford played the biggest role in a lot of that. Big Al's got more playoff minutes probably than every Sixer not named JJ Reddick combined.

*I still don't get why people love this story and are rewarding Philly for what they did. Yes it was smart from an acquire talent standpoint, but they threw away 4 seasons yet still operated, charged admission, televised, went on road for those sham games that they were orchestrated to lose. Encouraging this behavior makes for non-competitive basketball. Imagine in CBB if UConn had a conference opponent that decimated their roster for multiple years because it allowed them to get better recruits. We'd be absolutely bu__s_ over that sort of strategy, legislate it away and absolutely not reward or admire it. The system is broken, why applaud the thief that steals from the unattended candy dish?

They won 16 in a row to finish out the season, much of that coming without one of the best players in the league. Bear in mind they also posted a better point differential than a Boston team that had Kyrie for 60 games.

I guess I just don't understand the desire to bring out the kiddie gloves when it comes to assessing this team. We're not measuring them with the same scale we use to measure most young teams. There was every reason to expect them to win that series and they fell flat on their face. Losing like they did would have been an acceptable result against Hayward and Kyrie or even just Kyrie, but for one of this generation's best big man prospects to get outplayed by Al Horford is a huge L no matter how you slice it.

 

[Waquoit]

Neither Rozier nor Jaylen cracked the top seven in Boston's rotation last year and their conference finals games with Cleveland were glorified exhibitions outside of game three where they played a combined 15 minutes.

Why are you making a point about playoff experience last year while totally ignoring the playoff experience they have this year?

 

[Dogdeacon]

They won 16 in a row to finish out the season, much of that coming without one of the best players in the league. Bear in mind they also posted a better point differential than a Boston team that had Kyrie for 60 games.

I guess I just don't understand the desire to bring out the kiddie gloves when it comes to assessing this team. We're not measuring them with the same scale we use to measure most young teams. There was every reason to expect them to win that series and they fell flat on their face. Losing like they did would have been an acceptable result against Hayward and Kyrie or even just Kyrie, but for one of this generation's best big man prospects to get outplayed by Al Horford is a huge L no matter how you slice it.

I don't think its kid gloves, to me it was expected playoff comeuppance for inexperienced or young (whatever) principals that need the NBA playoff baptism that almost every team/star suffers thru. So I'm kind of reacting to the consensus view that put Philly in the Eastern finals before they'd done anything similar.

The 16 in a row was versus crap competition: Knicks, Nets, Hornets, Magic, TWolves (home, no Butler), Nuggets, Knicks again, Hawks, Hornets again, Nets again, Detroit, Cleveland (2pt win at home - only good win so far), Mavs, Hawks again, Bucks by 40 in last game of season b--s_ triple double for Fultz. Yes its still hard impressive to win 16 in a row vs NBA comp, but all but the Wolves and Cavs were tanking. The Cavs win is likely the only game where they weren't favored and did impressively beat the Cavs to relegate them to 4th. Although as it turns out the Cavs benefitted by facing the Raptors to whom LeBron is Daddy.

 

[superjohn]

Raptors fire coach Dwane Casey after franchise-best record, second-round sweep to Cavs

 

[Yardigan]

Raptors fire coach Dwane Casey after franchise-best record, second-round sweep to Cavs

Given the inevitability of this...the COY award is even more whack... The voting coaches couldn't see this coming?

 

[champs99and04]

Why are you making a point about playoff experience last year while totally ignoring the playoff experience they have this year?

Because I was arguing the point that their experience from last year helped this year.

 

[champs99and04]

I don't think its kid gloves, to me it was expected playoff comeuppance for inexperienced or young (whatever) principals that need the NBA playoff baptism that almost every team/star suffers thru. So I'm kind of reacting to the consensus view that put Philly in the Eastern finals before they'd done anything similar.

The 16 in a row was versus crap competition: Knicks, Nets, Hornets, Magic, TWolves (home, no Butler), Nuggets, Knicks again, Hawks, Hornets again, Nets again, Detroit, Cleveland (2pt win at home - only good win so far), Mavs, Hawks again, Bucks by 40 in last game of season b--s_ triple double for Fultz. Yes its still hard impressive to win 16 in a row vs NBA comp, but all but the Wolves and Cavs were tanking. The Cavs win is likely the only game where they weren't favored and did impressively beat the Cavs to relegate them to 4th. Although as it turns out the Cavs benefitted by facing the Raptors to whom LeBron is Daddy.

Perhaps you were right and I overrated them coming into the postseason. Even if that's the case, I think it says something that your expectations were so low. I don't dispute the concept of the playoff baptism so much as I question whether the conventional baptism that the normal championship teams undergo occurred here. It wasn't the 2010 Thunder losing to the Kobe/Gasol Lakers in 6. It wasn't LeBron losing to the Billups/Hamilton Pistons in 7. It wasn't the Magic getting swept by Houston in '95. This was a team of two superstars and solid role players losing to a depleted roster that was basically the same age as them. Baptism by fire would have been losing to the Warriors in 5. The fact that they lost when they did and how they did tells me they might not be on the trajectory I thought they were.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Given the inevitability of this...the COY award is even more whack... The voting coaches couldn't see this coming?

This is two years of embarrassment in a row. Last year's playoffs invalidated Westbrook's MVP before he even got it and this Coach of the Year winner defrocked 2 days later. They gotta re-think the timing of their votes and with players/coaches acknowledging that a certain amount of pacing is required over the course of the season somehow factor in the playoffs - especially for a coaching award (Is NCAA COY regular season only or include at least conf tourneys?).

I guess for MVP they want to incentivize and reward outstanding regular season play. But it undermines their stars. In the end it actually hurt Westbrook's reputation to win the MVP, everyone loves to disprove his value now. And for LeBron, the casual observer doesn't have as much respect and doesn't implicitly know what everyone in the league does. He's the most valuable & best player in the league at least until someone knocks the Eastern Conference Championship Battery off his shoulder.

 

[4UConn]

Celts fan here, hoping we see the Kevin Love of the last two seasons and not the T-Wolves version we saw last series. LeBron is what he is but a revived Love with fresh legs could be the difference.

Lebron will get his points, but the difference maker maybe how well the Celts defend Kevin Love.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

I think the Cs should straight up not guard Lebron and see if he himself can score enough points to beat them.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Perhaps you were right and I overrated them coming into the postseason. Even if that's the case, I think it says something that your expectations were so low. I don't dispute the concept of the playoff baptism so much as I question whether the conventional baptism that the normal championship teams undergo occurred here. It wasn't the 2010 Thunder losing to the Kobe/Gasol Lakers in 6. It wasn't LeBron losing to the Billups/Hamilton Pistons in 7. It wasn't the Magic getting swept by Houston in '95. This was a team of two superstars and solid role players losing to a depleted roster that was basically the same age as them. Baptism by fire would have been losing to the Warriors in 5. The fact that they lost when they did and how they did tells me they might not be on the trajectory I thought they were.

Yes but:
A. Embid sat TWO YEARS, was on a severe minute restriction last year and somewhat this year including being babied down the stretch due to FULTZ hurting his wee cheeckbones (sorry). If Embid was stronger in the 4th Q this woulda been a 6 or 7 game series.
B. Likewise Simmons skipped his first year and just played one regular season. He's never won anything in the US and when you combine this with his glaringly obvious shooting deficiency he was VERY beatable in a playoff situation.
People didn't see these things going in because they are SUPERSTARS and the potential is there, but both players had very clear physical-basketball related limitations that were going to be tested cuz that's what happens in the playoffs.