NBA Finals Thread - Celtics vs Mavericks

[auror]

He can barely move out there. We all know he's not the fastest guy around but he's in slow motion these playoffs. Whatever percentage you want to put it at is fine but he's seriously compromised. He legit can't even move for loose balls that are right by him and he's saving what he has for offense and abandoning defense. He needs to get a lot better on defense but I haven't seen him move like this on either end of the court in my years watching him.

Credit to the Celtics, they are loaded with good perimeter defenders but he's nowhere near healthy. He has a bum knee, a bum, ankle, and he's getting shots for his chest injury.

I think this is a pretty nuanced subject. Doncic has been AWFUL on D this series, as you say. This compilation is from before the game and he was even worse in this game. .

I think all these things are true
1) He's banged up. Definitely.
2) But he's always been incredibly bad at defense. I was ragging on him for it and saying Tatum's defense was comparatively more better over Luka's D than Luka's offense is better than Tatum's O 4 years ago.
3) It's hard for him to hold up in the playoffs without getting hurt because he has such a big usage and frankly he plays at too heavy a weight. And also gets tired at that usage/weight and suffers defensively.
4) He's extremely valuable due to that floor-raising offensive usage.
5) I don't think that heliocentric style of offense is effective at winning championships compared to a more balanced approach. You could give White and Horford and Holiday to the Mavs and their ball movement would not be as good and he would still be a weak link who would be targeted on D. That matters in the playoffs.
6) The Mavs play that way because their talent isn't as good.
7) But when they had better talent like Jalen Brunson, they didn't recognize it or reach his full potential due to Luka having the ball so much. Brunson averaged 16 points in the playoffs for the Mavs with Doncic and 30 in his career in the playoffs without him (32 per in 3 games with the Mavs without Luka).

 

[superjohn]

I mean a win is a win but yikes

I hate that the Celts went from looking like a dominant champion to a choker benefiting from a DQ in a flash

It will probably be enough for a sweep, style points don't matter.

 

[auror]

Not a fan of either team. Don’t think Luka’s 6th was a block, Brown extended.

Tatum clearly fouled Luka on a layup and was sent into the crowd and no call.

The refs literally reviewed the call and it was a block. I like how your take is just "the refs don't know how to interpret the rules as well as me even when watching multiple slow motion replays" lol.

 

[HooperScooper]

One of the most egregious moving screens you will ever see, Josh Green channeling the spirit of Larry Allen

I was saying that during the game. How is that legal? Holiday should have stood his ground and got pushed over and then they would have had to call it.

 

[nomar]

He can barely move out there. We all know he's not the fastest guy around but he's in slow motion these playoffs. Whatever percentage you want to put it at is fine but he's seriously compromised. He legit can't even move for loose balls that are right by him and he's saving what he has for offense and abandoning defense. He needs to get a lot better on defense but I haven't seen him move like this on either end of the court in my years watching him.

Credit to the Celtics, they are loaded with good perimeter defenders but he's nowhere near healthy. He has a bum knee, a bum, ankle, and he's getting shots for his chest injury.

The respective things we are saying are not mutually exclusive

 

[CardiacAndre7]

The refs literally reviewed the call and it was a block. I like how your take is just "the refs don't know how to interpret the rules as well as me even when watching multiple slow motion replays" lol.

That’s not my take, you’re putting words in my mouth. I just disagreed with the call, and it’s difficult to overturn those borderline calls.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

I was saying that during the game. How is that legal? Holiday should have stood his ground and got pushed over and then they would have had to call it.

He didn’t and that’s why it wasn’t called. He just back shuffled with him, that’s not really a moving screen if Holiday is willingly moving with him.

 

[aceboon]

I'm sure the injuries don't help but Luka is also moving slower because he's fat as (bleep), look at how much slimmer he looked back then. Not the Celtics fault he can't put the beers down.

 

[auror]

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Tatum is shooting 36% against an outmatched team that is mediocre defensively, at best. He is one of the least clutch superstars in the NBA.

As for the Mavericks, upsets are fun until a team that kind of sucks gets to the championship.

 

[willie99]

Luka is the biggest crybaby in today's NBA. His 5th and 6th fouls were fouls. I smart man doesn't risk getting disqualified on a 50/50 call at best. Butt Luka went Luka, fell on the floor and cried

Cryrie is pathetic. I was laughing when we were being told the Mavs had the two best closers in basketball.

The Mavs need to make several roster enhancements to compete with the C's

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Luka is the biggest crybaby in today's NBA. His 5th and 6th fouls were fouls. I smart man doesn't risk getting disqualified on a 50/50 call at best. Butt Luka went Luka, fell on the floor and cried

Cryrie is pathetic. I was laughing when we were being told the Mavs had the two best closers in basketball.

The Mavs need to make several roster enhancements to compete with the C's

I have never liked Kyrie and Luka is out of shape and kind of a ball hog. The Mavericks are probably the 4th or 5th best team in the West. This entire playoff is a good case for cutting back the number of regular season games to keep the starters fresh for the playoffs.

 

[Woodson]

Wowwww lol. Savage

 

[Matrim55]

The Celtics are on track to have the greatest defensive postseason of all-time:

• The Mavs have yet to score 100 points in this finals series, after averaging 118 during the regular season.
• They have held teams to 15 points less than their regular season average in 11 of their 17 games so far.
• They have held teams to, on average, 15 points below their regular season scoring average throughout the playoffs so far.

Before this year, the most a team has held their opponents below their scoring averages in a playoffs run was 12.4 points — by Russell’s Celtics in 1964. Unless this team manages to give up 150 in the next couple games, they are poised to shatter that record.

 

[REB1094]

Luka is getting on par with Embiid as completely unwatchable players

Insanely talented, can dominate any game at any time they decide to, but they spend 75% of their time throwing themselves to the floor and crying to the refs about it

Watching these two teams is night and day. Celtics have 4 playmakers on the floor at any time and share the ball really well. Mavs take turns playing iso between two players. Fun when it works painful when it doesn’t. Looking like it’ll be a sweep, Cs in 5 at most

 

[HuskyHawk]

He’s an awesome offensive player but I’d love to see what he’d look like if he took this seriously. He’s a fat traffic cone on one side of the court and he spends half the game begging for calls.

Absolutely, and against most teams there's someone they can hide him against and let him play free safety, which he's good at. He's being exposed a bit against a team that always has five scorers. He's also the biggest whiner and flopper I've seen (and yes, JT is also a whiner but not flopper).

That foul @CardiacAndre7 mentioned? Replays showed he wasn't even touched, he essentially dove out of bounds and threw up his arms hoping for a call. The Brown block/charge was close, but correctly called. Meanwhile Tatum got fouled repeatedly and couldn't get a call.

 

[tzznandrew]

and yes, JT is also a whiner but not flopper

To his credit, he's largely toned down the whining this post-season.

On the one hand, it's easy to tone it down when you are winning, on the other hand, Dallas' strategy is to double and be physical with him. It's a strategy designed to make him frustrated. It has largely worked: though he hasn't whined all that much, he has missed even the open shots he's gotten. But he's trusted his teammates more than he has in the past, so it's not going to matter in the end.

 

[HuskyHawk]

To his credit, he's largely toned down the whining this post-season.

On the one hand, it's easy to tone it down when you are winning, on the other hand, Dallas' strategy is to double and be physical with him. It's a strategy designed to make him frustrated. It has largely worked: though he hasn't whined all that much, he has missed even the open shots he's gotten. But he's trusted his teammates more than he has in the past, so it's not going to matter in the end.

He was whining against Miami, and I think Joe may have talked to him. Just as we saw in the NCAA tournament, the NBA is just letting them play for the most part. He's complained a lot less since that series.

 

[Mr. French]

The refs literally reviewed the call and it was a block. I like how your take is just "the refs don't know how to interpret the rules as well as me even when watching multiple slow motion replays" lol.

I thought Luka got fouled a few times and there was some questionable stuff, but not that one. That was a block and it was dumb of him with 5 fouls. He was playing frustrated all game after the first.

He’s gotta grow in some areas. He’s probably never gonna be Kawhi, and he’s good defensively with his hands, but he needs to be better staying in front. Thats not debatable.

I saw a clip from him in the bubble, he’s quick and agile…he’s gotta shave 20 pounds and get healthy again.

I’m the biggest Luka fan, but he’s got to be better there.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Absolutely, and against most teams there's someone they can hide him against and let him play free safety, which he's good at. He's being exposed a bit against a team that always has five scorers. He's also the biggest whiner and flopper I've seen (and yes, JT is also a whiner but not flopper).

That foul @CardiacAndre7 mentioned? Replays showed he wasn't even touched, he essentially dove out of bounds and threw up his arms hoping for a call. The Brown block/charge was close, but correctly called. Meanwhile Tatum got fouled repeatedly and couldn't get a call.

Tatum obviously fouled him on that. I’m fine with you disagreeing on some others, but if you can’t see that one it’s hard to discuss. Everyone commentating agreed he was fouled there.

 

[auror]

The Celtics are on track to have the greatest defensive postseason of all-time:

• The Mavs have yet to score 100 points in this finals series, after averaging 118 during the regular season.
• They have held teams to 15 points less than their regular season average in 11 of their 17 games so far.
• They have held teams to, on average, 15 points below their regular season scoring average throughout the playoffs so far.

Before this year, the most a team has held their opponents below their scoring averages in a playoffs run was 12.4 points — by Russell’s Celtics in 1964. Unless this team manages to give up 150 in the next couple games, they are poised to shatter that record.

Injuries to the opponents best players helped a bit.

 

[gtcam]

Simple - the Mavs are a two man team and only a two man team. Their other players are not NBA caliber starters. The Celtics are extremely deep and every player they bring in contributes positively 90% of the time.
The Cs remind me of the 2023-24 UConn team.

 

[Waquoit]

Injuries to the opponents best players helped a bit.

You sound like those guys last year saying UConn never played anyone. They were the best by far. Same with the C's. The undisputed class of the league.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

It’s funny how the narrative went from “the Celtics aren’t going to be ready for the step up in competition” to “well Dallas is banged up so what do you expect?”

Meanwhile the Celtics are going to win 80 games this year.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

It’s funny how the narrative went from “the Celtics aren’t going to be ready for the step up in competition” to “well Dallas is banged up so what do you expect?”

Meanwhile the Celtics are going to win 80 games this year.

I don’t think that’s the narrative. The narrative is definitely more focused on Luka’s awful defense. Celtics have way more options and Mavs role players besides Lively have been awful.

The Celtics certainly have gotten lucky with opponent injuries up to this point, there is no denying that. But they’d be in the same spot regardless, maybe would have played ~3 more games.

 

[auror]

You sound like those guys last year saying UConn never played anyone. They were the best by far. Same with the C's. The undisputed class of the league.

It's about the specific stat of "holding opponent to less than regular season scoring average", which specifically cares about the opponent. So when Jimmy Butler, Donovan Mitchell, and Tyrese Haliburton all miss multiple games or the whole series, the best offensive player for each team, that matters.

 

[Waquoit]

It's about the specific stat of "holding opponent to less than regular season scoring average", which specifically cares about the opponent. So when Jimmy Butler, Donovan Mitchell, and Tyrese Haliburton all miss multiple games or the whole series, the best offensive player for each team, that matters.

Not really. You can only beat who's in front of you and the C's are steamrolling the field. And they're doing in with a star of their own on the shelf. Look how much better they are when he plays. Haters gotta hate.

 

[UConnStats]

It’s funny how the narrative went from “the Celtics aren’t going to be ready for the step up in competition” to “well Dallas is banged up so what do you expect?”

Meanwhile the Celtics are going to win 80 games this year.

This narrative and the ones about Brown winning MVP over Tatum are so inconsequential in the long run.

For example nobody is going to care that KD won Finals MVP over Curry, and nobody is talking about the Warriors’ paths to the finals from their championship years.

Luckily it seems like Tatum, Brown, & company know that and have stayed unselfish.

 

[Waquoit]

Cedric Maxwell won Finals MVP and nobody gave Bird any grief.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Not really. You can only beat who's in front of you and the C's are steamrolling the field. And they're doing in with a star of their own on the shelf. Look how much better they are when he plays. Haters gotta hate.

It’s not hate, it’s just what it is. Porzingis is great and has a huge impact, but he is their 3rd/4th/5th best player (He White and Jrue are so close imo).

The teams they played were missing the outright best player. Again, wouldn’t have changed much, but it isn’t a fair comparison.