NBA Finals Thread - Celtics vs Mavericks

[Waquoit]

Perhaps, but it seemed like everyone knew Milwaukee was done with Jrue. And even their fans were ready to move on.

Who needs a defensive star averaging 19 points and zero turnovers in the Finals anyway?

 

[nomar]

He's missed a lot of good shots. He's getting into the lane at will because Luka's been a turnstyle. He missed like 4 driving layups he normally hit by shooting too hard.

He's been shooting as bad as possible, but most of it doesn't feel like the late game Celtics ** offense. I think it's a combination of the Mavs selling out to stop him and him not rising fully to the moment. At least he has contributed defensively and elsewhere on offense. He has 20 rebounds and 17 assists over the two games.

They're putting 2-3 guys on him an awful lot but, still, he has missed a lot of good shots.

He still does take some dumb shots where he fades away or kicks his legs out instead of just going up straight but I think the Mavs have gotten pretty lucky that he's been missing. Kyrie's also missed a lot of makeable shots.

I'm still not counting any chickens. Need to win one in Dallas. If we win the next one, warm up the bus.

 

[nomar]

Who needs a defensive star averaging 19 points and zero turnovers in the Finals anyway?

Man, what an awesome trade. I remember somebody bagging on him saying he was bad at shooting in the clutch and I said, well, we don't need him to be a #1 or #2 option -- he's going to be #4 or #5.

An underrated part of his game is finishing inside against bigger players. So good.

KP, Jrue and White were 3 ridiculous trades. Getting Al back wasn't too shabby either.

 

[nomar]

I didn’t see the last game so maybe context is important, but he took the most shots. More than even Luka lol

It’s crazy he’s taking the most shots, not shooting it well while also not “forcing” shots. If he’s not forcing shots he should be super efficient with the level of talent he is.

Might I suggest you try watching a game rather than pontificating on s--- you haven't watched?

 

[bjc42]

They're putting 2-3 guys on him an awful lot but, still, he has missed a lot of good shots.

He still does take some dumb shots where he fades away or kicks his legs out instead of just going up straight but I think the Mavs have gotten pretty lucky that he's been missing. Kyrie's also missed a lot of makeable shots.

I'm still not counting any chickens. Need to win one in Dallas. If we win the next one, warm up the bus.

I assume you're a celtics fan, right?

 

[nelsonmuntz]

He's not afraid to make a move.

What is there to be afraid of when other GMs will make trades that are obvious, massive upgrades for the Celtics?

 

[nomar]

I assume you're a celtics fan, right?

Correct

 

[tzznandrew]

What is there to be afraid of when other GMs will make trades that are obvious, massive upgrades for the Celtics?

The White trade stands out as an absolute robbery.

The Porzingis trade was a gamble.
The Jrue trade made sense for Portland and Boston, but Celtics fans understood that Time Lord and Brogdon just wouldn't play.

 

[nomar]

What is there to be afraid of when other GMs will make trades that are obvious, massive upgrades for the Celtics?

The White deal was not an obvious massive upgrade. I liked it but some Celtics fans whined about it. "Oh my god we gave up a 2028 pick swap!!!!"

I absolutely loved the Porzingis deal but others were attached to Smart and/or concerned about KP being injury prone and not being committed to a long-term contract.

Jrue seemed like a no-brainer, agreed on that.

In general, though, Stevens has exhibited a willingness to take chances that Ainge wouldn't take. It was as if Ainge needed every trade to be the Pierce-Garnett trade. Not every trade has to be like that or Herschel Walker. (Although he did it again with Gobert.) Not only was Ainge paralyzed but other teams didn't want to deal with him because they knew he wouldn't do a deal unless it was obviously one-sided in favor of Boston.

 

[bjc42]

Correct

cool, I am too. Huskies and celtics sure do make for lots of championships

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

Might I suggest you try watching a game rather than pontificating on s--- you haven't watched?

As I said earlier I’ve been out of town for the bday weekend. But it’s been following the trend that Tatum has had for most of this playoffs anyways. Being super inefficient offensively while still cruising to a win anyways lol

 

[Waquoit]

What is there to be afraid of when other GMs will make trades that are obvious, massive upgrades for the Celtics?

But somehow these trades never materialized for Danny Ainge after he acquired all those assets.

 

[Dogdeacon]

That's no reason to hate Walsh. It's not his fault. I can't blame Boston either. Similar players, but Andre was more experienced and better coached when we played Arkansas. Walsh was a freshman. Either player is a gamble, but Boston cannot have a non-shooter in their offense. Hope they both exceed expectations in the NBA.

It’s petty and mostly irrational but it’s sports and I don’t think I’m impacting the kid to this point.

 

[nomar]

cool, I am too. Huskies and celtics sure do make for lots of championships

Some more recently than others!

 

[nelsonmuntz]

The White deal was not an obvious massive upgrade. I liked it but some Celtics fans whined about it. "Oh my god we gave up a 2028 pick swap!!!!"

I absolutely loved the Porzingis deal but others were attached to Smart and/or concerned about KP being injury prone and not being committed to a long-term contract.

Jrue seemed like a no-brainer, agreed on that.

In general, though, Stevens has exhibited a willingness to take chances that Ainge wouldn't take. It was as if Ainge needed every trade to be the Pierce-Garnett trade. Not every trade has to be like that or Herschel Walker. (Although he did it again with Gobert.) Not only was Ainge paralyzed but other teams didn't want to deal with him because they knew he wouldn't do a deal unless it was obviously one-sided in favor of Boston.

Ainge is a very good GM, Stevens is amazing.

Getting Porzingis for an aging, undersized, poor shooting head case was robbery.

 

[HuskyHawk]

The White deal was not an obvious massive upgrade. I liked it but some Celtics fans whined about it. "Oh my god we gave up a 2028 pick swap!!!!"

I absolutely loved the Porzingis deal but others were attached to Smart and/or concerned about KP being injury prone and not being committed to a long-term contract.

Jrue seemed like a no-brainer, agreed on that.

In general, though, Stevens has exhibited a willingness to take chances that Ainge wouldn't take. It was as if Ainge needed every trade to be the Pierce-Garnett trade. Not every trade has to be like that or Herschel Walker. (Although he did it again with Gobert.) Not only was Ainge paralyzed but other teams didn't want to deal with him because they knew he wouldn't do a deal unless it was obviously one-sided in favor of Boston.

You're right. White was a mediocre old college player with one good season at Colorado. He hadn't done much to stand out at San Antonio. This was Brad having superior player evaluation skills and knowing what his team needed. Even the first year, White was decent and a very good switchable defender, but didn't really show the offense he has since.

Jrue was a great move to fill the gaping hole they had moving Smart. But let's not forget, the hole was there because Brogdon, a younger guy who came in with near all-star credentials, didn't pan out. His scoring was ISO based and his defense was sub-par. Bad job bringing him in.

KP was an obvious need, not just because Al is old. JB and JT will try to take over games if the defense is shutting things down, and the efficiency drops. KP is that reliable outlet scorer, inside or out. He's always there as a target. They also needed the rim protection. Al is phenomenal on the perimeter, but not great now in the paint at this age.

 

[Matrim55]

As I said earlier I’ve been out of town for the bday weekend. But it’s been following the trend that Tatum has had for most of this playoffs anyways. Being super inefficient offensively while still cruising to a win anyways lol

He's actually been the most efficient playmaker in the postseason out of the pick-and-roll, which is significant given this is the spread pick-and-roll era. And Boston's ORtg with him on the court in the playoffs is 122, which craters down to 107.6 when he's not.

But I understand casuals aren't able to comprehend anything more complex than FG%.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

He's actually been the most efficient playmaker in the postseason out of the pick-and-roll, which is significant given this is the spread pick-and-roll era. And Boston's ORtg with him on the court in the playoffs is 122, which craters down to 107.6 when he's not.

But I understand casuals aren't able to comprehend anything more complex than FG%.

I, too, could be great in the pick and roll passing it to the best roster in the NBA.

 

[Matrim55]

You're right. White was a mediocre old college player with one good season at Colorado. He hadn't done much to stand out at San Antonio. This was Brad having superior player evaluation skills and knowing what his team needed. Even the first year, White was decent and a very good switchable defender, but didn't really show the offense he has since.

Jrue was a great move to fill the gaping hole they had moving Smart. But let's not forget, the hole was there because Brogdon, a younger guy who came in with near all-star credentials, didn't pan out. His scoring was ISO based and his defense was sub-par. Bad job bringing him in.

KP was an obvious need, not just because Al is old. JB and JT will try to take over games if the defense is shutting things down, and the efficiency drops. KP is that reliable outlet scorer, inside or out. He's always there as a target. They also needed the rim protection. Al is phenomenal on the perimeter, but not great now in the paint at this age.

I actually disagree with a lot of the characterizations of the White & Brodgon trades. My arguments:

- White was an analytics darling that everyone in the league knew was great. We gave up essentially two first-rounders, a recent lotto pick who still had some upside (didn't pan out, but still), and a rotation player. That's a good haul for the Spurs.

The real win there was Brad not feeling like he had to beat the other team's brains out in order to get the deal done -- he doesn't mind if the headline is "both teams win."

What turned this into a one-sided Celtics win were two things:

• We got hot as soon as we landed white, which made the '22 first-rounder we gave up much worse.
• White turned into a 40% 3-point shooter.

That second part is especially relevant right now given how scared he was to shoot the ball vs. the Dubs in the '22 finals.

- Bringing Brogdon in was actually a very good job. He was 6th Man of the Year and was absolutely massive in last year's playoffs before he got hurt. He's the one who kept us in Game 6 vs. the Sixers before Tatum snapped out of it and went berserk. And then, because he'd been so good, he became a key piece in the Jrue trade.

Again, this was a fairly even deal: we got him for two rotation pieces (Theis & Nesmith) and a first-rounder.

---------------------

In all, it's worth remembering that we'd have made three straight finals (this being No. 3) with even a little bit of injury luck last year. I think Danny put us in a position to be this kind of team because he drafted so well for basically a decade straight. But it's been Brad's willingness to go in for 50/50 trades that have upside for both sides that's actually gotten us over the hump.

 

[Matrim55]

I, too, could be great in the pick and roll passing it to the best roster in the NBA.

Maybe Brad should sign you as his backup then, because as I pointed out, the offense craters without him.

But again: this is stuff that's hard for a casual to understand.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

Maybe Brad should sign you as his backup then, because as I pointed out, the offense craters without him.

But again: this is stuff that's hard for a casual to understand.

Jaylen Brown was also on that list. It’s a function of the offense and roster. Not of the player’s actual skill.

Tatum might be the only actual 4 on the roster so that makes sense. They are either going to Al Horford or a catch and shoot guy that’s probably actually a 3.

 

[nomar]

I actually disagree with a lot of the characterizations of the White & Brodgon trades. My arguments:

- White was an analytics darling that everyone in the league knew was great. We gave up essentially two first-rounders, a recent lotto pick who still had some upside (didn't pan out, but still), and a rotation player. That's a good haul for the Spurs.

The real win there was Brad not feeling like he had to beat the other team's brains out in order to get the deal done -- he doesn't mind if the headline is "both teams win."

What turned this into a one-sided Celtics win were two things:

• We got hot as soon as we landed white, which made the '22 first-rounder we gave up much worse.
• White turned into a 40% 3-point shooter.

That second part is especially relevant right now given how scared he was to shoot the ball vs. the Dubs in the '22 finals.

- Bringing Brogdon in was actually a very good job. He was 6th Man of the Year and was absolutely massive in last year's playoffs before he got hurt. He's the one who kept us in Game 6 vs. the Sixers before Tatum snapped out of it and went berserk. And then, because he'd been so good, he became a key piece in the Jrue trade.

Again, this was a fairly even deal: we got him for two rotation pieces (Theis & Nesmith) and a first-rounder.

---------------------

In all, it's worth remembering that we'd have made three straight finals (this being No. 3) with even a little bit of injury luck last year. I think Danny put us in a position to be this kind of team because he drafted so well for basically a decade straight. But it's been Brad's willingness to go in for 50/50 trades that have upside for both sides that's actually gotten us over the hump.

You said all that better than I did.

I agree getting Brogdon was the right move at the time. The fact that moving him for Jrue was a no brainer doesn't mean it was a mistake getting him in the first place.

 

[Matrim55]

Jaylen Brown was also on that list. It’s a function of the offense and roster. Not of the player’s actual skill.

And yet the team's ORtg craters without Tatum, and actually goes up without Brown.

Maybe there's something else at play that casuals can't quite grasp!

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

And yet the team's ORtg craters without Tatum, and actually goes up without Brown.

Maybe there's something else at play that casuals can't quite grasp!

Edited a second part in lol

 

[bballgrda]

And yet the team's ORtg craters without Tatum, and actually goes up without Brown.

Maybe there's something else at play that casuals can't quite grasp!

Calling him a casual is a much nicer word than I would use