Muffet McGraw wins

[CL82]

I don't know that I'm qualified to speak on attire, but I do note that the new and improved JPM comes with Karate Chop Action™.

 

[bballnut90]

So you're saying she was the second best coach in the country even during that portion of the last ten seasons when Summit was still coaching? That's even crazier than speculating about how many times she wins a NC if UConn didn't exist.

She didn't get the job done when it counted the most in the Final Four, and she lost in the championship game even when UConn was already out of her way. The rest of your analysis would lead to the conclusion that despite having unlimited resources, she's not a particularly great recruiter, which is perhaps the most important part of a coach's job.

Who would you say is the second best coach?

By that logic the only good coaches in the last 20 years are Pat and Geno.

Going back ten years, Pat only coached for 4 seasons (5 if you count 2012 when it was Holly running the show), and in those years she won 1 title with Parker, then Tennessee significantly dropped off as a program her last few years as her illness started affecting her. No way is she the second best coach the last ten years.

Mulkey only took Baylor to 1 Final Four in three years when she had Griner and Sims together. That's underachieving in a much greater way than Muffet ever has.

Tara V has 0 titles in her last 9 Final Fours despite having more talent on her 2008-2012 teams (Ogwumikes, Appel, Pohlen, Pederson, Wiggins, etc) than Notre Dame has ever had. This also stretches back to the mid 90s when they lost three straight years with loaded rosters, too.

Brenda Frese couldn't get her program back to a Final Four In 2007, 2008 or 2009 after winning in 2006 with a lineup made up with all underclassmen.

So who is the 2nd best coach then? Gary Blair or Mulkey since they're the only ones who have won a title?

 

[UConnNick]

Who would you say is the second best coach?

By that logic the only good coaches in the last 20 years are Pat and Geno.

Going back ten years, Pat only coached for 4 seasons (5 if you count 2012 when it was Holly running the show), and in those years she won 1 title with Parker, then Tennessee significantly dropped off as a program her last few years as her illness started affecting her. No way is she the second best coach the last ten years.

Mulkey only took Baylor to 1 Final Four in three years when she had Griner and Sims together. That's underachieving in a much greater way than Muffet ever has.

Tara V has 0 titles in her last 9 Final Fours despite having more talent on her 2008-2012 teams (Ogwumikes, Appel, Pohlen, Pederson, Wiggins, etc) than Notre Dame has ever had. This also stretches back to the mid 90s when they lost three straight years with loaded rosters, too.

Brenda Frese couldn't get her program back to a Final Four In 2007, 2008 or 2009 after winning in 2006 with a lineup made up with all underclassmen.

So who is the 2nd best coach then? Gary Blair or Mulkey since they're the only ones who have won a title?

Summit is the second best of all time, period. The rest of the coaches you refer to are light years behind Auriemma and Summit.

You seem to want to limit the discussion to the last ten years. OK, I'll play. There's Geno and a Grand Canyon between him and the next most successful coach during that particular era, which is Mulkey. The numbers don't lie. Muffet hasn't won since 2001. She's ancient history if you want to limit the analysis to the last ten seasons, sort of like VanDerveer.

 

[bballnut90]

Summit is the second best of all time, period. The rest of the coaches you refer to are light years behind Auriemma and Summit.

You seem to want to limit the discussion to the last ten years. OK, I'll play. There's Geno and a Grand Canyon between him and the next most successful coach during that particular era, which is Mulkey. The numbers don't lie. Muffet hasn't won since 2001. She's ancient history if you want to limit the analysis to the last ten seasons, sort of like VanDerveer.

You're right--numbers don't lie. Mulkey has led Baylor to 2 Final Fours in the last ten years. Muffet has led her team to 5 in the same timeframe. Tara has 6 Final Fours in the last ten year. I think you're on your own in calling either coach "ancient history."

 

[UConnNick]

You're right--numbers don't lie. Mulkey has led Baylor to 2 Final Fours in the last ten years. Muffet has led her team to 5 in the same timeframe. Tara has 6 Final Fours in the last ten year. I think you're on your own in calling either coach "ancient history."

You're intent on basing everything on FF appearances, not wins. McGraw's last win was in 2001, 16 years ago. VanDerveer's was in 1992, 25 years ago. That's ancient history. Coming in second, third or fourth means you finished the same as 349 other teams in NCAA DI, without the championship trophy. Do that enough and folks begin wondering why you can't get over the hump. Winning the trophy is what counts.

 

[mhshuskies]

That's crazy logic. Trying to predict how many titles other coaches would have won if UConn didn't exist?

The reason I don't consider McGraw to be anywhere remotely in the same stratosphere with Auriemma and Summit is she has failed to win the big prize in several tries, except one time when it got handed to her on a silver platter. Otherwise, she has consistently underachieved when it counts the most. She had Diggins for her entire career with zero national titles to show for it. She even had UConn's number for a couple of seasons and couldn't win it all. With all the talent and unlimited resources she's had throughout her career, I'd say she's underachieved. She'll get you to plenty of Final Fours, but you're not going to win.

Totally agree, I could not have said it better!

 

[mhshuskies]

She led her team to remarkable success against UConn but still finished with a losing record against us.

and couldn't win the biggest prize

 

[mhshuskies]

She led her team to remarkable success against UConn but still finished with a losing record against us.

Best nd player? maybe, but she wouldn't be in the UCONN top ten.

 

[bballnut90]

You're intent on basing everything on FF appearances, not wins. McGraw's last win was in 2001, 16 years ago. VanDerveer's was in 1992, 25 years ago. That's ancient history. Coming in second, third or fourth means you finished the same as 349 other teams in NCAA DI, without the championship trophy. Do that enough and folks begin wondering why you can't get over the hump. Winning the trophy is what counts.

If championship wins are the only measure of a great coach, everyone besides Geno and Pat are mediocre. And for pretty much every program besides Connecticut, making the Final Four is a massive accomplishment worth stacking on your resume.

 

[CONNMAN98]

2017-preseason number 1, will likely be the #2 or #3 overall seed entering the tournament. 3 top 10 kids. For comparison sake, Connecticut has 3, Baylor has 4, Tennessee has 3, Duke has 5, and Texas has 4.


Tennessee and Connecticut both consistently had lineups loaded with top 10 kids on their rosters that won titles in the 90s and 00s. Since 1992, Geno has not had 1 roster without a #1 recruit or former HS POY on it. 25 straight years with a top kid in their class on his roster. Muffett has had one #1 recruit: Michelle Marciniak in 1991 and she transferred after a year. So to say she's had, "all the talent and unlimited resources" is flat out wrong. Any WBB fan who has followed the program the last 10 years will tell you she's been hands down the 2nd best coach in the country and that her teams by and large surpass their expectations.[/QUOTE]
I'm curious what source you're using for these "top 10 kids"? Using different ranking services the current ND team has up to 5 top 10 kids, 8 McDonald's AA's and 4 National P-O-Y's! Brianna Turner and Erin Boley were both #1 recruits on some ranking services.

 

[Orangutan]

I'm curious what source you're using for these "top 10 kids"? Using different ranking services the current ND team has up to 5 top 10 kids, 8 McDonald's AA's and 4 National P-O-Y's! Brianna Turner and Erin Boley were both #1 recruits on some ranking services.

3 "top 10 kids" for ND is accurate if using ESPN Hoopgurlz. Turner (#2, 2014), Ogunbowale (#10, 2015), and Boley (#5, 2016).

Young was the Naismith HS POY but #11 in ESPN's rankings. Similarly, Marina Mabrey was much more highly ranked by the other services and would be "top 1o" if looking a composite of the rankings.

 

[CONNMAN98]

3 "top 10 kids" for ND is accurate if using ESPN Hoopgurlz. Turner (#2, 2014), Ogunbowale (#10, 2015), and Boley (#5, 2016).

Young was the Naismith HS POY but #11 in ESPN's rankings. Similarly, Marina Mabrey was much more highly ranked by the other services and would be "top 1o" if looking a composite of the rankings.

I was just trying to show that there are different ways to present rankings. If you want to go with Hoopgurlz you can also say they have 5 that were top 13! Not much different! Also not mentioning 8 McDonald's AA's because that wouldn't fit the way the stats are framed!

 

[UConnNick]

If championship wins are the only measure of a great coach, everyone besides Geno and Pat are mediocre. And for pretty much every program besides Connecticut, making the Final Four is a massive accomplishment worth stacking on your resume.

You're engaged in a classic strawman argument with yourself. I never indicated the coaches you mention were "mediocre". That's your word. I acknowledged there are other great coaches. I take issue with calling anyone other than Auriemma or Summit "elite" just because they won a couple of championships. When any of them come remotely close to what Geno and Pat have accomplished, then they'll be worthy of mention with them as elite. Until then, it's Geno, Pat and nobody else.

 

[ivrytontusker]

WCBB cannot be compared with the NFL or MCBB because there's an ocean of difference in between due to parity. The NFL and MCBB have it. The women's game doesn't. Just winning regular season games is a struggle in both sports. The women have maybe 5 teams going into each season with some chance to win it all. There are few major upsets at the top of that pyramid, and the top teams only face a handful of games each season with any doubt about who's going to win. There's an appreciable drop off in talent even among the top 6-25 teams vs the top 5. Those teams rarely beat the top 5. As a top 5 team you're going to mow down 3/4 of your schedule, have maybe a handful of wins in the 10-15 point range, and maybe struggle in a few close games against the top 5. That's guaranteed each and every season. That is not remotely close to the reality faced by coaches in college sports where Nos. 10-100 or lower can beat you if you're not on top of your game.

That's why the NFL and MCBB coaches you mention cannot be judged by the same standards as WCBB coaches.

We're talking about a coach's success level in the finals -when they are playing other top teams- rather than a coach's overall winning %. So I'm not sure what the relevance of 'parity' is here.

Also, even if parity is relevant, it is not clear that there was parity in the men's game when, say, Dean Smith was coaching against (and losing to) UCLA in the 60s and 70s.

Anyway, it sounds like there isn't much of a fundamental disagreement here. Nobody is going to challenge Geno and Pat's position vis-a-vis the other coaches; I think the main disagreement is about whether championships alone are the criteria we should look at when comparing Mulkey and McGraw.

And for pretty much every program besides Connecticut, making the Final Four is a massive accomplishment worth stacking on your resume.

Once Geno retires and we enter a period that is likely (although not certain) to be similar to UCLA post-Wooden (winning 1 title from 1976-present after winning 10 titles from 1964-75) maybe people in CT will start thinking of Final Four appearances as significant again.

 

[bballnut90]

You're engaged in a classic strawman argument with yourself. I never indicated the coaches you mention were "mediocre". That's your word. I acknowledged there are other great coaches. I take issue with calling anyone other than Auriemma or Summit "elite" just because they won a couple of championships. When any of them come remotely close to what Geno and Pat have accomplished, then they'll be worthy of mention with them as elite. Until then, it's Geno, Pat and nobody else.

I've never said she was the best ever or on par with Pat or Geno. Those are the best ever. More than 2 can be categorized as elite in my book. But aside from winning one more championship, I'm still unsure how you can conclude that Mulkey is a superior coach to McGraw. Based on your tone about McGraw and how you're only highlighting her losses in championship games, it seems you have some sort of agenda against her or her program.

 

[UConnNick]

I've never said she was the best ever or on par with Pat or Geno. Those are the best ever. More than 2 can be categorized as elite in my book. But aside from winning one more championship, I'm still unsure how you can conclude that Mulkey is a superior coach to McGraw. Based on your tone about McGraw and how you're only highlighting her losses in championship games, it seems you have some sort of agenda against her or her program.

As for having an agenda against anybody, I'm no fan of ND, but I'm also not a Tenn. or Baylor supporter either, so I'm pretty neutral regarding these three schools and their coaches.

ND makes more athletic dept. revenue than any school in the country other than Texas. Another poster laid out quite an argument for McGraw doing a lot more than other coaches with lesser talent. If true, then she's not much of a recruiter considering she works with virtually unlimited resources. She won a single title when she beat a much depleted UConn team missing it's two best senior leaders. Not her fault, but it is what it is. That game probably ends up differently. Maybe ND wins it anyway, but maybe they don't.

Mulkey has one more title than McGraw, and I believe she's coached for fewer seasons. She deserves to get the edge between the two of them.