Muffet McGraw wins

[Oldbones]

Congrats to Muffet, who UConn supporters graciously acknowledge is the 2nd best active coach in WCBB.

Naturally, I don't want to mess with mojo or give them bulletin board material (because we know that Muffet reads the BY). I do think they've improved (as has UConn), and, sure, they could beat UConn. You'd want there to be teams that could beat UConn (well, some boosters might feel otherwise). But I just don't think they're as good. Maybe they'd win 1 out of 5 against UConn, depending on shooting nights and ref calls. I think they're a tad bit slow, plodding and predictable. An excellent team, certainly, but we're talking about which is the very best team in the country.

Put me down in the feel otherwise category. I like to see the starters on the bench in the fourth quarter, relaxing along with me.

 

[bags27]

Thanks to Bags for his congratulations (I think). Would like to address points that you and Carnac have made.

"I think they're a tad bit slow, plodding and predictable." Do you still have the VCR tape from the UConn-ND game in December? The one where Irish guards were trying to force everything down to Turner at the expense of the Princeton offense? Or Arike Ogunbowale was a bit hesitant to whip the ball around the perimeter? And Jackie Young and Erin Boley were not quite sure where their vast individual talents fit into the whole? If so and leading up to Tennessee, I could see that point. But that's not the team playing now. Ogunbowale and Mabrey have learned how to fit/utilize/sublimate their considerable skills into the sum of the parts and made, by doing so, both their games and the overall team's better. And Young (against Louisville) and Boley (against Duke) had their best games period. The Princeton offense is not predictable when it works well and we're back to that.

And that's not really the strength of this team. Running on the break is. That allows ND to space themselves in the lane and drive or dish. Andy Landers said that when ND's in that mode, they can play with anyone.

Carnac....Duke was, for sure, was tired (as were the Irish) from three games in three days. However, one reason Duke was terrible on offense was ND's defense, which Andy Landers commented on. The combination of zones, match-up zones and man helped a lot to contribute to Duke being out of sync. As Deb Antonelli noted, Mabrey went from offensive star on Saturday against Louisville to defensive stopper against Rebecca Greenwell. Taking away Duke's 2nd option was critical. It made Lexie Brown work hard, harder, hardest and she had nothing left after the initial 2nd half-run. Duke's two options (Brown and Greenwell) are very good, but will only go so far against better teams and they ran into one of them today.

So, I'm well aware that you're taking this from how do all teams match up against the Huskies, but this Irish team is in a different mode now. Actually has been for most of the ACC schedule. I wish Kat Westbeld's ankle was completely healed because she's our calming salve to virtually everything. With her, let's go into the tourney and see what happens....

Well, I've certainly had difficulties with Muffet's (what I call her) passive-aggressiveness. But anyone coaching a highly successful team has to be a little hinky. And, contrary to what a number of UConners above have said, I do very much admire her skills and the program she built. In sports, you are defined by those whom you beat (and beaten by), and Muffet and ND have been a very, very worthy opponent.

BTW, I don't need the VCR tape, and neither do you.
2016-2017 Women’s Basketball Game Replays

But yes, I've seen ND several times since: they have definitely improved a lot; so has UConn. Sure they now play the Princeton more effectively, but I still don't see it as effective or dynamic as UConn's pure Motion. Doesn't mean they can't or won't beat UConn. Just that UConn is significantly more dynamic and quicker, and, all things being equal (which illness, injuries, referees, and poor shooting make sure they rarely are) UConn wins most of the time.

 

[thatguyed]

I watched that game. Duke played horrible. Too many un-forced turnovers, and bad shot selection. Nobody was boxing out for Duke, which resulted in lots of ND offensive rebounds, and put-backs. JPC should be embarrassed. ND had two second half runs of 10 & 16 points. ND was getting whatever they wanted on offense. Turner was having a field day in the paint. Duke won't make it beyond the second weekend in the tournament. There is absolutely no way they make it to Dallas. I'd bet the farm on that!!

I was there and Duke was really bad. Compared to just about any UCONN game, it was slow for both teams outside of ND's run. Nothing elegant. Very little crisp passing. If Duke had a clue on defending the 3, it might've been a game. Without the 3, which we know UCONN will defend very well, ND didn't really impress me.

And to address another comment, the dress was awful. Muffett in her animal print skirt was more appropriate.

 

[Husky pride]

The numbers favor Mulkey over McGraw. She's got two NCs to McGraw's one. Miss Muffet got lucky facing a UConn team in the semis that was missing Abrosimova and Ralph when she won it in 2001.

And a stone cold freshman named, Diana who cried over her performance and the way the team fell apart in the second half! The most heartbreaking UConn Women's game that I ever witnessed!

 

[AdamOwe]

What did you think of the dress?

It was groovy, man.

 

[Rixxx]

For the record, UConn is 35-11 vs ND, all time.

 

[Oldbones]

OK, let me give it up for Duke & JPM.. At the beginning of the season I said in an exchange with @CamrnCrz1974 that Coach JPM should be fired for " incompetence" & I was wrong.
I have watched her interactions with the players very closely and clearly the interactions this year are more positive and seemingly yielding better results. Duke is clearly playing better basketball than last year but still maddeningly sporadic. That makes it very hard to predict what Duke will do in this tournament. Against the right team (Drake??) Duke could bow out in the second round at home as it did a few years ago to DePaul or Duke could make it all the way to a regional final or even FF in Dallas.

Dukes and Drakes. Don't throw your money away on that one..................

 

[ivrytontusker]

Creme's Bracketology page has a note at the top that states that "regions are not reflective of final four pairings". So the graphic layout of his brackets is arbitrary.

Ooops! I didn't see that.

 

[ivrytontusker]

The numbers favor Mulkey over McGraw. She's got two NCs to McGraw's one. Miss Muffet got lucky facing a UConn team in the semis that was missing Abrosimova and Ralph when she won it in 2001.

I think there is a legitimate question about Muffet's ability to get the players ready for a big game. The team came out shockingly flat in the 2011 title game, which they should have won. However, they lost to better teams in 2012 (Baylor with Griner) and 2014 and 2015 (us).

She also would likely have 4-5 titles of her own if there was no UCONN, where Kim still has just the two titles if there was no UCONN.

That's an interesting point. Nobody really knows. Again, though, the 2011 title game performance raises major questions about Muffet. But I think Muffet will probably coach longer than Geno, which could reveal some things. If she can win more titles in a Geno-less college basketball landscape everything might look different.

I would never glorify Mcgraw. She's a back stabber and an opportunist.

What are you talking about? Her shot at Geno? I think many ND types resent Geno, not only because he usually beats ND but because a couple years ago he blamed ND for the Big East falling apart. I agree Muffet's comments in 2014 were absurd, but that hardly makes her a "back-stabber" or "opportunist." I've heard that she and Geno are on better terms now. It's one thing to compare coaches but I don't know why UConn fans want to dump on 'rival' coaches without evidence. She's not the only other coach to resent UConn and Geno's success.

On the other hand, she and Geno used to hang out on the Jawsey Shore:

For the record, UConn is 35-11 vs ND, all time.

I wonder how many coaches have a better win% vs. Geno, though (given a certainly number of games played)? Probably not too many.

 

[Gus Mahler]

I did notice immediately and after my own double take of a blue print, I froze the screen and actually thought she looked pretty good in it vs. her standard black with black jacket or sweater. Though based on how they ended the game, I doubt we'll see one again.

I found it interesting because I have a tie just like it.

 

[UConnNick]

She seems to get the most out of her players over their four years. Kim does a good job developing talent as well but I think Muffet's a stronger coach in most areas. She seems to do more with less than maybe any other coach and consistently has one of the best offensive teams in the country. She also would likely have 4-5 titles of her own if there was no UCONN, where Kim still has just the two titles if there was no UCONN.

Notre Dame has looked fantastic as of late. Much improved from the first meeting with Connecticut. Turner looks much smoother and more aggressive, Mabrey is playing well and Allen looks magnificent running the show. Even role players like Boley, Young and Westbeld look much improved and are capable scorers. I think they'll be the toughest test for Connecticut if they meet in the Final Four or title game.

That's crazy logic. Trying to predict how many titles other coaches would have won if UConn didn't exist?

The reason I don't consider McGraw to be anywhere remotely in the same stratosphere with Auriemma and Summit is she has failed to win the big prize in several tries, except one time when it got handed to her on a silver platter. Otherwise, she has consistently underachieved when it counts the most. She had Diggins for her entire career with zero national titles to show for it. She even had UConn's number for a couple of seasons and couldn't win it all. With all the talent and unlimited resources she's had throughout her career, I'd say she's underachieved. She'll get you to plenty of Final Fours, but you're not going to win.

 

[Orangutan]

I was there and Duke was really bad. Compared to just about any UCONN game, it was slow for both teams outside of ND's run. Nothing elegant. Very little crisp passing. If Duke had a clue on defending the 3, it might've been a game. Without the 3, which we know UCONN will defend very well, ND didn't really impress me.

And to address another comment, the dress was awful. Muffett in her animal print skirt was more appropriate.

Among power-5 teams, Duke is 2nd in defensive points per possession (.77), 2nd in FG% defense (33.9%), and 3rd in 3FG% defense (26.4%)

Yesterday, ND scored 1.24 points per possession, shot 51.7% overall, and 50.0% 3FG and you're not impressed...

Maybe next game ND will make some crisp passes and manage more than a measly 24 assists on 31 baskets.

 

[ivrytontusker]

That's crazy logic. Trying to predict how many titles other coaches would have won if UConn didn't exist?

The reason I don't consider McGraw to be anywhere remotely in the same stratosphere with Auriemma and Summit is she has failed to win the big prize in several tries, except one time when it got handed to her on a silver platter. Otherwise, she has consistently underachieved when it counts the most. She had Diggins for her entire career with zero national titles to show for it. She even had UConn's number for a couple of seasons and couldn't win it all. With all the talent and unlimited resources she's had throughout her career, I'd say she's underachieved. She'll get you to plenty of Final Fours, but you're not going to win.

The claim about being in the same "stratosphere" as Geno is a straw man argument. If everybody is measured against Geno, I guess there are no other good coaches? Presumably you aren't saying that Mulkey is in the same stratosphere as Auriemma and Summit, just because she has won 1 more title than McGraw?

The argument about title game records leads to some absurd conclusions. What it suggests is that if Baylor had made the title game in 2014 and 2015, instead of ND, and then lost to UConn, this would change your assessment of the two coaches. You're effectively criticizing McGraw for getting to too many Final Fours when ND was not the best team, and then losing to a better team (which was true every year save 2011). The general implication is that it would be better to not advance as far in the tournament, which doesn't seem to make much sense.

It also leads to the conclusion that coaches such as Tom Landry, Don Shula, and Dean Smith, who also had losing records in title games, are not 'elite.'

 

[bballnut90]

That's crazy logic. Trying to predict how many titles other coaches would have won if UConn didn't exist?

The reason I don't consider McGraw to be anywhere remotely in the same stratosphere with Auriemma and Summit is she has failed to win the big prize in several tries, except one time when it got handed to her on a silver platter. Otherwise, she has consistently underachieved when it counts the most. She had Diggins for her entire career with zero national titles to show for it. She even had UConn's number for a couple of seasons and couldn't win it all. With all the talent and unlimited resources she's had throughout her career, I'd say she's underachieved. She'll get you to plenty of Final Fours, but you're not going to win.

How is it crazy? Muffet's best streak as a coach has unfortunately come during a time when the Huskies have won 100+ straight games, another undefeated to show (2014) and when Baylor had their undefeated run with Griner. Very very likely her teams win multiple titles if there wasn't a Connecticut. Her losing in 4 title games is much more a product of who they lost to rather than shortcomings that she's had. The only one that strays from this is arguably 2011 when they had a winnable game against A&M. That said, Notre Dame was not an amazing team that year, they had 8 losses and were a 2 seed entering the tournament. They pulled off big upsets in the regionals and Final Four but couldn't work the same magic in the title game.

I'm not saying she's in the same field as Geno and Pat, I'm just saying I think she's a better coach than Mulkey.

She also didn't have it served to her on a silver platter in 2001. Yes, Connecticut had injuries, but Notre Dame handily beat Connecticut earlier in the year when they were at full strength. It'd be a different argument if Connecticut was clearly the better team when healthy and then lost due to injuries in a rematch, but Notre Dame had proven they were superior or at the very least, equal to Connecticut that season.

She has not underachieved at all. Until recently, her teams rarely had top 10 kids on them. She's also never landed a #1 overall recruit. Diggins is not the same caliber player as Maya Moore, Griner or Stewart who are 3 of the very best players ever. All four years she had 1-2 of those players in her way to cross paths with.

The only top 10 recruit on the roster in 2011 and 2012 was Diggins. They made 2 title game appearances and far surpassed any preseason expectations.

In 2013 they went an outstanding 35-2, best a far more talented Connecticut team 3 times and were consistently a top 3 team all season despite having a preseason ranking of 8. Two top 10 players on the roster (Diggins and Loyd). Connecticut who they lost to, had 6 former top 10 recruits including two #1 overall players.

2014--preseason 6, went undefeated until the title game. 2 top ten kids (Loyd and Reimer). Connecticut had 4 former top 10 kids including 2 #1 overall players.

2015-preseason 3, finished as runner up to the Huskies in a competitive title game. Three top 10 kids. UCONN who they lost to had 4 top ten kids, two #1 overall recruits.

2016-preseason number 4, was a top 3 team all year before a massive upset by Stanford. Finished 33-2. Two top 10 players. Connecticut who won it all had 5, including two number one overall.

2017-preseason number 1, will likely be the #2 or #3 overall seed entering the tournament. 3 top 10 kids. For comparison sake, Connecticut has 3, Baylor has 4, Tennessee has 3, Duke has 5, and Texas has 4.


Tennessee and Connecticut both consistently had lineups loaded with top 10 kids on their rosters that won titles in the 90s and 00s. Since 1992, Geno has not had 1 roster without a #1 recruit or former HS POY on it. 25 straight years with a top kid in their class on his roster. Muffett has had one #1 recruit: Michelle Marciniak in 1991 and she transferred after a year. So to say she's had, "all the talent and unlimited resources" is flat out wrong. Any WBB fan who has followed the program the last 10 years will tell you she's been hands down the 2nd best coach in the country and that her teams by and large surpass their expectations.

 

[j66kicker]

And to address another comment, the dress was awful. Muffett in her animal print skirt was more appropriate.

 

[bags27]

Worse than Geno's scruffy, belly-over-the-belt look at times?

Gotta believe that discussing the way coaches dress is sort of uncool (as opposed to what clothes they happen to throw, which is entirely cool )

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

OK, let me give it up for Duke & JPM.. At the beginning of the season I said in an exchange with @CamrnCrz1974 that Coach JPM should be fired for " incompetence" & I was wrong.
I have watched her interactions with the players very closely and clearly the interactions this year are more positive and seemingly yielding better results. Duke is clearly playing better basketball than last year but still maddeningly sporadic. That makes it very hard to predict what Duke will do in this tournament. Against the right team (Drake??) Duke could bow out in the second round at home as it did a few years ago to DePaul or Duke could make it all the way to a regional final or even FF in Dallas.

@CocoHusky:
I was high on this team's potential, mainly because of the presence of Lexie Brown. Having a guard who can create her own shot and facilitate has been crucial. This freed up Greenwell to be more of a scorer and rebounder while giving Kyra Lambert a secondary ballhandler to take pressure off of her.

My issue/concern with Duke is that so many of the high quality wins came at home - South Carolina, Kentucky, Miami, Syracuse, Louisville (though the team did not knock off Miami and Syracuse a second time each on a neutral court). While Duke played ND very tough at home (62-58), on a neutral court, the results are quite different. @CocoHusky, I think is what you might mean by being maddeningly sporadic, as this team was blown out by FSU on the road and lost to Vanderbilt on the road as well.

As you noted, the interactions are definitely better. First, you have the addition of a full-time strength and fitness trainer (full-time, in that she only works with DWB) in Ashleigh Beaver, who has clearly increased the fitness level...which may have reduced the numerous injuries that have plagued Duke in recent years. Second, Al Brown is back, after, as what Rob Clough notes, battling illness and a shaky status within the program. Brown's voice in Xs and Os is critical. And while the matchup zone still gives up open shots, the shooters are getting a little less time to get the ball away, thanks to the "help and recover." Elite teams have the ability to beat the zone at times due to great shooters (e.g., Notre Dame), but Duke has done a much better job this year on defending the hot shooters and forcing other players to try and hit shots. This has led to an increase in winning, which, frankly, certainly helps the mood of the program.

But the key to all of this has been Lexie Brown.

 

[triaddukefan]

@CocoHusky:
I was high on this team's potential, mainly because of the presence of Lexie Brown. Having a guard who can create her own shot and facilitate has been crucial. This freed up Greenwell to be more of a scorer and rebounder while giving Kyra Lambert a secondary ballhandler to take pressure off of her.

My issue/concern with Duke is that so many of the high quality wins came at home - South Carolina, Kentucky, Miami, Syracuse, Louisville (though the team did not knock off Miami and Syracuse a second time each on a neutral court). While Duke played ND very tough at home (62-58), on a neutral court, the results are quite different. @CocoHusky, I think is what you might mean by being maddeningly sporadic, as this team was blown out by FSU on the road and lost to Vanderbilt on the road as well.

As you noted, the interactions are definitely better. First, you have the addition of a full-time strength and fitness trainer (full-time, in that she only works with DWB) in Ashleigh Beaver, who has clearly increased the fitness level...which may have reduced the numerous injuries that have plagued Duke in recent years. Second, Al Brown is back, after, as what Rob Clough notes, battling illness and a shaky status within the program. Brown's voice in Xs and Os is critical. And while the matchup zone still gives up open shots, the shooters are getting a little less time to get the ball away, thanks to the "help and recover." Elite teams have the ability to beat the zone at times due to great shooters (e.g., Notre Dame), but Duke has done a much better job this year on defending the hot shooters and forcing other players to try and hit shots. This has led to an increase in winning, which, frankly, certainly helps the mood of the program.

But the key to all of this has been Lexie Brown.

Which makes it even more of a joke that Brown doesn't make the list of finalists of these national awards.

 

[cabbie191]

OK, let me give it up for Duke & JPM.. At the beginning of the season I said in an exchange with @CamrnCrz1974 that Coach JPM should be fired for " incompetence" & I was wrong.
I have watched her interactions with the players very closely and clearly the interactions this year are more positive and seemingly yielding better results. Duke is clearly playing better basketball than last year but still maddeningly sporadic. That makes it very hard to predict what Duke will do in this tournament. Against the right team (Drake??) Duke could bow out in the second round at home as it did a few years ago to DePaul or Duke could make it all the way to a regional final or even FF in Dallas.

I've also been surprised at the positive results this year. If I were a betting man, I'd wager that the internal investigation the school conducted resulted in her being reflective of how she was going about her business, and to her credit, she made real improvements.

Triad, Cameron - what do you think?

 

[UConnNick]

How is it crazy? Muffet's best streak as a coach has unfortunately come during a time when the Huskies have won 100+ straight games, another undefeated to show (2014) and when Baylor had their undefeated run with Griner. Very very likely her teams win multiple titles if there wasn't a Connecticut. Her losing in 4 title games is much more a product of who they lost to rather than shortcomings that she's had. The only one that strays from this is arguably 2011 when they had a winnable game against A&M. That said, Notre Dame was not an amazing team that year, they had 8 losses and were a 2 seed entering the tournament. They pulled off big upsets in the regionals and Final Four but couldn't work the same magic in the title game.

I'm not saying she's in the same field as Geno and Pat, I'm just saying I think she's a better coach than Mulkey.

She also didn't have it served to her on a silver platter in 2001. Yes, Connecticut had injuries, but Notre Dame handily beat Connecticut earlier in the year when they were at full strength. It'd be a different argument if Connecticut was clearly the better team when healthy and then lost due to injuries in a rematch, but Notre Dame had proven they were superior or at the very least, equal to Connecticut that season.

She has not underachieved at all. Until recently, her teams rarely had top 10 kids on them. She's also never landed a #1 overall recruit. Diggins is not the same caliber player as Maya Moore, Griner or Stewart who are 3 of the very best players ever. All four years she had 1-2 of those players in her way to cross paths with.

The only top 10 recruit on the roster in 2011 and 2012 was Diggins. They made 2 title game appearances and far surpassed any preseason expectations.

In 2013 they went an outstanding 35-2, best a far more talented Connecticut team 3 times and were consistently a top 3 team all season despite having a preseason ranking of 8. Two top 10 players on the roster (Diggins and Loyd). Connecticut who they lost to, had 6 former top 10 recruits including two #1 overall players.

2014--preseason 6, went undefeated until the title game. 2 top ten kids (Loyd and Reimer). Connecticut had 4 former top 10 kids including 2 #1 overall players.

2015-preseason 3, finished as runner up to the Huskies in a competitive title game. Three top 10 kids. UCONN who they lost to had 4 top ten kids, two #1 overall recruits.

2016-preseason number 4, was a top 3 team all year before a massive upset by Stanford. Finished 33-2. Two top 10 players. Connecticut who won it all had 5, including two number one overall.

2017-preseason number 1, will likely be the #2 or #3 overall seed entering the tournament. 3 top 10 kids. For comparison sake, Connecticut has 3, Baylor has 4, Tennessee has 3, Duke has 5, and Texas has 4.


Tennessee and Connecticut both consistently had lineups loaded with top 10 kids on their rosters that won titles in the 90s and 00s. Since 1992, Geno has not had 1 roster without a #1 recruit or former HS POY on it. 25 straight years with a top kid in their class on his roster. Muffett has had one #1 recruit: Michelle Marciniak in 1991 and she transferred after a year. So to say she's had, "all the talent and unlimited resources" is flat out wrong. Any WBB fan who has followed the program the last 10 years will tell you she's been hands down the 2nd best coach in the country and that her teams by and large surpass their expectations.

So you're saying she was the second best coach in the country even during that portion of the last ten seasons when Summit was still coaching? That's even crazier than speculating about how many times she wins a NC if UConn didn't exist.

She didn't get the job done when it counted the most in the Final Four, and she lost in the championship game even when UConn was already out of her way. The rest of your analysis would lead to the conclusion that despite having unlimited resources, she's not a particularly great recruiter, which is perhaps the most important part of a coach's job.

 

[UConnNick]

WCBB cannot be compared with the NFL or MCBB because there's an ocean of difference in between due to parity. The NFL and MCBB have it. The women's game doesn't. Just winning regular season games is a struggle in both sports. The women have maybe 5 teams going into each season with some chance to win it all. There are few major upsets at the top of that pyramid, and the top teams only face a handful of games each season with any doubt about who's going to win. There's an appreciable drop off in talent even among the top 6-25 teams vs the top 5. Those teams rarely beat the top 5. As a top 5 team you're going to mow down 3/4 of your schedule, have maybe a handful of wins in the 10-15 point range, and maybe struggle in a few close games against the top 5. That's guaranteed each and every season. That is not remotely close to the reality faced by coaches in college sports where Nos. 10-100 or lower can beat you if you're not on top of your game.

That's why the NFL and MCBB coaches you mention cannot be judged by the same standards as WCBB coaches.

Auriemma and Summit are at the top of that pyramid, and anybody else is a distant third and so on. I'm not saying Barmore, Mulkey, Hatchell, Frese and McGraw aren't great coaches, but they're all far from the elite status of Auriemma and Summit.

QUOTE="ivrytontusker, post: 2079770, member: 6648"]The claim about being in the same "stratosphere" as Geno is a straw man argument. If everybody is measured against Geno, I guess there are no other good coaches? Presumably you aren't saying that Mulkey is in the same stratosphere as Auriemma and Summit, just because she has won 1 more title than McGraw?

The argument about title game records leads to some absurd conclusions. What it suggests is that if Baylor had made the title game in 2014 and 2015, instead of ND, and then lost to UConn, this would change your assessment of the two coaches. You're effectively criticizing McGraw for getting to too many Final Fours when ND was not the best team, and then losing to a better team (which was true every year save 2011). The general implication is that it would be better to not advance as far in the tournament, which doesn't seem to make much sense.

It also leads to the conclusion that coaches such as Tom Landry, Don Shula, and Dean Smith, who also had losing records in title games, are not 'elite.'[/QUOTE]

 

[oldude]

For the record, UConn is 35-11 vs ND, all time.

ND won 11 games?

 

[HoopsFan21]

ND won 11 games?

7 of them came in the Diggins era. For a rivalry, it is pretty one-sided.

 

[UConnNick]

7 of them came in the Diggins era. For a rivalry, it is pretty one-sided.

Diggins, the greatest player in ND history, and a UConn killer. The problem is she couldn't kill anybody else when it counted the most.

 

[Plebe]

Diggins, the greatest player in ND history, and a UConn killer. The problem is she couldn't kill anybody else when it counted the most.

She led her team to remarkable success against UConn but still finished with a losing record against us.