More Caitlin Clark drama

[CL82]

Taurasi is the career leader in quite a few official categories, I'd guess she's probably also the all time leader in push offs. Never seemed to be an issue with her. Why is it such an issue for Clark?

Because Diana didn't whine about the contact, she got in return? If you push off two or three times in a row and then flop when you get contact back, it's pretty likely to be noticed and called out.

(Also, Diana is more charismatic.)

 

[cancontent]

You may be right. But I wasn’t trying to change any opinions. I just find this simple fact really interesting, that Paige does not appear to be changing her style of play to conform to the preexisting norms of the league. I wonder if she’ll end up changing the league by her example.

Caitlin is a transcendent talent and has raised the visibility of the league. She deserves a ton of credit for this. She did something similar for the college game, which is not surprising since she was clearly the second best player in D1 across her entire college career. Paige didn’t have a similar impact on the college game. We’ll see if she does something comparable in the W not by raising its visibility but by reforming the culture of the game.

I know, I’m a fool and a dreamer— Paige is more likely to be chewed up and spat out by a cruel, indifferent league long before she leaves any notable mark. And this result won’t be at all surprising if the Wings continue to play her for 35+ minutes per game in her first season immediately after she’s completed a grueling NC run. I for one hope she doesn’t play in Unrivaled this year or in any other league, but instead rests up in preparation for her second pro season.

While this is a thread swerve, your comments about Paige's impact on the league caught my attention. Similar comments come up on the UConn board sometimes.

Here's my question? Why does it matter so much? The reason why I ask is that to me, a player's impact will happen organically. It always has. Only fate will determine the impact that Paige will have.

At the same time, in my opinion, Paige has already made an impact on the sport of basketball in so many ways and she'll continue to do so. Is it the way you're envisioning? I'm not sure but I think it's been significant.

How many times in history have we've seen people make these huge efforts to be remembered, only for it to blow up in their faces? Where with others, they just do their thing and end up leaving a bigger impact than expected without even trying. If it's meant for Paige, it will happen. Personally, I think it will but only time will tell.

 

[Bone Dog]

While this is a thread swerve,

Absolutely. But the poke or no poke debate had essentially run its course. It was time to turn to other implications of that game.

How many times in history have we've seen people make these huge efforts to be remembered, only for it to blow up in their faces? Where with others, they just do their thing and end up leaving a bigger impact than expected without even trying. If it's meant for Paige, it will happen. Personally, I think it will but only time will tell.

This is my view as well. Paige isn’t making a special effort. She’s just playing her game in the way that makes sense to her. But like a tiny bit of leaven, she may eventually change the entire dough. And I’d say the same thing about Caitlin. She also simply played her game the best way she knows how. Everything else just followed naturally.

 

[diggerfoot]

Over the course of her first year in the WNBA, my impression of Clark grew more favorably. Initially, I thought she was more suited to be an off guard, now I think she can be an excellent point guard … if she cuts down on turnovers. The obstacle to this lies not so much with her as with her fans. If Pinicheiro, Vandersloot or Bird had the current expanded season at the peak of their careers, Clark would not yet have the season record for assists, yet she would still have the season record for turnovers. No one in the history of the WNBA has been turning the ball over at Clark’s rate. This is due in part to the fast pace in high possession offense she drives, but if you defend her on that, you fairly should consider that in her assist totals. Her fans that consider Clark the GOAT already do not and that contributes to the tail wagging the dog in terms of coaching her to be the best point guard she can be.

I also now believe that Clark could be a better defensive player than I previously gave her credit. But why should she? Once again, her fans defend her as GOAT material in the absence of being a two way player. The NBA players in GOAT discussion are all two way players. Only Taurasi in the WNBA might not be considered a two way player, though even she was better than credited, having enjoyed a brief stint in the top ten of career blocks. Moore, Wilson, Catchings, all two way players, but Clark need not be because of the tail wagging the dog. Maybe she could be, but she need not be in the eyes of her fans.

I also became increasingly impressed with Clark’s character off the court. It’s not easy for humans to handle being worshipped, a sense of entitlement ever grows. Clark has been worshipped like no other player before her. I think she has handled it well off the court, but on court we see more evidence of the tail wagging the dog, and I will just leave it at that.

This begs the question of why she should be worshipped so by her fans (and the predictable counter reaction of being vilified in some quarters). Yes, she is a great passer, but Vandersloot, et al sees the court and passes just as well … without the turnovers. More importantly, she is a spectacular shooter, which is why I originally thought she would be more suited as an off guard. She makes shots from a distance that others would seldom take, most never. Yet she only shoots around 35% from three, respectable but not elite. I suspect if she took 3s from a normal distance her percentages may be elite, but why should she do that when the spectacular is what her fans want? It looks like no coach is going to change that as the tail continues to wag the dog.

Meanwhile, her teammates as an upperclassmen to the present on have always had the highest percentages. I arrogantly predicted midseason last year that the Fever’s ceiling for shooting percentage would be 45%, never surpassing the Aces or Liberty. I was wrong. The Fever surpassed 45% and ended at the top. They are even higher if you subtract Clark’s own shooting numbers from the total. In retrospect, why shouldn’t Clark’s teammates have a high shooting percentage when you consider Mitchell’s and Boston’s superstardom in college? Also consider how being teamed up with elite shooters improves Clark’s assist numbers.

I had hopes for White resisting the fan tail wagging the dog and simplifying what Clark’s role should be, restricting her in ways that would lead her to be the best superstar she could be, whether at point guard or off guard. Even if she remains a combo guard she could be given more coaching guidance and restriction. Yet in addition to the spectacular the new fandom that Clark has brought to the league seems to thrive on conflict on and off the court. This is not Clark’s fault, it is the tail wagging the dog. Despite the increase in support of the WNBA, I am not sure that is entirely a good thing.

 

[Bone Dog]

Over the course of her first year in the WNBA, my impression of Clark grew more favorably. Initially, I thought she was more suited to be an off guard, now I think she can be an excellent point guard … if she cuts down on turnovers. The obstacle to this lies not so much with her as with her fans. If Pinicheiro, Vandersloot or Bird had the current expanded season at the peak of their careers, Clark would not yet have the season record for assists, yet she would still have the season record for turnovers. No one in the history of the WNBA has been turning the ball over at Clark’s rate. This is due in part to the fast pace in high possession offense she drives, but if you defend her on that, you fairly should consider that in her assist totals. Her fans that consider Clark the GOAT already do not and that contributes to the tail wagging the dog in terms of coaching her to be the best point guard she can be.

I also now believe that Clark could be a better defensive player than I previously gave her credit. But why should she? Once again, her fans defend her as GOAT material in the absence of being a two way player. The NBA players in GOAT discussion are all two way players. Only Taurasi in the WNBA might not be considered a two way player, though even she was better than credited, having enjoyed a brief stint in the top ten of career blocks. Moore, Wilson, Catchings, all two way players, but Clark need not be because of the tail wagging the dog. Maybe she could be, but she need not be in the eyes of her fans.

I also became increasingly impressed with Clark’s character off the court. It’s not easy for humans to handle being worshipped, a sense of entitlement ever grows. Clark has been worshipped like no other player before her. I think she has handled it well off the court, but on court we see more evidence of the tail wagging the dog, and I will just leave it at that.

This begs the question of why she should be worshipped so by her fans (and the predictable counter reaction of being vilified in some quarters). Yes, she is a great passer, but Vandersloot, et al sees the court and passes just as well … without the turnovers. More importantly, she is a spectacular shooter, which is why I originally thought she would be more suited as an off guard. She makes shots from a distance that others would seldom take, most never. Yet she only shoots around 35% from three, respectable but not elite. I suspect if she took 3s from a normal distance her percentages may be elite, but why should she do that when the spectacular is what her fans want? It looks like no coach is going to change that as the tail continues to wag the dog.

Meanwhile, her teammates as an upperclassmen to the present on have always had the highest percentages. I arrogantly predicted midseason last year that the Fever’s ceiling for shooting percentage would be 45%, never surpassing the Aces or Liberty. I was wrong. The Fever surpassed 45% and ended at the top. They are even higher if you subtract Clark’s own shooting numbers from the total. In retrospect, why shouldn’t Clark’s teammates have a high shooting percentage when you consider Mitchell’s and Boston’s superstardom in college? Also consider how being teamed up with elite shooters improves Clark’s assist numbers.

I had hopes for White resisting the fan tail wagging the dog and simplifying what Clark’s role should be, restricting her in ways that would lead her to be the best superstar she could be, whether at point guard or off guard. Even if she remains a combo guard she could be given more coaching guidance and restriction. Yet in addition to the spectacular the new fandom that Clark has brought to the league seems to thrive on conflict on and off the court. This is not Clark’s fault, it is the tail wagging the dog. Despite the increase in support of the WNBA, I am not sure that is entirely a good thing.

This is a good take on Caitlin. And I agree that she is underrated as a defender. I remind myself of a fast break when she stole the ball from Christyn and I’ve never seen anyone do that. Maybe she doesn’t focus on defense enough, but that’s a coaching issue and not necessarily a fair critique of her game. I’m also beginning to share your view that she’s more in the mold of a combo guard than a PG, which means the best comparison for her may be Diana, rather than Sue or Sloot. This might also make it easier to make sense of her on court persona, which shares a bit of Diana’s in-your-face flavor.

Your tail-wagging metaphor is probably just about right. And it suggests the difficulty of coaching a team with this sort of player. I feel for Stephanie White. When you have a transcendent star, it can often limit your options whether you like it or not. I suspect Lindsay Gottlieb is stuck in a similar sort of bind with Juju.

 

[Just.A.Fan]

Paige just engineered a win over the Sun, guarded much of the time by Jacy Sheldon and — guess what — no fights break out, no drama, just good basketball. Just sayin’

Unless Sheldon is looking for a reputation of being a cheap shot artist and/or thug (of which there are way too many currently in the WNBA), it is understandable her behavior was more in line against Paige. Especially since the game was played in Connecticut. Just sayin'.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Because Diana didn't whine about the contact, she got in return?

Um...really? D worked the refs as much as anybody.

 

[CL82]

Um...really? D worked the refs as much as anybody.

But I never saw her play the victim, ever.

As I've said many times, Clark is an excellent player who has had a transformational effect on women's basketball, especially, but not exclusively, at the pro level. Still, it's probably a mistake to compare her to Taurasi, but then again pretty much everyone is going to lose in that comparison.

 

[nwhoopfan]

But I never saw her play the victim, ever.

As I've said many times, Clark is an excellent player who has had a transformational effect on women's basketball, especially, but not exclusively, at the pro level. Still, it's probably a mistake to compare her to Taurasi, but then again pretty much everyone is going to lose in that comparison.

Taurasi is the standard. Clark is in her second year. Comparisons are very premature at this point.

 

[Just.A.Fan]

Taurasi is the standard. Clark is in her second year. Comparisons are very premature at this point.

And yet Clark has done more to put the WNBA on the map! I l love Diana, watched her play many times going all the way back to her high school days. But Clark has done more than any women to make women's basketball a talking piece. She has increased the popularity 10 times over, product sales are way up, little girls are demanding to play the game, and for the parents to take hem to see WNBA games, etc., etc. But yes, she can be a pain in the .

 

[baggerbob]

Yup, but this issue is not only something Clark gets away with. A lot of guards do this in WNBA and NCAA.

It reminds me of the NFL and their inconsistency with penalties designed to protect defenders, like low blocks that rarely get called.

To do away with players using their off arms for spacing, instruct the refs to call it early in every game. After a couple of weeks players will cut down drastically on doing it.
It's up to the league to get rid of it, and you have to implement it early in games and players will adjust.

 

[cancontent]

To do away with players using their off arms for spacing, instruct the refs to call it early in every game. After a couple of weeks players will cut down drastically on doing it.
It's up to the league to get rid of it, and you have to implement it early in games and players will adjust.

No argument there, but considering how well they're doing with "freedom of movement", when do we see that actually happening?

 

[baggerbob]

No argument there, but considering how well they're doing with "freedom of movement", when do we see that actually happening?

Probably not until a star or 2 ends up lost for the season, and it probably will end up happening this year.
It seems that since Clark came into the league it has gotten worse. Stewie's first 2 years were bad then she won a championship, and it got better.
This year the referees seem to have lost control of a lot of games.

 

[thekollieman]

That's fair. It is hard to tell, sometimes, what's snark versus actual comments. And there have been many times where people have been really clocked and I have sarcastically said "I didn't see any contact". This time, however, I'm being serious. Which isn't to say that there might have been an egregious foul and I just can't see it from the relatively badvideo I have in front of me. That's why I'm open to looking at a different video of somebody has one.

In the meantime, let's take at this frame by frame. First, here's the moment of supposed "contact":
View attachment 110155
1. Sheldon's hand is in front of Clark's face. Clark's head is in no way displaced.

Next
View attachment 110156
2. Sheldon's hand is now away from Clark's face. Clark's face is still hasn't been "displaced" by the supposed force of the Sheldon blow.

I'll continue this in the next post

The idea that this frame by frame reveals anything at all is hilarious.

 

[CL82]

The idea that this frame by frame reveals anything at all is hilarious.

I know pictures can be very confusing, at least when they don't show what you want.

 

[thekollieman]

I know pictures can be very confusing, at least when they don't show what you want.

I’m just pointing out there is less resolution in those images than a bodega security camera. I have no opinion whatsoever on the play.

 

[CL82]

I’m just pointing out there is less resolution in those images than a bodega security camera. I have no opinion whatsoever on the play.

Having no knowledge of what a bodega security camera footage looks like, I have no opinion on your comment whatsoever.

 

[thekollieman]

Having new knowledge of what a bodega security camera footage looks like, I have no opinion on your comment whatsoever.

Nice

 

[JstVisiting]

While true, Antonelli did point out a couple times where Clark could have been called for the use of her arm in the game. The initial shoving that wasn't dealt with during the first half is an example. The topic of arm control and what should be allowed is worth discussion along with what's considered an appropriate amount of physical contact.

I would rather see a Midwest whistle-fest than the style of play dictated by the WNBA, which makes most games feel like a Bad Boys Pistons revival without the backcourt creativity of IT and Dumars.

Probably not a surprise, but I think SEC college games correctly thread the needle between "Someone sneezed on one of those delicate flowers! To the fainting couch!" and "She's still standing! Hit her again!"

 

[Bjbod]

This is a good take on Caitlin. And I agree that she is underrated as a defender. I remind myself of a fast break when she stole the ball from Christyn and I’ve never seen anyone do that. Maybe she doesn’t focus on defense enough, but that’s a coaching issue and not necessarily a fair critique of her game. I’m also beginning to share your view that she’s more in the mold of a combo guard than a PG, which means the best comparison for her may be Diana, rather than Sue or Sloot. This might also make it easier to make sense of her on court persona, which shares a bit of Diana’s in-your-face flavor.

Your tail-wagging metaphor is probably just about right. And it suggests the difficulty of coaching a team with this sort of player. I feel for Stephanie White. When you have a transcendent star, it can often limit your options whether you like it or not. I suspect Lindsay Gottlieb is stuck in a similar sort of bind with Juju.

I'd really like to see CC play better defense; there's cringe-worthy moments every game. I wonder if she's allowed to slack off some just so she has the energy to stay on the court longer?

 

[cancontent]

I would rather see a Midwest whistle-fest than the style of play dictated by the WNBA, which makes most games feel like a Bad Boys Pistons revival without the backcourt creativity of IT and Dumars.

Probably not a surprise, but I think SEC college games correctly thread the needle between "Someone sneezed on one of those delicate flowers! To the fainting couch!" and "She's still standing! Hit her again!"

What exactly is this? Sorry, but I can't think of a Canadian equivalent to use as a reference.

 

[Just.A.Fan]

Over the course of her first year in the WNBA, my impression of Clark grew more favorably. Initially, I thought she was more suited to be an off guard, now I think she can be an excellent point guard … if she cuts down on turnovers. The obstacle to this lies not so much with her as with her fans. If Pinicheiro, Vandersloot or Bird had the current expanded season at the peak of their careers, Clark would not yet have the season record for assists, yet she would still have the season record for turnovers. No one in the history of the WNBA has been turning the ball over at Clark’s rate. This is due in part to the fast pace in high possession offense she drives, but if you defend her on that, you fairly should consider that in her assist totals. Her fans that consider Clark the GOAT already do not and that contributes to the tail wagging the dog in terms of coaching her to be the best point guard she can be.

I also now believe that Clark could be a better defensive player than I previously gave her credit. But why should she? Once again, her fans defend her as GOAT material in the absence of being a two way player. The NBA players in GOAT discussion are all two way players. Only Taurasi in the WNBA might not be considered a two way player, though even she was better than credited, having enjoyed a brief stint in the top ten of career blocks. Moore, Wilson, Catchings, all two way players, but Clark need not be because of the tail wagging the dog. Maybe she could be, but she need not be in the eyes of her fans.

I also became increasingly impressed with Clark’s character off the court. It’s not easy for humans to handle being worshipped, a sense of entitlement ever grows. Clark has been worshipped like no other player before her. I think she has handled it well off the court, but on court we see more evidence of the tail wagging the dog, and I will just leave it at that.

This begs the question of why she should be worshipped so by her fans (and the predictable counter reaction of being vilified in some quarters). Yes, she is a great passer, but Vandersloot, et al sees the court and passes just as well … without the turnovers. More importantly, she is a spectacular shooter, which is why I originally thought she would be more suited as an off guard. She makes shots from a distance that others would seldom take, most never. Yet she only shoots around 35% from three, respectable but not elite. I suspect if she took 3s from a normal distance her percentages may be elite, but why should she do that when the spectacular is what her fans want? It looks like no coach is going to change that as the tail continues to wag the dog.

Meanwhile, her teammates as an upperclassmen to the present on have always had the highest percentages. I arrogantly predicted midseason last year that the Fever’s ceiling for shooting percentage would be 45%, never surpassing the Aces or Liberty. I was wrong. The Fever surpassed 45% and ended at the top. They are even higher if you subtract Clark’s own shooting numbers from the total. In retrospect, why shouldn’t Clark’s teammates have a high shooting percentage when you consider Mitchell’s and Boston’s superstardom in college? Also consider how being teamed up with elite shooters improves Clark’s assist numbers.

I had hopes for White resisting the fan tail wagging the dog and simplifying what Clark’s role should be, restricting her in ways that would lead her to be the best superstar she could be, whether at point guard or off guard. Even if she remains a combo guard she could be given more coaching guidance and restriction. Yet in addition to the spectacular the new fandom that Clark has brought to the league seems to thrive on conflict on and off the court. This is not Clark’s fault, it is the tail wagging the dog. Despite the increase in support of the WNBA, I am not sure that is entirely a good thing.

This was excellent. I normally don't take the time to read long dissertations posted here, as my eyesight isn't that good anymore and so I just don't take the time. I did today because of a comment @Bone Dog made regarding it recently. I don't always agree with him, but I do respect his opinion (well, at least some of the time) .